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>> It is October 24, 2014.

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This is Anne Graham
and Heather Oswald,

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archivist with the Kennesaw
State University Archives.

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We're interviewing
David Nebecker in

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the studios of the Audio
Video Technology Services at

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Kennesaw State
University as part of

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the museums Archives and Rear
Books Oral History Project.

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So, David, can you talk about
your move from Georgia?

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>> In 1998, I was in Atlanta,
still living with John.

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John and I, our relationship had

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started to change and
evolve by that point.

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And so we were still
living together,

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but we were living more as
roommates at that point.

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He had started dating
someone that we both knew,

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which I was completely
comfortable with.

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And I had started
getting used to

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the idea of for the first time
as an adult, being single.

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And I had just gone through

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a really tough battle

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with losing my nephew
through the court system.

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And it was very painful
to be here in Atlanta and

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and not have him as part of
my family, living with me.

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And at that point,

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I thought it was
just a good chance

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to make a move. I
had been visiting.

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I had a close friend,

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Dan zeno who lived
here in Cobb County,

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and he had been transferred to

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Chicago some years earlier.

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And so I would travel up there.

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And the first time
I went to Chicago.

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It was a strange situation where

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you you're driving you
come to the airport,

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and I was excited to see him,

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and we're driving
down the expressway.

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And the skyline was
like the Wizard of Oz.

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And I fell in

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love with the city the
minute I saw that skyline.

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And that's all I
really talked about.

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The next few years was
plotting that move to Chicago.

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John had no interest
in moving to Chicago.

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He had lived in Indiana
and just hated the cold.

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And so as a teacher,

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since I was teaching
at this point,

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I started spending
my summers up there.

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And so I would go up to Chicago

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and I always tried

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to find a friend of a
friend to couch surf,

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just rent a couch
for the summer.

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And they were never nice places.

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I remember one summer,

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there was a guy, friend of

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a friend, and I didn't know him,

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and he offered me his
couch for the summer,

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I don't know who does
that kind of stuff,

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even in these small studio
or one bedroom places.

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And he had a one bedroom place,

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and it was right up
against the L tracks.

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And in Chicago,
trains are elevated.

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And so the train literally

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is driving by your window
every few minutes.

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And I thought that sounds
interesting, and it is cheap.

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And so I'm like,
yeah, I'll do that.

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And so, you know,
spent this summer.

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And this was the most memorable
of all those summers.

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And I'd spend my days
at different museums

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doing research and preparing
for my upcoming school year,

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and the lessons that
I'd be teaching

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the students and living in

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this one bedroom with a stranger
sleeping in the bedroom

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and me sleeping on the
sofa every few minutes,

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all of the walls shaking and

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the pictures on
the walls shaking.

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And I couldn't hear the
TV for a few minutes.

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It was really an
interesting experience.

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But I still loved it.

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Even though it was crazy and so

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different from how I
was living here in

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Atlanta, it felt right.

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And so at that point,

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I packed everything up.

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I had a little Volkswagen Cabrio

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convertible at the time
and talked to John.

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And I found I'd
been recruited by

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a company out of Kansas City.

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I had worked my way through
college with Corning labs

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and that's how I paid to
attend here at Kennesaw.

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And one of my
co-workers had been

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recruited by this start up

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out of Kansas City
called Cerner.

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And Cerner was on
the cutting edge

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of hospital information systems

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and putting all the
medical records

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online and that being seamless.

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And they were looking
for people who

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understood laboratory
systems and

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how things work
in hospital labs,

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and so forth, and also
could deal with people.

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She had told them
about me and they

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really wanted me to
join the company.

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And I said I'll only

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join the company if you'll
let me live in Chicago.

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And they said, okay,

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we'll let you live in Chicago,

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but you realize that you
have to travel every week.

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And so for the first year,

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I lived in Chicago
on the weekends

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and Sunday night
through Thursday night,

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I was in a different
city living.

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I got a chance to live all
over the country for a while.

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My first assignment through
Cerner was in Fargo.

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And it was at Lenox Mall,

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and it was Christmas.

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I think it was either the
day after sale or it was

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Christmas Eve and I was
getting last minute pieces.

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And I knew that an assignment
was going to be coming up.

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And I get the phone call,

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and they said, we
have your assignment.

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We found the hospital
that you're going to be

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working at and I
said, "Where is it?

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I'm very excited about this."
And they said, "Fargo."

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And I said, "Really,
where is it going to be?"

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And they said, "No,
really, it's Fargo."

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And so I thought,

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I'm at Lenox. Let me
see what I can find.

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And so they didn't have
anything that in my mind,

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I would be wearing in
Fargo for a winter.

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And so I think I am going
to Burlington or something.

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And so I showed up in Fargo

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and stereotypical
Fargo winter clothes,

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which was the huge Russianesque
hat and the big fur,

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pelt dog collard
coat and everything.

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And it just looked like a fool.

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They thought I was
making fun of them.

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And after we got past that,

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it was really a
great experience.

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I can say that I've lived
through Fargo winter now.

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And then I lived in Hays,

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Kansas for a while,

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which is in the middle of
the prairie and Kansas City,

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of course, and Baton
Rouge, Louisiana.

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And so I really got to see some

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interesting places
around the country.

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But I got tired of traveling.

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That was tough being on the road

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and I didn't feel
like I could really

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connect with people in Chicago.

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And so I found another
company that was

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Dean Foods and they were

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impressed with my resume and

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asked if I'd be interested
and join there.

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I did and then they put
me on the road again.

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So now I'm back

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on the road and I'm traveling
to all the dairies around

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the country and they're not in

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much larger places
than I was in before,

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but I got to see a whole new set

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of small towns in the country.

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And I stayed with them
for a couple of years.

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And really, I stayed with
Dean Foods until 2004,

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or in 2004 is when I got a
call from Lee one day at work.

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He was my partner who I had
met in 2000 and he said,

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the mayor of San Francisco

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is letting gays and
lesbians get married.

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He said, you want to go to San
Francisco and get married.

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So I thought, well,
how romantic is that?

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And so, of course,
we flew out to

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San Francisco and we can
talk about that in a moment.

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But when I came
back to Dean Foods

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from my marriage certificate,

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and I planted it down in
human resources and said,

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I'd like to sign Lee up
for spousal benefits.

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They didn't seem to
agree on that happening,

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and that caused a bit
of a controversy.

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And I ended up having
to fight that.

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And we came to a
separation agreement

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that required me
to stay silent on

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the subject because
I had produced a lot

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of media coverage that
they didn't want,

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and there were
protest in Dallas,

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which was where the
corporate headquarters was.

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And then we had our own protest

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in Chicago against Dean Foods,

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not allowing us to
have spousal benefits.

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And so then when

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my year of forced silence
was about to end,

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they had made the

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public announcement that
they were going to be

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extending spousal benefits
to all their employees.

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So in the end, I felt that
everything worked out fine.

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And it allowed me to
move on and prepare

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for my new life and
starting a family.

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>> So you talked

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about [inaudible] what
grades did you teach?

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>> When I graduated
from Georgia State,

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the first position
that I took and I

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graduated in December which

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is a tough time for a
teacher to get a role,

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but I was as a male in
early childhood which is

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the elementary grades and

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also I had graduated
top of my class.

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We didn't really
have class rankings,

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but based on my GPA and

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six consecutive quarters
of Dean's list I

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figured out where I fell and so

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it was easy for me to
find a position and I

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was hired immediately in
the middle of the year with

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the school called Humphreys
Elementary which is on

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the south side of
Atlanta and the teacher

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had for lack of better words,

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had abandoned her
role there and so

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the children just had subs
for quite a long time I

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guess before I arrived and

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it was a tough position
coming into a classroom where

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the children really did not have

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any set schedule or structure
in the classroom and they

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had challenges at home
as well and I think

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it was a tough role for

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a new teacher to
find themselves in,

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but I made the best of it

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and learned as much as
I could from that role.

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But I also quickly realized
that I couldn't stay

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there and be happy as a teacher.

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There was just too
many challenges

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for someone fresh out of

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college and so I started
looking around at my options,

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and there was
another school that

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had a position opened
up in Buckhead,

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Sarah Smith and it's
behind Phipps Plaza.

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And I later found
out that they said

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they had 150 resume
applicants or something,

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some of crazy number
for this one position,

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but it was a very
well regarded school

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and just it clicked.

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The interview went wonderfully
and the principal offered

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me a position there and I
absolutely loved that school.

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The environment
was just perfect.

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I was able to be
somewhat out at work

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and I love the position

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there as a teacher and probably
had I stayed in Atlanta,

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I would have stayed
at Sarah Smith for

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some time just because
it was so comfortable,

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but like I said I really
needed to get out and move on.

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>> So can you talk about

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your relationship with
Lee your fellow partner?

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>> Yeah. So Lee and

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I were both happy
single men in Chicago.

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He had just left Boston
and moved to Chicago,

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and of course I had
moved up to Chicago from

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Atlanta and it was just by
chance that we met each other.

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I had been out with

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some friends and we had
had a dinner party,

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and one of them was
a Bartender had

254
00:12:19,865 --> 00:12:24,245
a leather bar in town and
so he said you know what,

255
00:12:24,245 --> 00:12:27,200
why don't you guys I'll meet
back at the bar later on

256
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,840
and hang out with me while

257
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,660
I work and I thought,
that sounds like fun.

258
00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:34,160
But I had some downtime

259
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,250
before things would start
getting going at the bar

260
00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:38,900
and so there was

261
00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:42,005
a little a little
neighborhood bar called

262
00:12:42,005 --> 00:12:44,570
Big Chicks that was
across the street

263
00:12:44,570 --> 00:12:46,265
from his condo and

264
00:12:46,265 --> 00:12:47,660
I thought well, let's go
over there and hang out.

265
00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:49,820
I'm not much of a drinker,
so when I go to a bar,

266
00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:52,130
it's usually just coke
and things like that.

267
00:12:52,130 --> 00:12:54,095
I just people watch and

268
00:12:54,095 --> 00:12:57,020
so I get to Big Chicks
and it's just packed it

269
00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,960
could be and and I look across

270
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,515
the bar and there's
this really tall.

271
00:13:03,515 --> 00:13:07,910
Later I found xix
foot six blonde

272
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:13,010
guy that looks like Prince
William, and I'm like,

273
00:13:13,010 --> 00:13:15,770
I think my jaw
just hit the floor

274
00:13:15,770 --> 00:13:19,850
and so being a very shy
person of course there

275
00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:22,415
was no way I was going
to approach him and so

276
00:13:22,415 --> 00:13:26,420
I studied him from afar and
all that and thought well,

277
00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:28,340
maybe I can make eye contact
with them or something

278
00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:31,190
and that wasn't working

279
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:34,190
and so it was like 200 people

280
00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:39,530
there and he gets up and
leaves and I'm like,

281
00:13:39,530 --> 00:13:41,900
I beat myself up in my mind

282
00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:44,270
and I walk over and I just
sit down in his stool

283
00:13:44,270 --> 00:13:49,530
and soak and all of a
sudden I hear someone say,

284
00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:53,020
I think you stole my stool
and look up and it's him,

285
00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:54,805
and I said I'm sorry.

286
00:13:54,805 --> 00:14:01,030
So we started talking
and it was just great.

287
00:14:01,030 --> 00:14:03,620
And so then he says well,

288
00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:05,420
I want to go to another
bar because he had just

289
00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:07,580
happened to find
a parking space.

290
00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:08,930
He was driving by the bar and he

291
00:14:08,930 --> 00:14:10,550
just happened to find
a parking space and

292
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:11,930
pulled off just to

293
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:13,745
check it out 'cause he had
never been there before.

294
00:14:13,745 --> 00:14:15,050
And he's like well,

295
00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:16,160
I wasn't going to stay here,

296
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:17,300
do you want to go
with me and we'll

297
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:18,725
go to another place and so

298
00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:22,570
I said sure, yeah.

299
00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:23,920
I thought this is

300
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,970
the guy that I wanted
to meet and here he is,

301
00:14:27,970 --> 00:14:30,220
and he's talking to me
and so I get into his car

302
00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:33,410
and I think we got out of the
parking lot and he's like,

303
00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:35,390
let's just skip the bars,

304
00:14:35,390 --> 00:14:38,300
and so I'm like I've game for

305
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:43,595
that and so we went
back to my place

306
00:14:43,595 --> 00:14:47,090
and the next morning

307
00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:52,730
we joke about this now
because he's well,

308
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:54,500
let's go out for brunch,

309
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:57,140
and so we go to brunch
and I'm looking across

310
00:14:57,140 --> 00:14:59,960
and still processing
what's happening.

311
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:04,085
It's just not something
that I do a lot,

312
00:15:04,085 --> 00:15:07,205
but then I'm like
what is his name.

313
00:15:07,205 --> 00:15:10,730
I didn't even know this
guy's name and I thought,

314
00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:13,175
how am I going to find out
his name without looking

315
00:15:13,175 --> 00:15:16,220
crazy and there was
no way at that point,

316
00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:19,025
and so finally I just
said what is your name,

317
00:15:19,025 --> 00:15:21,110
and of course he
started cracking

318
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:23,600
up and told me and
we learned that we

319
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,495
both loved Frank
Sinatra music and

320
00:15:26,495 --> 00:15:27,860
politics and there were

321
00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:29,690
just so many connections
that came out

322
00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:31,625
of that brunch that
we started dating,

323
00:15:31,625 --> 00:15:33,410
but because we were both happily

324
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:35,420
single we didn't
want to go too fast.

325
00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:38,720
So we would only see each
other x number of times a week

326
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,340
and we had a very strict

327
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:42,395
because we didn't
want to push things.

328
00:15:42,395 --> 00:15:44,300
So after about a year,

329
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:47,630
we decided that we were
moving together and we

330
00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:51,080
did that and then we
lived in my place.

331
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,270
By then I had
rehabbed a condo on

332
00:15:53,270 --> 00:15:56,030
Lakeshore Drive and he
moved in with me in

333
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:58,550
this tiny one bedroom
overlooking Lake Michigan

334
00:15:58,550 --> 00:16:02,570
and that wasn't enough room
for me in a six foot six guy

335
00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,780
and so then we found
a three bedroom that

336
00:16:05,780 --> 00:16:08,990
overlooked the
Halstead Street which

337
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:10,820
is across the street from

338
00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:13,400
side tracks and we
were in the thick

339
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,100
of gay culture in Chicago.

340
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:18,050
And it was fun.

341
00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:23,315
We had a great time in those
early years in Chicago,

342
00:16:23,315 --> 00:16:27,395
but we both wanted to start
a family and so slowly we

343
00:16:27,395 --> 00:16:30,350
plotted to settle down

344
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:34,740
and start that new
journey together.

345
00:16:34,740 --> 00:16:36,910
>> And so how have
you been in Chicago?

346
00:16:36,910 --> 00:16:39,835
>> I hadn't been
there for very long,

347
00:16:39,835 --> 00:16:41,335
because I was traveling.

348
00:16:41,335 --> 00:16:45,025
So I really by the
time I met Lee,

349
00:16:45,025 --> 00:16:51,460
I had started Deans like
month or so before that.

350
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:54,040
And before that, I was only
there on the weekends.

351
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,420
So I would say that I
really felt like I was

352
00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:00,565
full time in Chicago

353
00:17:00,565 --> 00:17:03,865
just for a month or two
and the same with him.

354
00:17:03,865 --> 00:17:05,530
So it's just all by chance

355
00:17:05,530 --> 00:17:07,825
that we connected
the way we did.

356
00:17:07,825 --> 00:17:09,280
And the fact that we were still

357
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,455
together is just
amazing and great.

358
00:17:14,455 --> 00:17:16,660
>> So I'm going to ask you

359
00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:19,780
a typical question. Talk
about your children.

360
00:17:19,780 --> 00:17:22,345
>> That's so open ended.

361
00:17:22,345 --> 00:17:28,945
So we started looking
at different ways.

362
00:17:28,945 --> 00:17:30,250
I guess I have to take a step

363
00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:31,915
back before we start
talking about the children.

364
00:17:31,915 --> 00:17:34,420
I have to talk about
my in laws first.

365
00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:37,810
Because I come from a
family with a sister,

366
00:17:37,810 --> 00:17:39,460
of course, and she's
had four kids.

367
00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:43,075
So my parents they're
fine with grandkids.

368
00:17:43,075 --> 00:17:45,940
They've had them already.

369
00:17:45,940 --> 00:17:47,800
But Lee was an only child,

370
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,215
and he came out to them and

371
00:17:50,215 --> 00:17:53,230
it was tough because
they processed that

372
00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:56,410
differently than my
parents did because they

373
00:17:56,410 --> 00:17:59,995
also mourned the loss of
having grandchildren,

374
00:17:59,995 --> 00:18:03,010
and that was tough for them.

375
00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:05,320
But once they get
past all of that,

376
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,935
they became full
fledged supporters

377
00:18:08,935 --> 00:18:11,260
of Lee and the Gay
Rights movement.

378
00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:15,190
And so they ended

379
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:16,960
up founding a chapter of

380
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,930
P flag in their
hometown in Michigan.

381
00:18:19,930 --> 00:18:23,320
And when I first met them,

382
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,390
and finally left we were
only maybe two weeks

383
00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:27,490
in to dating when he said,

384
00:18:27,490 --> 00:18:29,755
I have to go out to my
parents. Do you want to ride?

385
00:18:29,755 --> 00:18:31,870
So I knew I'd hooked
him at that point.

386
00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:34,255
He was taking me to Michigan
to see his parents.

387
00:18:34,255 --> 00:18:36,670
I was a little nervous about
it though, but I get there.

388
00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:39,580
And he had warned me
about his parents.

389
00:18:39,580 --> 00:18:41,830
And so I thought, well,
what am I in for.

390
00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:45,520
And I get there and
his dad's Cadillac,

391
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,930
because they're
outside of Detroit,

392
00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:48,820
so you have to drive
American cars.

393
00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:55,870
The tag was Gayson,

394
00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:59,740
and that was his Michigan
tag for his car.

395
00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:02,305
And he could not have
been a prouder father.

396
00:19:02,305 --> 00:19:06,925
And he took every
opportunity to talk

397
00:19:06,925 --> 00:19:09,580
about the plight of

398
00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:11,950
gays and lesbians and how
unfair our lives were.

399
00:19:11,950 --> 00:19:14,845
And so I was just stunned at
what I had stumbled into.

400
00:19:14,845 --> 00:19:16,915
And they were just wonderful,

401
00:19:16,915 --> 00:19:19,420
we've just hit it off so well.

402
00:19:19,420 --> 00:19:23,080
And so they would
take us places and

403
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,770
get us to do things in
Michigan, HRC dinners there.

404
00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:28,840
And all the gay
stuff that they were

405
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,420
involved in and they
required us to participate.

406
00:19:31,420 --> 00:19:33,910
And Rosie O'Donnell was
doing cruises then,

407
00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:40,075
she was in a relationship
with a lady named Kelly.

408
00:19:40,075 --> 00:19:43,375
And Kelly had started
a cruise business,

409
00:19:43,375 --> 00:19:46,300
a travel business aimed
at LGBT families,

410
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,940
and Mike and Jan,

411
00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:50,890
my in laws had started going on

412
00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:52,990
these cruises for gay families.

413
00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:56,200
And there's tons of
families with kids,

414
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,520
and they would take over
a whole cruiseship.

415
00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,200
So it's thousands of people,

416
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,720
and it was just
magical for them.

417
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:02,470
And they would come back from

418
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:03,310
a cruise and they would just

419
00:20:03,310 --> 00:20:05,650
talk and talk and talk
about their experiences.

420
00:20:05,650 --> 00:20:07,030
And so finally,

421
00:20:07,030 --> 00:20:08,545
they talked us into going on.

422
00:20:08,545 --> 00:20:10,360
And so we did and

423
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,240
we just fell in love
with the whole idea.

424
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,130
And we both had wanted
kids and that was one

425
00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:17,470
of the things that attracted
us to each other too.

426
00:20:17,470 --> 00:20:21,175
But to be surrounded
by LGBT families

427
00:20:21,175 --> 00:20:24,550
and all different
families who had adopted,

428
00:20:24,550 --> 00:20:26,050
who had gone through
the foster system,

429
00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:27,895
who had become blended families,

430
00:20:27,895 --> 00:20:29,830
and who had gone
through surrogacy.

431
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:31,840
And so then we started thinking,

432
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,655
well, how are we going
to start our family.

433
00:20:33,655 --> 00:20:35,095
And that took probably,

434
00:20:35,095 --> 00:20:37,360
I would say a year of

435
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,400
research on whether we're

436
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,930
going to go the
international route,

437
00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:43,105
and we had a lot of
different choices.

438
00:20:43,105 --> 00:20:45,610
And we pretty much decided
at that point that

439
00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:47,950
we were going to go through

440
00:20:47,950 --> 00:20:51,310
Guatemala because we had

441
00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:53,875
friends who had done that
and we met on the ship,

442
00:20:53,875 --> 00:20:56,170
And the doors of

443
00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:58,120
different countries
were closing quickly,

444
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,325
and Guatemala was
still an option.

445
00:21:00,325 --> 00:21:03,790
But that door closed right
before we were ready.

446
00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:05,740
As we were getting ready
to start the process,

447
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:06,760
the door was closing,

448
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,470
and we just didn't
want to take the risk

449
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:11,530
of start trying to
start a family,

450
00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:13,360
and then our hearts
being broken by

451
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,710
not getting the child
that we wanted.

452
00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:20,400
So my mother had
been a foster child,

453
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,515
and so I was familiar with,

454
00:21:22,515 --> 00:21:26,490
the pain that she had
experienced as a foster child.

455
00:21:26,490 --> 00:21:30,310
She told me, just
sad stories about,

456
00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:39,370
Christmases and, the loss of
true stability in family.

457
00:21:39,370 --> 00:21:41,875
And so I thought,

458
00:21:41,875 --> 00:21:43,825
let's explore that option.

459
00:21:43,825 --> 00:21:47,080
And so we started looking
around and we came in touch

460
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,085
with agency in Oak Park,
Illinois called Hephzibah.

461
00:21:51,085 --> 00:21:53,350
And there was a director

462
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:56,920
there over family services
named Devita Williams.

463
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,615
And she and I just
hit off really well.

464
00:21:58,615 --> 00:21:59,740
She was a lesbian

465
00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:07,015
and she really helped us
through that process of

466
00:22:07,015 --> 00:22:09,280
becoming a foster
family and know

467
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,340
what to expect with
children who've gone

468
00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:13,660
through the system
and all the things

469
00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:15,070
that they faced and how to

470
00:22:15,070 --> 00:22:18,520
handle that and to make
them feel safe again.

471
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,780
And so we had to take classes to

472
00:22:22,780 --> 00:22:26,920
get licensed and we
took off our classes.

473
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,440
And they had
interviews and said,

474
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,130
what type of child would
you, ideally like?

475
00:22:33,130 --> 00:22:34,720
And so, we were thinking.

476
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,430
We want a baby,

477
00:22:37,530 --> 00:22:42,740
and preferably Caucasian
because we felt like,

478
00:22:43,620 --> 00:22:46,630
they're already coming
to two dad family,

479
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:48,280
which is one thing

480
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,960
that's going to be very
different and do we

481
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,100
want now to mix ethnicities
in there as well?

482
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:55,150
Is that going to
be another thing

483
00:22:55,150 --> 00:22:56,380
that they're going to
have to deal with?

484
00:22:56,380 --> 00:22:58,060
So we're trying
to look at what's

485
00:22:58,060 --> 00:22:59,650
going to be easiest
for the child?

486
00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:00,925
So we had figured,

487
00:23:00,925 --> 00:23:03,040
baby, Caucasian, that's
going to be easy.

488
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,035
We'll do just one,
we'll be fine.

489
00:23:05,035 --> 00:23:06,970
And of course, that's

490
00:23:06,970 --> 00:23:08,695
what pretty much everyone
was looking for.

491
00:23:08,695 --> 00:23:10,840
And she's like, it's
going to take years,

492
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,060
so be prepared to wait.

493
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:16,210
And we're like, that's
okay. We'll wait.

494
00:23:16,210 --> 00:23:19,765
And so we're running

495
00:23:19,765 --> 00:23:22,450
a computer forensics
company at this point.

496
00:23:22,450 --> 00:23:24,970
And I was working out

497
00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:27,520
at the front desk as
the receptionist,

498
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,725
answering phone calls,
doing office work,

499
00:23:29,725 --> 00:23:31,810
and keeping the office running.

500
00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:34,960
And so I get a call one day.

501
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,630
We still had a little bit
of house inspections to

502
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:42,370
go through before we finally got

503
00:23:42,370 --> 00:23:45,340
our certificate for foster.

504
00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:46,855
It's just start fostering.

505
00:23:46,855 --> 00:23:51,190
But I get a call, and
it's Hephzibah they said,

506
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:53,560
I know you've got

507
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,960
still another visit for
us to inspect your house,

508
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,045
but I think we have

509
00:23:58,045 --> 00:24:00,820
two children for you
is what she said.

510
00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:03,880
And I'm like, what do
you mean two children?

511
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,400
And so,

512
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,795
I was so floored

513
00:24:07,795 --> 00:24:09,490
because I wasn't expecting
this phone call.

514
00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:11,335
And she said, well,

515
00:24:11,335 --> 00:24:12,880
we don't know a lot about
them because they're

516
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,055
just being transferred
over to us.

517
00:24:15,055 --> 00:24:17,770
But she said they're
three and four.

518
00:24:17,770 --> 00:24:18,730
And I wrote I was

519
00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:20,155
writing all this down
because I was like,

520
00:24:20,155 --> 00:24:22,855
I cannot forget all this
because I told all this stuff.

521
00:24:22,855 --> 00:24:28,510
And she had their names and
she gave me their names,

522
00:24:28,510 --> 00:24:29,620
and she said, three and

523
00:24:29,620 --> 00:24:32,485
four years old and she said
they've been in five homes.

524
00:24:32,485 --> 00:24:34,210
And I thought, five homes,

525
00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:36,430
what's happened to
these children?

526
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:38,590
What's caused this to happen?

527
00:24:38,590 --> 00:24:41,260
So she gave me what little
information they had.

528
00:24:41,260 --> 00:24:43,780
But one of the things that
really stuck in my mind

529
00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:48,625
was the fact that in
each of those homes,

530
00:24:48,625 --> 00:24:51,730
they had been told that
was their forever family.

531
00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:53,470
And they were going
to be adopted

532
00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:55,480
and this is your new home,

533
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,675
and then that home would fall
apart when it got too hard,

534
00:24:58,675 --> 00:25:01,255
and then they would be ripped
out and put somewhere else.

535
00:25:01,255 --> 00:25:05,050
And I thought, that's
just not fair for kids,

536
00:25:05,050 --> 00:25:09,475
that age to be so
broken by a system,

537
00:25:09,475 --> 00:25:13,340
all these adults have
failed them in their lives.

538
00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:16,510
And it's funny because I still

539
00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:18,700
have that paper with
all those notes.

540
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:21,610
It was one of those things
that I kept that and I looked

541
00:25:21,610 --> 00:25:23,440
back at just how
little information

542
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,420
I had about these two kids.

543
00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:27,775
And this was a Wednesday.

544
00:25:27,775 --> 00:25:30,670
And then I said, well, this
is so much to take in.

545
00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:32,440
And she said, well, we need to

546
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,020
know by Friday morning

547
00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:37,180
because they need to be
placed by Friday morning.

548
00:25:37,180 --> 00:25:40,650
And I'm like, we

549
00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:42,390
haven't even got our
final inspection done.

550
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:44,100
We don't have
bedroom set up yet,

551
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:45,810
and she said, we can get

552
00:25:45,810 --> 00:25:47,520
the final inspection done
if you're interested.

553
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,920
And so I quickly
went to his office.

554
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,010
And my heart's racing
and I tell him

555
00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:54,780
this and we're
looking at each other

556
00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:56,670
like or their eyes
as big as saucers,

557
00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:58,605
like, what are we going
to do about this?

558
00:25:58,605 --> 00:26:00,585
And we both said, yes.

559
00:26:00,585 --> 00:26:04,360
And so we called her back
and we said, we'll do this.

560
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,030
We can do this. And at this
point it's just fostering.

561
00:26:07,030 --> 00:26:08,320
We're just fostering
these children,

562
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,155
but they are open for adoption,

563
00:26:11,155 --> 00:26:13,390
because it's clear at

564
00:26:13,390 --> 00:26:14,500
this point they're not
going to be able to

565
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:15,895
go back to their birth parents

566
00:26:15,895 --> 00:26:18,235
because of the
circumstances there.

567
00:26:18,235 --> 00:26:21,670
And so, we didn't forget we

568
00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:25,105
lived in uptown in Chicago
at that point in a house,

569
00:26:25,105 --> 00:26:30,460
and I sent out a mess email
to my neighbors and I said,

570
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:33,130
we've got two kids
that are coming.

571
00:26:33,130 --> 00:26:37,945
We're not ready. And
the whole neighborhood

572
00:26:37,945 --> 00:26:40,780
got together and put their
bedrooms together for us.

573
00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:44,230
And we were bringing beds and,

574
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:47,065
childproofing, all the outlets.

575
00:26:47,065 --> 00:26:48,820
We were doing
everything, like crazy.

576
00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:50,830
And I was so touched that

577
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:53,860
the neighborhood all helped us,

578
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:56,275
get ready for these
two little kids.

579
00:26:56,275 --> 00:26:58,315
And the morning they came,

580
00:26:58,315 --> 00:27:02,245
we had a little banner on
the front which I kept,

581
00:27:02,245 --> 00:27:05,485
it just said, welcome
home, Michael and Braden.

582
00:27:05,485 --> 00:27:08,710
And they came in and
they were so scared.

583
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:11,830
They've been through
this routine

584
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:14,320
before and it has
never turned out good.

585
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,940
So we kept everything really

586
00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:17,440
calm and I took
very few pictures.

587
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,390
I snuck a few pictures that day,

588
00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:22,680
but I had been told try not

589
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,445
to make this too different
for them because,

590
00:27:26,445 --> 00:27:29,750
it's tough as it is without you,

591
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:31,600
trying to make it
more than it is.

592
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,795
And so we had been told what
their favorite snacks were.

593
00:27:34,795 --> 00:27:37,330
We had all their favorite
foods there in the house,

594
00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:38,590
and they were very

595
00:27:38,590 --> 00:27:40,840
surprised that we knew
their favorite foods.

596
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,580
And it just was so nice,

597
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:47,230
but it was so scary
at the same time.

598
00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:49,360
They were scared,
we were scared.

599
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:51,655
And it was tough.

600
00:27:51,655 --> 00:27:53,530
It was really tough those

601
00:27:53,530 --> 00:27:56,020
one of the first two
years was tough.

602
00:27:56,020 --> 00:28:00,580
And understandably
because they had really

603
00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:03,070
learned not to trust
adults because there

604
00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:05,755
was no adults that they
could really ever depend on.

605
00:28:05,755 --> 00:28:07,720
And we knew at that point,

606
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:08,965
it's going to take a long time

607
00:28:08,965 --> 00:28:10,930
to build that trust back up.

608
00:28:10,930 --> 00:28:14,215
So that's how the
kids came to us.

609
00:28:14,215 --> 00:28:16,030
>> Do you want to
talk a little bit

610
00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:18,295
about their life's again?

611
00:28:18,295 --> 00:28:20,030
>> Yeah.

612
00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:23,220
I said it was hard. And when

613
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:25,515
I say it was hard,
it was really hard.

614
00:28:25,515 --> 00:28:28,590
I remember, they were constantly

615
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:31,350
testing us what we
discovered early on,

616
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:34,500
and this is what I talked to
now with families who are

617
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,180
taking that same journey of

618
00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:38,385
starting a family foster system.

619
00:28:38,385 --> 00:28:41,235
They're going to test you to

620
00:28:41,235 --> 00:28:44,730
see if you're really
going to stick

621
00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:46,200
by them and you're
going to really

622
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,000
stick with them and
be their parent.

623
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,655
And I would be driving down
the road. I remember one day.

624
00:28:53,655 --> 00:28:56,715
I was just exhausted at

625
00:28:56,715 --> 00:28:58,740
how much energy they had

626
00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:02,205
and everything that
they would be doing,

627
00:29:02,205 --> 00:29:04,740
acting up and acting out.

628
00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:06,540
And so I'm already exhausted.

629
00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:09,135
I'm driving home with
them in the back seat,

630
00:29:09,135 --> 00:29:11,910
and they started throwing
their shoes at my head,

631
00:29:11,910 --> 00:29:13,695
trying to hurt me.

632
00:29:13,695 --> 00:29:16,305
And I just lost.
I started crying.

633
00:29:16,305 --> 00:29:18,240
I was just tired and
I thought, here,

634
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,075
now I'm getting pelted
with shoes on my head.

635
00:29:21,075 --> 00:29:24,360
And so I pull over
and start crying.

636
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,700
[LAUGHTER] Pure exhausted.

637
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:28,950
And they said,

638
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:30,870
what are you crying
about you cry baby?

639
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:32,730
[LAUGHTER].

640
00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:35,160
I thought, can I do this?

641
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,205
That was what I consider
my lowest point.

642
00:29:38,205 --> 00:29:39,540
So I called the agency,

643
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:41,400
and I'm like crying
on the phone.

644
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,440
And they said,

645
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,680
they talked me back up
to where I need to be.

646
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,570
And I really didn't
have any help then.

647
00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:50,565
They had always encouraged
me to have respite

648
00:29:50,565 --> 00:29:51,660
to someone to come
in and just give me

649
00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:53,430
a break once in a while.

650
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:57,420
So I finally accepted that
and that really helped.

651
00:29:57,420 --> 00:29:59,700
But I would not give
up on these kids.

652
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:01,410
Le and I were determined to show

653
00:30:01,410 --> 00:30:03,825
them that no matter
what they did,

654
00:30:03,825 --> 00:30:05,265
they were going to be with us.

655
00:30:05,265 --> 00:30:10,350
And so we started regular life,

656
00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:12,525
got them enrolled in school,

657
00:30:12,525 --> 00:30:20,640
and settled in the
neighborhood and routines.

658
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,905
But it wasn't until
adoption day,

659
00:30:22,905 --> 00:30:24,630
which is what they
told me what happened,

660
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:26,190
but it wasn't until

661
00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:29,535
the adoption day that
they really trusted us,

662
00:30:29,535 --> 00:30:31,545
that we weren't going
to go anywhere.

663
00:30:31,545 --> 00:30:34,515
And as that day approached,

664
00:30:34,515 --> 00:30:36,765
Illinois requires that
you wait two years.

665
00:30:36,765 --> 00:30:38,700
You have to foster your children

666
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:41,835
two years before you
can legally adopt them,

667
00:30:41,835 --> 00:30:46,260
and we timed it so
that we were able to

668
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:48,600
adopt them and have our
court date the exact

669
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,000
same day as the day
that they came to us.

670
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,070
So to the date two years later,

671
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:55,050
we went before the judge,

672
00:30:55,050 --> 00:30:56,190
which is usually a very

673
00:30:56,190 --> 00:30:57,810
simple ceremony and
all that stuff,

674
00:30:57,810 --> 00:30:59,910
but the new Beckers don't
do anything simply.

675
00:30:59,910 --> 00:31:02,490
So we had all of our friends.

676
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:04,170
We packed the courthouse with

677
00:31:04,170 --> 00:31:06,420
friends and people
from the agency

678
00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:07,890
that we knew and

679
00:31:07,890 --> 00:31:10,740
the principal from their school
and their teachers came.

680
00:31:10,740 --> 00:31:13,050
Everybody came just to

681
00:31:13,050 --> 00:31:15,780
witness the creation
of this family.

682
00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:18,000
And the judge was stunned.

683
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,920
He just stopped the proceedings

684
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,980
and he talked about taking

685
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:24,840
a village and how touched he

686
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,770
was to see that this family
had so much support.

687
00:31:28,770 --> 00:31:31,920
And so he spoke about

688
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,010
that and he took the
decree and he tapped each

689
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:38,025
of them on the heads and

690
00:31:38,025 --> 00:31:40,545
pronounced us a family forever

691
00:31:40,545 --> 00:31:43,275
and everything changed
at that moment.

692
00:31:43,275 --> 00:31:47,190
It was just like a big weight
had been lifted off them,

693
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:49,290
and they knew they were stuck

694
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:51,450
with us as we say [LAUGHTER].

695
00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:55,770
And so that's when
it got much easier.

696
00:31:55,770 --> 00:31:57,300
It's still challenging
as a parent.

697
00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:59,235
Our life did change.

698
00:31:59,235 --> 00:32:03,120
We were at that point living
like I said, in uptown,

699
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,860
we had left Boys Town,

700
00:32:04,860 --> 00:32:06,690
which was where
all the bars were,

701
00:32:06,690 --> 00:32:07,710
because we didn't
think that was a

702
00:32:07,710 --> 00:32:09,135
great place to raise a good.

703
00:32:09,135 --> 00:32:10,980
And we're in uptown.

704
00:32:10,980 --> 00:32:13,365
But city life was hard with

705
00:32:13,365 --> 00:32:17,370
two kids because I was the
overprotective parent.

706
00:32:17,370 --> 00:32:20,310
And so when they
would go biking,

707
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:21,810
I wanted to be
right beside them,

708
00:32:21,810 --> 00:32:24,285
and I just felt like their
lease was awfully short.

709
00:32:24,285 --> 00:32:27,780
And the school was a
challenge as well.

710
00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:29,655
We had found the best
school that we could,

711
00:32:29,655 --> 00:32:31,740
and I had become very active

712
00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:34,320
in the school and even
set on the school board.

713
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,685
Which we call the LSC
and won a slot on that.

714
00:32:38,685 --> 00:32:41,130
And so we were extremely
active in the school.

715
00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:45,975
But it was still difficult
to make it work in the city.

716
00:32:45,975 --> 00:32:47,760
And so then we

717
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,100
started searching for
communities outside of the city

718
00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:54,030
that had an excellent
school system would be

719
00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:54,870
a community that we'd feel

720
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:56,250
comfortable in that we
could still get into

721
00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:58,785
the city because we're
at heart city people,

722
00:32:58,785 --> 00:33:01,980
and we decided to
move to River forest.

723
00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:04,200
And that's where we live today.

724
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,235
>> Do you want to talk about
Brad letter for her essay?

725
00:33:08,235 --> 00:33:10,620
>> Yeah. So you know we're in

726
00:33:10,620 --> 00:33:14,025
River forest and it's a rigorous
system in their schools.

727
00:33:14,025 --> 00:33:16,790
And one of the requirements in

728
00:33:16,790 --> 00:33:18,680
fourth grade is that
the children learn

729
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,020
how to write a persuasive essay.

730
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:22,520
It's just one of the things that

731
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,425
every fourth grader has to do.

732
00:33:24,425 --> 00:33:28,670
And so the time came for
that process to start,

733
00:33:28,670 --> 00:33:30,545
and it coincided
about the same time

734
00:33:30,545 --> 00:33:33,810
that the president's
inauguration was taking place.

735
00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:41,085
And I remember, for some reason,

736
00:33:41,085 --> 00:33:43,680
it fell on a holiday
or something.

737
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,240
But for some reason, she was

738
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,880
home watching the
inauguration with me.

739
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,310
And we were sitting
there watching it.

740
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:55,440
And he mentioned gays
and lesbians being

741
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,345
allowed to marry who they
love, whomever they love.

742
00:34:00,345 --> 00:34:04,665
And she yelled out, Yes.

743
00:34:04,665 --> 00:34:07,410
We had been to marriage
rallies and things like

744
00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:09,660
that because the
issue was their.

745
00:34:09,660 --> 00:34:11,250
But we had always

746
00:34:11,250 --> 00:34:13,770
downplayed the issue because
we didn't want the children

747
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:15,660
to feel unsafe and
like their family

748
00:34:15,660 --> 00:34:18,450
was not as good as
another family.

749
00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:20,130
And so we really always

750
00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:22,275
down played the issue of
marriage in our family.

751
00:34:22,275 --> 00:34:23,730
They knew that we
had had a wedding in

752
00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:26,835
San Francisco in 2004.

753
00:34:26,835 --> 00:34:28,260
And in their eyes,

754
00:34:28,260 --> 00:34:30,570
as far as they're
concerned, we were married.

755
00:34:30,570 --> 00:34:34,380
But as the issue
started gaining press,

756
00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:36,420
they started wanting to
know what that meant.

757
00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:38,940
And so we would give them
just as much information

758
00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:42,360
as we felt they needed to know
to answer their questions.

759
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,700
But at that moment,

760
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:47,340
I realized that this was
something that was weighing

761
00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:50,790
on her mind that she
would have that reaction.

762
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:52,890
And so I asked her about

763
00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:56,310
that and started listening
to her thoughts.

764
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:59,310
And I was stunned at

765
00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:03,240
ten years old that she had
put any thought into it.

766
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:04,530
And I guess she
really had listened

767
00:35:04,530 --> 00:35:06,360
to the answers I'd given in

768
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,110
her questions before and
everything. So I encouraged her.

769
00:35:10,110 --> 00:35:10,740
I said, well, you know,

770
00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:12,120
she keeps a journal,
and I said well,

771
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,530
you should write some
of this stuff down in

772
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:16,590
your journal and she did.

773
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:21,195
And I mentioned
it to her teacher

774
00:35:21,195 --> 00:35:24,600
and it became the basis

775
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,645
for what she did at school
for a persuasive essay.

776
00:35:27,645 --> 00:35:29,550
And so the teacher,

777
00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:30,795
when it was all done,

778
00:35:30,795 --> 00:35:35,070
she said, you need to really
read your daughter's essay.

779
00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:36,780
And she sent it home,

780
00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:38,265
and I started crying.

781
00:35:38,265 --> 00:35:40,740
And I know you might think
I'm just crying all the time,

782
00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:43,620
but it was so emotional

783
00:35:43,620 --> 00:35:47,220
because I could not
believe the words that she

784
00:35:47,220 --> 00:35:50,880
had put down on paper
from a perspective of a

785
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,530
10-year old and
the title was why

786
00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:56,530
my two dads should be
allowed to get married.

787
00:35:57,180 --> 00:36:02,500
And she wrote about her
life as a foster child

788
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,060
and how she had been in

789
00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:05,485
five different families and

790
00:36:05,485 --> 00:36:07,555
she said they
treated me horribly.

791
00:36:07,555 --> 00:36:10,600
And they always promised

792
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,840
that they would keep me
safe and they never did.

793
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,800
And then she goes on and
talks about us and all of

794
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,740
our quirky qualities and all
the things that we do to

795
00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:23,770
make a family and
make her feel safe.

796
00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:26,365
And it was just but all
from her perspective,

797
00:36:26,365 --> 00:36:29,605
and it was just
unbelievably touching.

798
00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:33,650
And so I shared it with Lee,
of course, immediately.

799
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:38,020
Anyway, so it started
growing legs, I would say,

800
00:36:38,020 --> 00:36:40,750
and people started seeing this.

801
00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:45,280
And so then our local
community paper

802
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,405
picked it up and they
reprinted it and said,

803
00:36:49,405 --> 00:36:52,540
gave her her little column
that day in the paper.

804
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:55,720
And before we knew it,

805
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,580
the essay had caught

806
00:36:57,580 --> 00:37:00,190
the attention of a
national group out of

807
00:37:00,190 --> 00:37:02,800
Washington and they were working

808
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,120
on marriage equality for

809
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,710
the upcoming Supreme
Court cases.

810
00:37:05,710 --> 00:37:07,405
And they said,

811
00:37:07,405 --> 00:37:11,095
this is a perspective
that we haven't seen yet.

812
00:37:11,095 --> 00:37:15,020
And they said, we'd like to
fly you out to Washington DC.

813
00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:20,140
We were stunned. Lee couldn't

814
00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:22,180
go because of
client commitments.

815
00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:25,240
So he and Michael stayed behind.

816
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:26,830
But Mike and Jean,

817
00:37:26,830 --> 00:37:30,440
his parents, who were
active in P flag,

818
00:37:32,670 --> 00:37:35,770
Braden and myself flew out to DC

819
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:37,930
and held a press conference

820
00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:42,520
with these former
congressman and

821
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,745
women and leaders in

822
00:37:45,745 --> 00:37:49,390
the movement on educating

823
00:37:49,390 --> 00:37:51,040
the public on why we should

824
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,560
receive marriage equality
across the country.

825
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,135
And she's sitting
there talking with

826
00:37:58,135 --> 00:38:01,690
congressmen and she
went and visited

827
00:38:01,690 --> 00:38:05,620
our senator's office and had
a meeting with the staff.

828
00:38:05,620 --> 00:38:07,705
And I was just floored.

829
00:38:07,705 --> 00:38:11,560
It was just almost amazing
that here this 10-year old is

830
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,415
walking the halls of
Congress for her family.

831
00:38:15,415 --> 00:38:19,570
And I was so stunned thinking

832
00:38:19,570 --> 00:38:21,805
about where she started in life,

833
00:38:21,805 --> 00:38:24,145
not feeling like
she had a voice and

834
00:38:24,145 --> 00:38:26,995
didn't have any control
over her own life.

835
00:38:26,995 --> 00:38:28,870
And then here at 10,

836
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:30,760
not only does she have
control of her life,

837
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,395
but she's taking control of

838
00:38:32,395 --> 00:38:35,905
her family and
standing up for us.

839
00:38:35,905 --> 00:38:40,915
And I was just in awe
over what was happening.

840
00:38:40,915 --> 00:38:42,370
And it was such a
great thing for

841
00:38:42,370 --> 00:38:44,810
her to experience, I think.

842
00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:47,935
So we got back to Illinois

843
00:38:47,935 --> 00:38:50,755
and we were getting
ready to fight for

844
00:38:50,755 --> 00:38:55,555
the marriage equality bill
to be passed in Illinois.

845
00:38:55,555 --> 00:38:58,120
And so we were
asked to go down to

846
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,700
Springfield and talk to

847
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:01,990
some people who were
on the fence and all,

848
00:39:01,990 --> 00:39:03,520
so we went down there.

849
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,310
And I think it

850
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:09,250
was 20 representatives that
she met face-to-face with,

851
00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:12,340
and she would sit
down in their office.

852
00:39:12,340 --> 00:39:14,830
And she would present her essay,

853
00:39:14,830 --> 00:39:16,570
and she's just very straight.

854
00:39:16,570 --> 00:39:18,370
She didn't know any
other way to do it.

855
00:39:18,370 --> 00:39:21,460
She'd just say, I'd like you
to support marriage equality

856
00:39:21,460 --> 00:39:25,135
and they would try to go around,

857
00:39:25,135 --> 00:39:27,910
well, my constituents
don't really support,

858
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:29,395
and she said, but why?

859
00:39:29,395 --> 00:39:31,795
And then they would try
to go at everything and

860
00:39:31,795 --> 00:39:34,465
she'd say, I don't understand.

861
00:39:34,465 --> 00:39:36,985
Because from her perspective,
it's just common sense.

862
00:39:36,985 --> 00:39:39,310
This is a family.
These are my parents.

863
00:39:39,310 --> 00:39:41,080
I think my parents
should be married.

864
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,415
I'd like my parents
to be married.

865
00:39:42,415 --> 00:39:44,725
And why don't you think
that they should?

866
00:39:44,725 --> 00:39:47,590
And I would crack up in my head,

867
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:51,325
looking at them trying to
explain their positions to her.

868
00:39:51,325 --> 00:39:54,340
And I think that it really made

869
00:39:54,340 --> 00:39:56,380
them really examine what

870
00:39:56,380 --> 00:39:58,360
the heart of this
issue was about.

871
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,620
And so it was funny
because they all,

872
00:40:02,620 --> 00:40:03,460
for some reason, felt like they

873
00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:04,420
had to give her something.

874
00:40:04,420 --> 00:40:06,040
So she ended up at
the end of the day

875
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,085
with I don't even know
how many stuffed animals.

876
00:40:09,085 --> 00:40:10,810
I was carrying them.
She was carrying.

877
00:40:10,810 --> 00:40:13,195
We had so many stuffed animals
that they were giving her.

878
00:40:13,195 --> 00:40:15,430
And she named all of them,

879
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:16,795
and some of them she named after

880
00:40:16,795 --> 00:40:21,100
the rep that she
had met that day,

881
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:24,100
and it was just a great
experience for her.

882
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:27,955
So we went back and of course,

883
00:40:27,955 --> 00:40:30,220
her paper had been tied to

884
00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:32,830
the Supreme Court
case for Prop 8.

885
00:40:32,830 --> 00:40:35,425
So when that decision
was handed down,

886
00:40:35,425 --> 00:40:37,810
her knowing that
each justice had

887
00:40:37,810 --> 00:40:41,410
read her essay was very
empowering to her.

888
00:40:41,410 --> 00:40:46,510
And then the attorneys
that had been representing

889
00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:48,730
the plaintiffs in each of
the cases as they make it to

890
00:40:48,730 --> 00:40:51,670
the appellate courts,
they'd always call.

891
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:55,115
They'd actually email
us and they would say,

892
00:40:55,115 --> 00:40:57,690
can you give us an update
on your family because we'd

893
00:40:57,690 --> 00:40:59,760
like to continue to add

894
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,780
your story to the amicus briefs.

895
00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:05,880
And so we'd give them

896
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,800
an update with what was going on

897
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:08,880
the family and let
them know how the

898
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,260
kids were doing and all that.

899
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:11,880
And I think it just
gave that different

900
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,380
perspective in the case.

901
00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:16,170
And so I've kept all of this in

902
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:20,460
her little memory box
because I think one day,

903
00:41:20,460 --> 00:41:23,345
she's going to look back and
just be amazed that she's

904
00:41:23,345 --> 00:41:27,310
played this little role in
such an important case.

905
00:41:27,310 --> 00:41:30,400
So it's all been
really fascinating.

906
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,730
She did end up getting to act as

907
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:37,240
a page on the floor
for the House Reps

908
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,970
in Illinois and then even

909
00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:43,795
sat in their chair one day
and got to cast a vote.

910
00:41:43,795 --> 00:41:46,345
They had all just
rallied around her.

911
00:41:46,345 --> 00:41:49,120
And there's a little article
in one of the papers

912
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,955
that says page for a day and
shows her sitting there,

913
00:41:51,955 --> 00:41:56,380
looking very in charge of
everything at the desk.

914
00:41:56,380 --> 00:42:00,310
So it was just a great
experience for her.

915
00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:01,630
>> How did your family celebrate

916
00:42:01,630 --> 00:42:03,730
when they realized [inaudible]?

917
00:42:03,730 --> 00:42:05,845
>> Well, at first

918
00:42:05,845 --> 00:42:08,545
when we got a message that
they were going to vote on it,

919
00:42:08,545 --> 00:42:10,210
we raced down to
Springfield because we

920
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:11,890
wanted her to
witness and Michael,

921
00:42:11,890 --> 00:42:14,545
of course, I don't want
to not include him.

922
00:42:14,545 --> 00:42:17,365
He was active as well,
but him being younger,

923
00:42:17,365 --> 00:42:20,725
he was active in different
ways than Braden.

924
00:42:20,725 --> 00:42:22,570
But as a family, all of us went

925
00:42:22,570 --> 00:42:24,670
down to Springfield to
watch them vote on it,

926
00:42:24,670 --> 00:42:28,360
and the speaker of
the House gave us

927
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:34,780
box seats overlooking
the podium to see this.

928
00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:37,150
And so we got there and

929
00:42:37,150 --> 00:42:39,580
we were ushered with
other activists that had

930
00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:41,620
been working hard
on the issue into

931
00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:45,910
these private seats and
we waited and waited.

932
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:48,535
And it was an all day.
We have little kids.

933
00:42:48,535 --> 00:42:51,190
And so it was a long time
and they were so patient.

934
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:53,140
And I remember my son,

935
00:42:53,140 --> 00:42:54,640
they called a vote,
and we didn't

936
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,960
know when the vote was
going to be called.

937
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:56,860
We just knew it was supposed to

938
00:42:56,860 --> 00:42:57,790
be called that day because

939
00:42:57,790 --> 00:43:00,025
it was the last day
of the session.

940
00:43:00,025 --> 00:43:03,310
And I remember it really stuck,

941
00:43:03,310 --> 00:43:05,530
but every time that
they would do a vote,

942
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:08,185
he would say, is
it our turn next?

943
00:43:08,185 --> 00:43:10,210
And I'd say, yet be patient.

944
00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:15,220
It's coming. And he was eight
years old and frustrated

945
00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:17,680
and wanted to to be done

946
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:18,880
with all of this and just

947
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,290
kept saying, is
it our turn next?

948
00:43:20,290 --> 00:43:23,050
And then people started

949
00:43:23,050 --> 00:43:24,505
whispering around the chamber

950
00:43:24,505 --> 00:43:25,915
that it wasn't
going to be called,

951
00:43:25,915 --> 00:43:28,690
that they didn't
have enough votes.

952
00:43:28,690 --> 00:43:31,390
And they said, well,

953
00:43:31,390 --> 00:43:33,160
let's get the
families out of here.

954
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,950
This is not something
they need to experience.

955
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:39,370
And we said, no, this
is part of democracy,

956
00:43:39,370 --> 00:43:41,095
so we're going to
see this through.

957
00:43:41,095 --> 00:43:46,000
And we sat there and the
sponsor of the bill,

958
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,640
who's a friend of
ours, he gets up,

959
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,155
Greg Harris, and tears
are in his eyes.

960
00:43:53,155 --> 00:43:59,440
And he's looking up at all
of us. And he loses it.

961
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,905
He's just so devastated that

962
00:44:02,905 --> 00:44:04,720
he's brought us down
there to experience

963
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:07,255
this and he knows
he can't deliver.

964
00:44:07,255 --> 00:44:09,040
Because the caucus just

965
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:10,990
started unraveling
for all the pressure.

966
00:44:10,990 --> 00:44:13,780
And he said, I can't.

967
00:44:13,780 --> 00:44:15,580
He gives a really
elaborate speech.

968
00:44:15,580 --> 00:44:18,145
And when we all realized
what was happening,

969
00:44:18,145 --> 00:44:19,600
we all stood up.

970
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:20,920
And we started chanting,

971
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,240
call the vote, call the vote.

972
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:24,670
And it just was shocking to

973
00:44:24,670 --> 00:44:28,060
the chambers to have
this reasoning.

974
00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:29,410
And they're trying
to calm us down,

975
00:44:29,410 --> 00:44:31,510
and we're all just saying,
call the vote, call the vote.

976
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:34,030
Because we felt like with
the pressure of all of us

977
00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:37,165
there that maybe that one
last vote would show up.

978
00:44:37,165 --> 00:44:39,280
And it didn't.

979
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,550
And so we were back
in the streets,

980
00:44:42,550 --> 00:44:44,890
talking about how much

981
00:44:44,890 --> 00:44:46,990
of an injustice this
was to our families,

982
00:44:46,990 --> 00:44:50,830
that we couldn't
secure those rights.

983
00:44:50,830 --> 00:44:54,205
And it wasn't until
the next session

984
00:44:54,205 --> 00:44:56,290
that it finally got passed.

985
00:44:56,290 --> 00:44:58,270
And of course, we
celebrated then.

986
00:44:58,270 --> 00:45:00,010
And the first thing I think that

987
00:45:00,010 --> 00:45:02,365
the kids were really
excited about was

988
00:45:02,365 --> 00:45:03,610
not so much the idea

989
00:45:03,610 --> 00:45:07,210
of protections in social
security and all that stuff,

990
00:45:07,210 --> 00:45:09,190
but what they were going
to wear at the wedding.

991
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:11,590
And so we started playing

992
00:45:11,590 --> 00:45:13,840
that out and we're
members of Unity Temple,

993
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,870
which is a historic Unitarian
Universalist Church

994
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:18,520
in Oak Park.

995
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,285
And that's where
we attend church.

996
00:45:22,285 --> 00:45:25,690
And so it was natural for us
to have our ceremony there.

997
00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:29,305
And so we started
planning our wedding,

998
00:45:29,305 --> 00:45:33,350
which was in June of this year.

999
00:45:35,310 --> 00:45:37,330
>> Do you need something?

1000
00:45:37,330 --> 00:45:40,250
>> I need a tissue.

1001
00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:02,185
>> All right. Am I shiny?

1002
00:46:02,185 --> 00:46:09,310
>> No. So [OVERLAPPING]
[LAUGHTER]

1003
00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:12,100
but can you talk about getting
raised in San Francisco?

1004
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:14,515
>> Yeah. You know,

1005
00:46:14,515 --> 00:46:17,230
like I said, Lee had
called me that morning.

1006
00:46:17,230 --> 00:46:19,405
So it was all quite
a surprise and

1007
00:46:19,405 --> 00:46:24,910
we boarded early bird flight
out the next morning.

1008
00:46:24,910 --> 00:46:27,745
This would have
been February 18,

1009
00:46:27,745 --> 00:46:30,325
I think of 2004.

1010
00:46:30,325 --> 00:46:32,320
Flew to San Francisco,

1011
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,605
got there and immediately
went straight to City Hall,

1012
00:46:35,605 --> 00:46:36,760
and there's a long line

1013
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,340
a long line stretching around
the block because you know,

1014
00:46:39,340 --> 00:46:40,990
this is the only place
in the country that

1015
00:46:40,990 --> 00:46:43,195
Gays and Lesbians are
allowed to get married.

1016
00:46:43,195 --> 00:46:49,060
And it was just so just
so fun. We're in line.

1017
00:46:49,060 --> 00:46:51,100
We had our suits on because,

1018
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:52,480
you know, of course,
you get married,

1019
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,760
suits best and there

1020
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,950
were all sorts of couples
from all over the place,

1021
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:58,870
mostly San Francisco
in California,

1022
00:46:58,870 --> 00:47:01,510
and we waited patiently

1023
00:47:01,510 --> 00:47:04,870
and as we're waiting
on this long line,

1024
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:07,555
it's slowly moving, you know,

1025
00:47:07,555 --> 00:47:08,725
people would just come up.

1026
00:47:08,725 --> 00:47:10,795
They would offer us drinks.

1027
00:47:10,795 --> 00:47:17,515
I remember this one
little old Asian lady

1028
00:47:17,515 --> 00:47:20,110
came up just handing
us a little rose,

1029
00:47:20,110 --> 00:47:23,110
and, you know, just
such gestures of

1030
00:47:23,110 --> 00:47:26,770
kindness shown by the
people of San Francisco,

1031
00:47:26,770 --> 00:47:28,615
that was just very touching.

1032
00:47:28,615 --> 00:47:30,550
And then there was

1033
00:47:30,550 --> 00:47:34,390
this this flower shop even
came up at one point,

1034
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:38,620
and handed me a
bouquet, a real, like,

1035
00:47:38,620 --> 00:47:41,740
wedding bouquet and you know,

1036
00:47:41,740 --> 00:47:43,675
I was stunned by this.

1037
00:47:43,675 --> 00:47:46,285
You know, rose is one thing
but a bouquet and he said,

1038
00:47:46,285 --> 00:47:47,680
he said, we've
been getting calls

1039
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:48,700
from all over the country,

1040
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:50,725
people wanting to
be part of this,

1041
00:47:50,725 --> 00:47:53,950
and they're paying
for bouquet for

1042
00:47:53,950 --> 00:47:57,835
the couples and ours said
with love from Seattle.

1043
00:47:57,835 --> 00:48:00,715
We kept it. I keep everything

1044
00:48:00,715 --> 00:48:04,570
and so I had my little
bouquet and we're in line,

1045
00:48:04,570 --> 00:48:07,480
and it's getting later in the
day and we're keeping it.

1046
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,790
We're still outside
at this point.

1047
00:48:09,790 --> 00:48:11,620
And, you know,

1048
00:48:11,620 --> 00:48:12,670
they come out and
they try to give

1049
00:48:12,670 --> 00:48:14,005
up dates and all that stuff

1050
00:48:14,005 --> 00:48:18,130
and we're probably
five, five way.

1051
00:48:18,130 --> 00:48:22,015
And they come out and they
said, we're closing down.

1052
00:48:22,015 --> 00:48:24,790
There's no more room inside,

1053
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:26,905
and we know you know how
long this is going to take.

1054
00:48:26,905 --> 00:48:30,130
And we thought, oh, my gosh,

1055
00:48:30,130 --> 00:48:32,140
we came all the way out
here, all this way,

1056
00:48:32,140 --> 00:48:33,220
and we waited all this time,

1057
00:48:33,220 --> 00:48:35,455
and it's not going to happen.

1058
00:48:35,455 --> 00:48:39,085
And the couples all around us.

1059
00:48:39,085 --> 00:48:42,970
This was representative Duffy's
assistant who came out.

1060
00:48:42,970 --> 00:48:45,430
And representative Duffy was

1061
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:48,370
the supervisor Duffy
in San Francisco,

1062
00:48:48,370 --> 00:48:51,220
was the supervisor who

1063
00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:54,625
held the seat that Harvey
Milk held over the Castro.

1064
00:48:54,625 --> 00:48:57,040
So his assistant came
out and apologized

1065
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,080
that we weren't going to be

1066
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,300
able to get married that day and

1067
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:03,160
all the couples around us said,

1068
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,540
you have to take these guys.

1069
00:49:04,540 --> 00:49:05,650
They're from Chicago.

1070
00:49:05,650 --> 00:49:06,970
They came all the way here.

1071
00:49:06,970 --> 00:49:08,935
You have to let them in,

1072
00:49:08,935 --> 00:49:14,350
and they did and so we
were so touched by that.

1073
00:49:14,350 --> 00:49:16,210
You know, these strangers

1074
00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:17,560
that we had just
met that morning

1075
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,570
put their selves aside
and let us go ahead.

1076
00:49:22,570 --> 00:49:24,850
And so they whisk us
away, and actually,

1077
00:49:24,850 --> 00:49:26,125
he ended up taking
us straight up

1078
00:49:26,125 --> 00:49:28,585
to supervisor Duffy's office.

1079
00:49:28,585 --> 00:49:34,600
And we met with him and which
was just for as a gay man

1080
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,970
to talk to the
supervisor who held

1081
00:49:36,970 --> 00:49:40,675
Harvey Milks seat and
to be in that office,

1082
00:49:40,675 --> 00:49:43,840
you know, where such tragedy had

1083
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,695
happened and everything with
the killing of Harvey Milk.

1084
00:49:47,695 --> 00:49:49,930
And there's just so much
history in that building.

1085
00:49:49,930 --> 00:49:52,690
It was just amazing to us.

1086
00:49:52,690 --> 00:49:55,150
And so they took us to

1087
00:49:55,150 --> 00:49:58,810
the Rotunda area and that's
where we had our wedding.

1088
00:49:58,810 --> 00:50:02,740
And of course, our family
wasn't able to be there.

1089
00:50:02,740 --> 00:50:04,735
So we had them on cell phone

1090
00:50:04,735 --> 00:50:07,000
and they got to listen
to the ceremony.

1091
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,000
And then we were whisked

1092
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,120
downstairs to get
the certificate,

1093
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,920
and a poker band had showed up,

1094
00:50:16,140 --> 00:50:19,030
I forgot about this part.

1095
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:21,460
So we danced. You know,

1096
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:23,530
all of these people who
were getting married

1097
00:50:23,530 --> 00:50:26,080
or dancing and singing,

1098
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,265
and it was just and all the
clerks were so thrilled.

1099
00:50:30,265 --> 00:50:34,075
It was just such a wonderful,
wonderful experience.

1100
00:50:34,075 --> 00:50:36,370
And as we left,

1101
00:50:36,370 --> 00:50:39,490
we went back to the
hotel that we had rented

1102
00:50:39,490 --> 00:50:44,125
a little place in the Castro
a little Victorian yacht.

1103
00:50:44,125 --> 00:50:46,630
I never will forget
and we took photos of

1104
00:50:46,630 --> 00:50:48,970
this because it was
just so poignant.

1105
00:50:48,970 --> 00:50:51,820
We get there and as
we're looking out,

1106
00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:53,935
this huge rainbow came out

1107
00:50:53,935 --> 00:50:55,990
across the city and we thought,

1108
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:58,960
how perfect has this
day turned out?

1109
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,285
This is the way it would end.

1110
00:51:01,285 --> 00:51:03,370
We had to snap all
those photos because it

1111
00:51:03,370 --> 00:51:05,650
just didn't seem real.

1112
00:51:05,650 --> 00:51:09,265
And so that's how our
first wedding took place.

1113
00:51:09,265 --> 00:51:11,740
Now I will say that after that,

1114
00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:14,920
we came back and his
parents threw us

1115
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,850
a reception so the family
could participate.

1116
00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:24,595
We held it in a banquet hall
right outside of Detroit

1117
00:51:24,595 --> 00:51:27,130
and it was about

1118
00:51:27,130 --> 00:51:31,225
as typical of wedding
reception as you could have.

1119
00:51:31,225 --> 00:51:35,440
We had my family come
up and Les family,

1120
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,545
and we probably had
about 150 guests.

1121
00:51:38,545 --> 00:51:41,620
We had a friend of ours

1122
00:51:41,620 --> 00:51:45,880
who was a priest is a priest
with a Catholic church who

1123
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:51,400
blessed us and it was

1124
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,450
magical having all of our family

1125
00:51:55,450 --> 00:51:57,880
with us celebrating the start

1126
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,910
of our journey
officially together.

1127
00:52:00,910 --> 00:52:02,980
>> Just to clarify was this

1128
00:52:02,980 --> 00:52:04,915
before or after
Britain and Michael.

1129
00:52:04,915 --> 00:52:07,255
>> This was before. Yeah, four.

1130
00:52:07,255 --> 00:52:09,940
They came to us in zero seven.

1131
00:52:09,940 --> 00:52:14,575
They came to us August 10,2007.

1132
00:52:14,575 --> 00:52:17,870
So this was before.

1133
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,400
>> It was just such a
perfect experience,

1134
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,970
when it was later struck
down. How did that feel?

1135
00:52:27,970 --> 00:52:29,530
>> Well, you know,

1136
00:52:29,530 --> 00:52:32,420
we didn't ask me
about the honeymoon.

1137
00:52:33,690 --> 00:52:35,905
Well, I'll throw that in there.

1138
00:52:35,905 --> 00:52:37,765
So we went to Mali

1139
00:52:37,765 --> 00:52:39,880
because that's where
a couple should go,

1140
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,610
I think on their
honeymoon and had

1141
00:52:42,610 --> 00:52:45,985
a wonderful Hawaiian
honeymoon and

1142
00:52:45,985 --> 00:52:48,970
toured all the falls
and took the road to

1143
00:52:48,970 --> 00:52:50,710
Hana and all the
things that you could

1144
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:52,825
do on Maui, we did.

1145
00:52:52,825 --> 00:52:58,750
And got back and you know,

1146
00:52:58,750 --> 00:52:59,800
there was discussion on what

1147
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:00,880
was going to happen
with those license.

1148
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,060
We knew that it was on
shaky legal grounds,

1149
00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:05,920
and so sure enough,

1150
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,675
one day in the mail comes

1151
00:53:07,675 --> 00:53:10,270
very nicely written letter

1152
00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:13,105
from the City of San
Francisco, I think it was.

1153
00:53:13,105 --> 00:53:14,590
We kept this as well,

1154
00:53:14,590 --> 00:53:16,060
and notifying us that

1155
00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:18,220
our marriage had been
nullified because

1156
00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:22,720
of ruling by the
California Supreme Court.

1157
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:25,300
And they would be glad to refund

1158
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:30,235
our fees or if we would like,

1159
00:53:30,235 --> 00:53:32,470
we could donate our
fees to the fund to

1160
00:53:32,470 --> 00:53:36,295
help secure marriage
equality rights,

1161
00:53:36,295 --> 00:53:38,635
which is what we chose to do.

1162
00:53:38,635 --> 00:53:42,490
You know, so legally we

1163
00:53:42,490 --> 00:53:43,990
really didn't have
any legal standing

1164
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:45,670
anyway in Illinois at that time.

1165
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:48,910
We knew that the minute we
had left San Francisco,

1166
00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:52,060
that it was a piece of paper
in the eyes of Illinois.

1167
00:53:52,060 --> 00:53:55,060
It gave us maybe something
that we could fight with,

1168
00:53:55,060 --> 00:53:57,490
which is what I did
with Dean Foods.

1169
00:53:57,490 --> 00:54:00,295
But, you know, it

1170
00:54:00,295 --> 00:54:02,740
wasn't it still wasn't
being treated the

1171
00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:06,220
same as any other
marriage certificate

1172
00:54:06,220 --> 00:54:08,170
by a heterosexual couple.

1173
00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:10,000
We knew that was
going to be the case,

1174
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,800
and it would still be
a long journey for us.

1175
00:54:14,010 --> 00:54:17,260
>> So we've talked a lot
over the last two days

1176
00:54:17,260 --> 00:54:20,005
about the relationship
over the years.

1177
00:54:20,005 --> 00:54:22,120
Can you speak a
little to how they've

1178
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,640
affected you and how you've
developed as a person?

1179
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,380
That's a really easy question.
What are your thoughts on?

1180
00:54:29,380 --> 00:54:31,310
>> Wow.

1181
00:54:33,570 --> 00:54:37,180
I've had two major relationships

1182
00:54:37,180 --> 00:54:39,250
in my life as an adult.

1183
00:54:39,250 --> 00:54:42,640
It was John, which I
met as a teenager.

1184
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,350
I was 17 when we met.

1185
00:54:45,570 --> 00:54:48,385
And then, of course, Lee,

1186
00:54:48,385 --> 00:54:50,590
whom I'm currently in
a relationship with.

1187
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:52,120
Those were the two
main relationships.

1188
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,990
John 11 years, Lee I've
been together for 14 years.

1189
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:59,140
And then that small
window between when

1190
00:54:59,140 --> 00:55:02,380
I was happily single, I dated.

1191
00:55:02,380 --> 00:55:05,380
I wouldn't say I dated a lot,

1192
00:55:05,380 --> 00:55:07,915
but I did date.

1193
00:55:07,915 --> 00:55:09,070
And they all happened to be

1194
00:55:09,070 --> 00:55:11,815
German nationals
for some reason,

1195
00:55:11,815 --> 00:55:14,695
and I happened to
marry a new Becker,

1196
00:55:14,695 --> 00:55:15,760
which is German as

1197
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,740
well because I don't
know what that means.

1198
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:21,010
But I did manage

1199
00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:22,720
to maintain good friendships

1200
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:24,145
with all of them, which
I think is great.

1201
00:55:24,145 --> 00:55:26,350
I've taken away something
from each of them.

1202
00:55:26,350 --> 00:55:29,410
But honestly, the two Lee

1203
00:55:29,410 --> 00:55:33,740
and John would be the ones
that I think helped shape me.

1204
00:55:34,830 --> 00:55:38,470
I met John at a time

1205
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:42,130
when I was learning
who I was as a person,

1206
00:55:42,130 --> 00:55:44,830
and really, I didn't think
very much of myself.

1207
00:55:44,830 --> 00:55:46,330
I didn't have anyone really in

1208
00:55:46,330 --> 00:55:48,520
my life to tell me that
I was worth anything.

1209
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:53,440
And then I was capable
of being anybody

1210
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:59,500
and I really think I
was just a lost kid,

1211
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:01,600
and I don't know what I would

1212
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,010
have become or if I would have

1213
00:56:03,010 --> 00:56:07,960
really amounted to much
without him in my life.

1214
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,605
Not only was he a great partner,

1215
00:56:11,605 --> 00:56:16,540
but he gave me the ability
to believe in myself,

1216
00:56:16,540 --> 00:56:19,880
and that's a huge gift
to give somebody.

1217
00:56:20,190 --> 00:56:22,780
And I talked with them recently

1218
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:24,430
about that because
we've remained friends.

1219
00:56:24,430 --> 00:56:28,390
We grew apart, as I
understand and got to

1220
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:32,410
know myself and learned
what I wanted in life,

1221
00:56:32,410 --> 00:56:34,015
it didn't always necessarily

1222
00:56:34,015 --> 00:56:36,325
fit with what John
wanted in life.

1223
00:56:36,325 --> 00:56:39,130
He already was 11 years
older than myself,

1224
00:56:39,130 --> 00:56:41,170
and I think he had
already been down

1225
00:56:41,170 --> 00:56:42,640
that journey and decided that

1226
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,380
this is where he
wanted to be in life,

1227
00:56:44,380 --> 00:56:47,560
and my journey was
taking a turn.

1228
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:49,480
And we were both realizing that,

1229
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,445
I think with the loss of Cody,

1230
00:56:51,445 --> 00:56:53,680
and everything, it just made

1231
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,690
my decision that much easier.

1232
00:56:55,690 --> 00:56:59,335
But he seems to think I
think he's right that

1233
00:56:59,335 --> 00:57:02,710
the relationship probably
wouldn't have lasted even

1234
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:06,190
if the incident with
Cody had never occurred,

1235
00:57:06,190 --> 00:57:09,550
that I just had really
gotten to the point

1236
00:57:09,550 --> 00:57:13,405
where I was a very different
person and then I was at 17.

1237
00:57:13,405 --> 00:57:16,700
And we both recognize that now.

1238
00:57:16,710 --> 00:57:23,095
So I credit him with making me

1239
00:57:23,095 --> 00:57:24,970
the person I am in that

1240
00:57:24,970 --> 00:57:28,720
he showed me that I could do
whatever I wanted in life,

1241
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:30,670
and he supported
me through that.

1242
00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:32,140
And those were the tough times.

1243
00:57:32,140 --> 00:57:35,560
Those were the times when
we would go days eating

1244
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,180
this macaroni and cheese
with cut-up sausages.

1245
00:57:40,180 --> 00:57:41,230
We still joke with them about

1246
00:57:41,230 --> 00:57:43,390
this because we didn't
have any money.

1247
00:57:43,390 --> 00:57:45,460
It was tough times with
me attending school

1248
00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:47,560
here and working in

1249
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,510
the laboratory and his
job and living in Smyrna,

1250
00:57:52,510 --> 00:57:54,205
we just didn't have much.

1251
00:57:54,205 --> 00:57:58,240
And it was tough and
I'm just so thankful

1252
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,160
that I had him part of
my life at that time.

1253
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,080
And then, of course,
when I met Lee,

1254
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,430
it was a different situation.

1255
00:58:06,430 --> 00:58:09,760
I was confident enough to
move across the country

1256
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,610
and I really didn't

1257
00:58:12,610 --> 00:58:15,910
want a relationship at that
I was quite happy single.

1258
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:17,935
So when I met Lee,

1259
00:58:17,935 --> 00:58:21,490
it felt different because
I wanted to be with

1260
00:58:21,490 --> 00:58:26,530
him because I loved him
and, attracted to him.

1261
00:58:26,530 --> 00:58:28,840
And it wasn't that I needed

1262
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,120
him to make me feel better
or anything like that.

1263
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,370
And so it was a
different situation.

1264
00:58:36,180 --> 00:58:40,600
And I think that
it has fallen into

1265
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,790
an interesting place in

1266
00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:45,160
that when people ask
about our relationship,

1267
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,355
or our friends when they
look at how we live,

1268
00:58:48,355 --> 00:58:50,680
they describe it as the typical

1269
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,850
1950s housewife and husband.

1270
00:58:54,850 --> 00:58:58,540
If you want to try to put us
into those weird buckets.

1271
00:58:58,540 --> 00:59:02,575
Lee started and
founded the company

1272
00:59:02,575 --> 00:59:05,920
Forensicon which is a
computer forensics company,

1273
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,245
and anyone who does a start-up,

1274
00:59:08,245 --> 00:59:10,210
it takes many hours

1275
00:59:10,210 --> 00:59:12,430
and you're really pouring

1276
00:59:12,430 --> 00:59:14,530
your whole life into
the small business.

1277
00:59:14,530 --> 00:59:18,460
And that's why I put

1278
00:59:18,460 --> 00:59:20,155
my career on hold

1279
00:59:20,155 --> 00:59:22,840
because we wanted to
start a family together,

1280
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,520
and that meant that,

1281
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,010
especially with two kids who had

1282
00:59:27,010 --> 00:59:29,675
come from a background
where they needed

1283
00:59:29,675 --> 00:59:33,270
something extra to make
them feel safe and secure

1284
00:59:33,270 --> 00:59:35,550
and meet their needs

1285
00:59:35,550 --> 00:59:37,800
and bring them to where
they need to be today,

1286
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,120
they needed someone
who's going to be

1287
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,440
home all the time and

1288
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:45,330
dedicate their life to
them and it's worked.

1289
00:59:45,330 --> 00:59:51,435
And it's probably unconventional
today in many ways,

1290
00:59:51,435 --> 00:59:59,080
but I do the PTA stuff
and room parent,

1291
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,680
and I was cookie dad for

1292
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,930
the Girl Scouts and

1293
01:00:04,930 --> 01:00:08,140
I try to make decent
home-cooked meals.

1294
01:00:08,140 --> 01:00:13,060
And he works many hours

1295
01:00:13,060 --> 01:00:15,490
and he comes home and
he's tired and he

1296
01:00:15,490 --> 01:00:16,840
doesn't get to
spend as many hours

1297
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,190
as you'd like with the kids,

1298
01:00:18,190 --> 01:00:20,980
and that's our life right now.

1299
01:00:20,980 --> 01:00:22,540
But it's hopefully going to

1300
01:00:22,540 --> 01:00:24,670
change where he'll be
able to be at home more.

1301
01:00:24,670 --> 01:00:26,560
And I think at some point when

1302
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,840
the kids get older
and everything,

1303
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,640
I'll resume my career.

1304
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,800
But right now, it's
just making them

1305
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,300
feel safe and at ease at home.

1306
01:00:37,300 --> 01:00:39,760
And I want to

1307
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,860
be able to look back on
these moments which are

1308
01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:44,350
just really precious and

1309
01:00:44,350 --> 01:00:47,630
enjoy it as long
as I can, I guess.

1310
01:00:48,270 --> 01:00:51,100
>> Can you talk a
little bit about how

1311
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:53,425
the AIDS epidemic has
impacted your life,

1312
01:00:53,425 --> 01:00:56,780
especially with your work with
the mains project clothe.

1313
01:00:59,220 --> 01:01:02,050
>> It's something that I
probably haven't dealt

1314
01:01:02,050 --> 01:01:05,110
with much over the years.

1315
01:01:05,110 --> 01:01:10,750
In preparing to discuss
all of this with you guys,

1316
01:01:10,750 --> 01:01:15,260
I reflect on my
journey through life.

1317
01:01:15,330 --> 01:01:17,770
I started putting together,

1318
01:01:17,770 --> 01:01:19,450
like all of the organizations I

1319
01:01:19,450 --> 01:01:22,030
belonged to and I
had helped found

1320
01:01:22,030 --> 01:01:26,260
all the demonstrations
we had participated in

1321
01:01:26,260 --> 01:01:30,010
and I sat down and I looked
at all of this stuff,

1322
01:01:30,010 --> 01:01:33,670
and I was quite amazed at
how many things we had done.

1323
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:38,830
And it was pretty impressive,

1324
01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:41,275
I thought for myself.

1325
01:01:41,275 --> 01:01:43,375
And then the other night

1326
01:01:43,375 --> 01:01:45,970
before coming down to
speak with you guys,

1327
01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:49,555
I woke up at 4:00 in the
morning, I just woke up.

1328
01:01:49,555 --> 01:01:52,820
Which is not like me because
I don't like waking up.

1329
01:01:55,110 --> 01:01:58,510
For some reason, I
thought about all

1330
01:01:58,510 --> 01:02:01,285
of my friends that I
lost during that time.

1331
01:02:01,285 --> 01:02:04,990
And it's like their names
just kept rolling in my head,

1332
01:02:04,990 --> 01:02:08,140
names that I hadn't
thought about in years.

1333
01:02:08,140 --> 01:02:10,900
As their names
came into my mind,

1334
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:13,600
I thought about the
time spent with them,

1335
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,035
and losing them.

1336
01:02:17,035 --> 01:02:22,670
And this happened at a
very short window of time.

1337
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:28,135
In the late '80s for me,

1338
01:02:28,135 --> 01:02:29,935
I was experiencing this

1339
01:02:29,935 --> 01:02:31,960
when I became involved
with friends at

1340
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,030
Atlanta and was friends

1341
01:02:34,030 --> 01:02:36,700
with people of an
older generation,

1342
01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:38,860
and that was the generation
that was really being

1343
01:02:38,860 --> 01:02:41,635
affected mostly by this disease.

1344
01:02:41,635 --> 01:02:46,885
And I started processing
what that meant,

1345
01:02:46,885 --> 01:02:49,000
and I realized I
had just buried it.

1346
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:55,180
It was too painful to live
through a period in your 20s

1347
01:02:55,180 --> 01:02:58,480
where you're having to
take care of people

1348
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,280
who are dying and there is

1349
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,635
nothing you can do to save them.

1350
01:03:02,635 --> 01:03:06,410
And their families
are abandoning them,

1351
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,670
they're wasting away,

1352
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:11,755
there's no treatments,

1353
01:03:11,755 --> 01:03:15,670
and people are
afraid to touch you.

1354
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:17,470
They're afraid to even

1355
01:03:17,470 --> 01:03:19,555
live in the house
that you've lived in.

1356
01:03:19,555 --> 01:03:21,805
I just could not believe

1357
01:03:21,805 --> 01:03:25,450
thinking back at
what that was like.

1358
01:03:25,450 --> 01:03:28,810
I think it was just
so horrible and

1359
01:03:28,810 --> 01:03:30,730
painful and I couldn't

1360
01:03:30,730 --> 01:03:32,680
deal with it that I
just close it off.

1361
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,665
And it didn't hit me
until the other night,

1362
01:03:35,665 --> 01:03:37,540
what I had experienced.

1363
01:03:37,540 --> 01:03:46,395
And there's just too many
names to go through.

1364
01:03:46,395 --> 01:03:49,080
And at the time, our community,

1365
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,630
what we did to not forget

1366
01:03:51,630 --> 01:03:54,270
those people was we were
putting together quilt panels.

1367
01:03:54,270 --> 01:03:58,990
Cleve Jones had founded
the names project.

1368
01:03:58,990 --> 01:04:02,620
And people as their friends

1369
01:04:02,620 --> 01:04:05,860
were dying or their family
members were dying,

1370
01:04:05,860 --> 01:04:08,575
they would they create a panel

1371
01:04:08,575 --> 01:04:11,455
that represented that person,

1372
01:04:11,455 --> 01:04:13,390
however, they wanted
to be represented.

1373
01:04:13,390 --> 01:04:15,610
Sometimes the person as they

1374
01:04:15,610 --> 01:04:18,070
were getting ready to die
would participate in that.

1375
01:04:18,070 --> 01:04:21,640
Sometimes it was just
left as a way to

1376
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:23,290
cope with the loss

1377
01:04:23,290 --> 01:04:25,690
to pull together pieces
of their T-shirts,

1378
01:04:25,690 --> 01:04:27,685
I remember doing that stuff.

1379
01:04:27,685 --> 01:04:29,860
But political buttons or

1380
01:04:29,860 --> 01:04:32,980
whatever represented the
person in that moment.

1381
01:04:32,980 --> 01:04:36,040
And then we'd chip it off.

1382
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,380
The first march on Washington,

1383
01:04:38,380 --> 01:04:41,200
they decided to display
this quilt that

1384
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:42,460
had been pulled together

1385
01:04:42,460 --> 01:04:44,455
from panels all
over the country.

1386
01:04:44,455 --> 01:04:52,075
And we're out on the mall in
Washington and it's just,

1387
01:04:52,075 --> 01:04:54,505
I don't even know the
words to describe it.

1388
01:04:54,505 --> 01:04:56,305
But to look across the mall,

1389
01:04:56,305 --> 01:04:58,900
which is normally green
and full of people

1390
01:04:58,900 --> 01:05:03,550
and usually people enjoying
a bright sunny day and

1391
01:05:03,550 --> 01:05:05,760
it's happy just to see

1392
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,730
nothing but panels that
you know each one of

1393
01:05:08,730 --> 01:05:10,530
those represents
someone who died too

1394
01:05:10,530 --> 01:05:15,460
soon was just amazing.

1395
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:22,265
So it was dead silent.
I remember that.

1396
01:05:22,265 --> 01:05:24,980
I remember it was
just so painful

1397
01:05:24,980 --> 01:05:27,170
that you could just hear

1398
01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:31,175
the birds chirping because
you didn't want to talk.

1399
01:05:31,175 --> 01:05:35,075
And people who would just
kneel down when they would

1400
01:05:35,075 --> 01:05:39,420
recognize a panel and
just sit with it.

1401
01:05:39,820 --> 01:05:42,440
So it really brought
it under perspective,

1402
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,750
how much it was just devastating

1403
01:05:44,750 --> 01:05:46,910
our community and the lack

1404
01:05:46,910 --> 01:05:49,310
of help that we were
getting from anywhere.

1405
01:05:49,310 --> 01:05:50,945
The government
wasn't helping us.

1406
01:05:50,945 --> 01:05:53,045
Our president wouldn't
even mention the word.

1407
01:05:53,045 --> 01:05:58,430
And families didn't
want to talk about it.

1408
01:05:58,430 --> 01:06:01,850
It was just too shameful
and people used it

1409
01:06:01,850 --> 01:06:03,530
as a weapon against us to

1410
01:06:03,530 --> 01:06:05,960
keep us from
securing our rights.

1411
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,155
And so we get back to Atlanta.

1412
01:06:09,155 --> 01:06:12,290
We're energized by all
the people that we've met

1413
01:06:12,290 --> 01:06:15,230
and what we've seen in
DC and we're working,

1414
01:06:15,230 --> 01:06:16,670
but at the same time,

1415
01:06:16,670 --> 01:06:18,980
we're just so mindful
of all the people

1416
01:06:18,980 --> 01:06:21,635
that we're still losing
from this illness.

1417
01:06:21,635 --> 01:06:24,890
So they decided to
bring the quilt to

1418
01:06:24,890 --> 01:06:28,370
Atlanta Memorial Day weekend,

1419
01:06:28,370 --> 01:06:32,615
I think it was of 1988.

1420
01:06:32,615 --> 01:06:34,820
It was going to be at the
World Congress Center,

1421
01:06:34,820 --> 01:06:36,455
Georgia World Congress Center.

1422
01:06:36,455 --> 01:06:39,635
So John and I volunteered and,

1423
01:06:39,635 --> 01:06:41,390
I thought I can do this.

1424
01:06:41,390 --> 01:06:43,415
And we get there.

1425
01:06:43,415 --> 01:06:47,000
We were asked were all
white. I remember that.

1426
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,990
And our job was just
to hand out tissues

1427
01:06:50,990 --> 01:06:56,430
and try to offer some support
to people who came in.

1428
01:06:57,340 --> 01:07:02,105
So we stood there
and did our job.

1429
01:07:02,105 --> 01:07:04,985
And at the end of the day,

1430
01:07:04,985 --> 01:07:08,615
I was just so
absolutely exhausted

1431
01:07:08,615 --> 01:07:13,130
by the grief in the place and

1432
01:07:13,130 --> 01:07:16,820
just everyone mourning and

1433
01:07:16,820 --> 01:07:19,670
releasing all that they had bent

1434
01:07:19,670 --> 01:07:22,805
up over the losses that
we were experiencing.

1435
01:07:22,805 --> 01:07:24,590
And these panels meant so

1436
01:07:24,590 --> 01:07:27,005
much more because
so many of them,

1437
01:07:27,005 --> 01:07:29,210
we knew these people that were

1438
01:07:29,210 --> 01:07:31,355
represented in these panels.

1439
01:07:31,355 --> 01:07:32,690
So it was really tough.

1440
01:07:32,690 --> 01:07:36,680
And my cousin,

1441
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,600
he had a call one day,

1442
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:43,610
and I had been out to the
family for some time,

1443
01:07:43,610 --> 01:07:45,395
and I had a cousin,

1444
01:07:45,395 --> 01:07:49,340
Keith Davis, who was
older than myself

1445
01:07:49,340 --> 01:07:51,170
and my family is very large on

1446
01:07:51,170 --> 01:07:53,750
both sides and tons of cousins.

1447
01:07:53,750 --> 01:07:56,210
And Keith was always
a nice cousin,

1448
01:07:56,210 --> 01:07:58,880
but older than I was.

1449
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,955
And he graduated
from Pebblebrook.

1450
01:08:01,955 --> 01:08:05,540
He moved away and thought
well that's fine.

1451
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:10,505
That's what people do. And
I get a call from him.

1452
01:08:10,505 --> 01:08:12,410
And he's living in

1453
01:08:12,410 --> 01:08:16,400
North Carolina and he
comes out and he tells me,

1454
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:18,020
he's gay and all that stuff.

1455
01:08:18,020 --> 01:08:23,690
And I thought well,
that's great,

1456
01:08:23,690 --> 01:08:25,130
and we talk a little
bit and all that

1457
01:08:25,130 --> 01:08:29,060
and I don't hear from
him again for a while,

1458
01:08:29,060 --> 01:08:31,280
and next time I

1459
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,800
hear from him, you're
going to go some time.

1460
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,330
And I had always
wanted to visit him

1461
01:08:35,330 --> 01:08:37,085
because now I've
got a gay cousin,

1462
01:08:37,085 --> 01:08:38,870
it's quite exciting
all that stuff.

1463
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:40,145
But it just never
seemed to work out.

1464
01:08:40,145 --> 01:08:41,960
I thought, well, I'll
see him at some point.

1465
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:43,850
Next time I hear from him,

1466
01:08:43,850 --> 01:08:48,275
he's at Georgia
Baptist Hospital.

1467
01:08:48,275 --> 01:08:51,900
I'm just stunned by
this phone call now.

1468
01:08:52,420 --> 01:08:56,400
He tells me that he has AIDs.

1469
01:08:56,980 --> 01:09:02,000
I'm processing all
of this and I said,

1470
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:03,560
well, let me come up to see you

1471
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,525
and and he doesn't
want me to come up.

1472
01:09:05,525 --> 01:09:09,050
And we talk about that.

1473
01:09:09,050 --> 01:09:11,435
I'm still kind of young.
I don't understand,

1474
01:09:11,435 --> 01:09:13,280
why don't he want
me to be there.

1475
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:15,230
And looking back, of course,

1476
01:09:15,230 --> 01:09:18,605
I get it now because
I'd seen it so much.

1477
01:09:18,605 --> 01:09:21,500
He doesn't look
like he did before.

1478
01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:22,580
He's wasted away.

1479
01:09:22,580 --> 01:09:28,310
He's seen the press and the
way people are treating those

1480
01:09:28,310 --> 01:09:30,875
who are dying and

1481
01:09:30,875 --> 01:09:35,075
he just doesn't want to
be remembered that way.

1482
01:09:35,075 --> 01:09:38,480
And so he had shut himself
off from the whole family.

1483
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:40,955
He blocked anyone from
visiting his room.

1484
01:09:40,955 --> 01:09:43,655
We were not allowed
to go visit him.

1485
01:09:43,655 --> 01:09:46,700
So I never got to see
him before he died.

1486
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:52,610
And it really affected
me hard because I

1487
01:09:52,610 --> 01:09:58,895
really felt cheated that
the family had been,

1488
01:09:58,895 --> 01:10:03,230
pretty supportive at that
point of me and my coming out.

1489
01:10:03,230 --> 01:10:05,300
And I thought, had he

1490
01:10:05,300 --> 01:10:07,840
just tried to give

1491
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:10,180
the family a chance we would
have rallied around him.

1492
01:10:10,180 --> 01:10:14,075
And we would have helped
him through this.

1493
01:10:14,075 --> 01:10:16,040
And I felt that
he didn't give us

1494
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,695
a chance and that hurts.

1495
01:10:18,695 --> 01:10:23,045
And I mourned the
loss of a cousin who

1496
01:10:23,045 --> 01:10:25,400
really fully understood what I

1497
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,355
was going through and got me.

1498
01:10:28,355 --> 01:10:30,920
And there wasn't going
to be anybody else in

1499
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,590
my family that was just like me.

1500
01:10:33,590 --> 01:10:36,170
So that was tough
to lose that too.

1501
01:10:36,170 --> 01:10:39,170
So he's buried up here at

1502
01:10:39,170 --> 01:10:45,530
Windy Hill Road and 41
next to his parents.

1503
01:10:45,530 --> 01:10:47,705
He died at age 28.

1504
01:10:47,705 --> 01:10:50,990
So when I come back
to Atlanta now,

1505
01:10:50,990 --> 01:10:53,510
I go to his grave, and
I just sit with him.

1506
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:57,000
And that's all I have.

1507
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,220
>> Do you think
that, coming out in

1508
01:11:01,220 --> 01:11:03,350
era of the AIDs epidemic in

1509
01:11:03,350 --> 01:11:06,650
any way influenced your coming

1510
01:11:06,650 --> 01:11:10,460
out process or
changed in any way?

1511
01:11:10,460 --> 01:11:11,495
>> Say it again.

1512
01:11:11,495 --> 01:11:13,670
>> Sure. Do you think that

1513
01:11:13,670 --> 01:11:17,600
coming out in the in phase
of the AIDs epidemic,

1514
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:24,365
did that in any way influence
the decision to come out.

1515
01:11:24,365 --> 01:11:26,570
Was there an extra layer of

1516
01:11:26,570 --> 01:11:28,925
fear about coming
out as a gay man?

1517
01:11:28,925 --> 01:11:31,130
>> It didn't at
the time because,

1518
01:11:31,130 --> 01:11:33,155
I came out in stages.

1519
01:11:33,155 --> 01:11:36,020
I had already come out to myself

1520
01:11:36,020 --> 01:11:38,240
practically at the age of five.

1521
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,345
So I already knew who I was.

1522
01:11:41,345 --> 01:11:44,000
And then at 16,

1523
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,200
I came out to the family,

1524
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,225
which at that time,

1525
01:11:47,225 --> 01:11:48,845
we still didn't really know much

1526
01:11:48,845 --> 01:11:50,645
about what was happening.

1527
01:11:50,645 --> 01:11:54,560
And I remember writing at
Pebblebrook High School,

1528
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:59,345
and I was pretty
out at this point.

1529
01:11:59,345 --> 01:12:03,230
I wrote a summary of
a newspaper article.

1530
01:12:03,230 --> 01:12:04,970
My English teacher required us

1531
01:12:04,970 --> 01:12:06,950
to clip something
out of the newspaper

1532
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:10,355
and I used that every
opportunity I could,

1533
01:12:10,355 --> 01:12:11,795
I wanted to talk
about something gay.

1534
01:12:11,795 --> 01:12:15,440
And I had this up
until recently,

1535
01:12:15,440 --> 01:12:17,645
and I wanted to donate
it to the archives.

1536
01:12:17,645 --> 01:12:19,160
And it was one of
those things that got

1537
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:20,210
accidentally thrown away.

1538
01:12:20,210 --> 01:12:25,370
But I had cooked an article
about a new gay cancer,

1539
01:12:25,370 --> 01:12:26,510
I think it was the way that they

1540
01:12:26,510 --> 01:12:29,330
were labeling it in the paper.

1541
01:12:29,330 --> 01:12:30,725
And I wrote about that.

1542
01:12:30,725 --> 01:12:33,635
And I was fascinated with it.

1543
01:12:33,635 --> 01:12:35,630
They were still trying
to understand how

1544
01:12:35,630 --> 01:12:38,195
it was being transmitted
and all that stuff.

1545
01:12:38,195 --> 01:12:40,400
I was curious about it all,

1546
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:42,530
but there was just so
little information.

1547
01:12:42,530 --> 01:12:44,570
And it wasn't happening

1548
01:12:44,570 --> 01:12:46,940
supposedly in
Atlanta at the time.

1549
01:12:46,940 --> 01:12:49,700
And I wasn't really part of
that community full anyway.

1550
01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:53,630
So I didn't really feel
like it was affecting me.

1551
01:12:53,630 --> 01:12:58,265
It was something I was definitely
wanting to learn about,

1552
01:12:58,265 --> 01:13:00,995
but I don't remember having
a sense of fear yet.

1553
01:13:00,995 --> 01:13:03,245
I think it was just too early.

1554
01:13:03,245 --> 01:13:07,265
And I didn't make a connection,

1555
01:13:07,265 --> 01:13:09,440
I don't think any of
us really knew what

1556
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:11,225
we were facing at that point.

1557
01:13:11,225 --> 01:13:15,035
But realizing that
I had written that,

1558
01:13:15,035 --> 01:13:18,650
it reminded me just
how out there I was.

1559
01:13:18,650 --> 01:13:20,540
And one of the other papers
I had found at the time too,

1560
01:13:20,540 --> 01:13:23,420
just touching on
that subject was I

1561
01:13:23,420 --> 01:13:28,070
had done a critique of A
Kiss of the Spider Woman,

1562
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:29,270
I think was the
name of the film,

1563
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:30,890
which was a very gay

1564
01:13:30,890 --> 01:13:32,660
controversial film at
the time, as well.

1565
01:13:32,660 --> 01:13:34,970
And I wrote a review
about that too.

1566
01:13:34,970 --> 01:13:36,230
So at any opportunity,

1567
01:13:36,230 --> 01:13:37,565
I could write about
something gay.

1568
01:13:37,565 --> 01:13:39,110
My teachers probably
were just scratching

1569
01:13:39,110 --> 01:13:41,720
their head over what they
were having to read.

1570
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,790
And I wasn't even a
very good writer,

1571
01:13:43,790 --> 01:13:45,995
so that was the sad
part of it all.

1572
01:13:45,995 --> 01:13:53,300
But I don't think I fully
understood the impact of

1573
01:13:53,300 --> 01:13:57,845
what HIV/AIDs meant
to our community

1574
01:13:57,845 --> 01:14:03,095
until I met John
and his generation,

1575
01:14:03,095 --> 01:14:06,560
which were all older and
those were the guys really,

1576
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,680
unfortunately, who were
really most impacted by it.

1577
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:14,660
And with friends
Atlanta and those guys,

1578
01:14:14,660 --> 01:14:16,160
so many of them,

1579
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:19,070
they had become infected
before we even understood

1580
01:14:19,070 --> 01:14:22,820
what means there were
to protect themselves.

1581
01:14:22,820 --> 01:14:26,120
So that was shocking to me.

1582
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,390
And I was in a
relationship with John,

1583
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:31,535
in a monogamous relationship.

1584
01:14:31,535 --> 01:14:34,480
So again, I didn't feel like I

1585
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:37,780
was personally going
to catch the illness,

1586
01:14:37,780 --> 01:14:43,030
but it was so unfair
and just so hard to be

1587
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:45,715
that age and have to
live through the loss

1588
01:14:45,715 --> 01:14:49,430
of so many of your friends.

1589
01:14:50,950 --> 01:14:54,785
Some of the guys,
I found out later,

1590
01:14:54,785 --> 01:14:56,810
that I had hung out with from

1591
01:14:56,810 --> 01:14:58,760
my high school
days in that group

1592
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:01,040
of gay kids from Cobb County,

1593
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,410
I had found out a couple
of them had died.

1594
01:15:03,410 --> 01:15:05,390
But at that point,

1595
01:15:05,390 --> 01:15:07,730
I hadn't really been friends
with them for some time.

1596
01:15:07,730 --> 01:15:10,430
So again, it was sad,

1597
01:15:10,430 --> 01:15:13,850
but it wasn't as close to me as

1598
01:15:13,850 --> 01:15:14,930
the friends that I was

1599
01:15:14,930 --> 01:15:18,710
experiencing on a day to
day basis that was dying.

1600
01:15:18,710 --> 01:15:21,590
>> Looking back on
the steps made by

1601
01:15:21,590 --> 01:15:24,545
the gay community in terms of
rights and acknowledgement.

1602
01:15:24,545 --> 01:15:26,900
Are there things
in your activism

1603
01:15:26,900 --> 01:15:29,220
that you would have
done differently?

1604
01:15:29,690 --> 01:15:33,180
>> No, I can't
think of anything.

1605
01:15:33,180 --> 01:15:37,710
I think that John

1606
01:15:37,710 --> 01:15:40,695
and I were an interesting
place with activism

1607
01:15:40,695 --> 01:15:42,810
in that I felt that there were

1608
01:15:42,810 --> 01:15:46,590
two distinct camps of

1609
01:15:46,590 --> 01:15:49,140
activism that were
occurring at the time.

1610
01:15:49,140 --> 01:15:51,240
You had your street activists,

1611
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:56,745
which were act up in
queer nation, primarily,

1612
01:15:56,745 --> 01:16:02,025
and then you had
your suit and ties,

1613
01:16:02,025 --> 01:16:06,090
and they are the ones
who donate money,

1614
01:16:06,090 --> 01:16:09,450
they would go to the
dinners, HRCF dinners,

1615
01:16:09,450 --> 01:16:13,665
and work with in the
mainstream at all.

1616
01:16:13,665 --> 01:16:17,115
And we felt comfortable in
both of those communities,

1617
01:16:17,115 --> 01:16:19,455
and that caused some problems.

1618
01:16:19,455 --> 01:16:22,800
I think there were lots of
trust issues with how to deal

1619
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:24,390
with us because we didn't fit

1620
01:16:24,390 --> 01:16:26,250
comfortably in either
of those boxes.

1621
01:16:26,250 --> 01:16:28,110
We were spilling over into both.

1622
01:16:28,110 --> 01:16:29,760
And so we were
hosting people from

1623
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:32,250
Act from New York and our homes,

1624
01:16:32,250 --> 01:16:34,830
and we were having
Dianes with them,

1625
01:16:34,830 --> 01:16:36,630
where Diane would be where we

1626
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:38,640
would literally go
into the street.

1627
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:40,470
And maybe we would
want to really bring

1628
01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:42,870
attention to the issue of

1629
01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:45,360
HIV/AIDs at the time
and the lack of funding

1630
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:48,315
that we were receiving to
help with this illness.

1631
01:16:48,315 --> 01:16:50,295
And we'd look for a
busy intersection,

1632
01:16:50,295 --> 01:16:53,310
and we would die in the
intersection and we

1633
01:16:53,310 --> 01:16:56,520
would just fall out
and cause traffic jam,

1634
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,890
anything to just get people to

1635
01:16:58,890 --> 01:17:01,725
stop and think about what
was happening around them.

1636
01:17:01,725 --> 01:17:04,950
And that really incensed
the other side.

1637
01:17:04,950 --> 01:17:06,120
When I say the other side,

1638
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,940
the santai crowd
because they felt

1639
01:17:08,940 --> 01:17:12,660
that level of street
activism making people

1640
01:17:12,660 --> 01:17:15,870
get angry and think about
it and pushing it in

1641
01:17:15,870 --> 01:17:17,880
their face that was

1642
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:19,815
counterproductive to
what they were doing.

1643
01:17:19,815 --> 01:17:21,345
And we disagreed.

1644
01:17:21,345 --> 01:17:22,620
We thought that we

1645
01:17:22,620 --> 01:17:24,690
always felt that you
needed both sides.

1646
01:17:24,690 --> 01:17:28,185
You need the people who
are going to reach them,

1647
01:17:28,185 --> 01:17:31,470
reach those that need
that in your face moment,

1648
01:17:31,470 --> 01:17:33,450
but you also need to show a side

1649
01:17:33,450 --> 01:17:35,430
of your community that consider

1650
01:17:35,430 --> 01:17:37,620
the table and have
the discussions

1651
01:17:37,620 --> 01:17:40,755
and reach those who aren't
reached the other way.

1652
01:17:40,755 --> 01:17:43,065
And so we've always

1653
01:17:43,065 --> 01:17:45,735
looked at that as a
two problem approach.

1654
01:17:45,735 --> 01:17:51,510
>> What are your perceptions
current activism [inaudible]

1655
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:53,970
>> It's interesting because I
always wondered if we would

1656
01:17:53,970 --> 01:17:58,200
end up with that gay,

1657
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,875
Martin Luther King
figure in our movement.

1658
01:18:01,875 --> 01:18:05,310
And it became apparent
at some point,

1659
01:18:05,310 --> 01:18:08,490
that wasn't the way our
movement was going to be,

1660
01:18:08,490 --> 01:18:10,170
that we were just
going to have a lot of

1661
01:18:10,170 --> 01:18:13,710
people who maybe started out in

1662
01:18:13,710 --> 01:18:17,130
the streets in low level areas

1663
01:18:17,130 --> 01:18:18,720
in their local
communities and just work

1664
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:20,955
their way up to a
national scene.

1665
01:18:20,955 --> 01:18:23,430
And that's really the way

1666
01:18:23,430 --> 01:18:27,825
our movement has really
worked, I think.

1667
01:18:27,825 --> 01:18:30,030
And it's been fine.

1668
01:18:30,030 --> 01:18:31,920
Sometimes I wish
that Harvey Milk had

1669
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:33,750
survived and I wonder

1670
01:18:33,750 --> 01:18:35,520
what it would have been
like would he have been

1671
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:37,755
able to meet the needs,

1672
01:18:37,755 --> 01:18:40,050
could he have addressed
such a diverse group

1673
01:18:40,050 --> 01:18:41,550
as the gay community?

1674
01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:44,640
Because we are all very
different from each other,

1675
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,160
just so happens that what
holds together is that we

1676
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:51,555
love people of the
same sex as their own.

1677
01:18:51,555 --> 01:18:54,780
But it's like hurting cats
sometimes in our community.

1678
01:18:54,780 --> 01:18:55,980
I don't know that one leader can

1679
01:18:55,980 --> 01:18:59,290
really represent everyone.

1680
01:18:59,300 --> 01:19:02,805
But I'm really pleased
with where we are.

1681
01:19:02,805 --> 01:19:05,535
I think it's all
occurred very quickly.

1682
01:19:05,535 --> 01:19:07,905
I think that looking back

1683
01:19:07,905 --> 01:19:11,775
when John and I were so
active here in Atlanta,

1684
01:19:11,775 --> 01:19:14,805
marriage rights weren't
even on the table.

1685
01:19:14,805 --> 01:19:17,520
Certainly we felt that we
needed marriage rights,

1686
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,095
and we deserved those.

1687
01:19:19,095 --> 01:19:22,200
But there are so
many things before.

1688
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:26,025
At that point, we were even
just trying to survive

1689
01:19:26,025 --> 01:19:29,490
literally with the AIDS
crisis looming around us.

1690
01:19:29,490 --> 01:19:32,010
And so the idea of

1691
01:19:32,010 --> 01:19:34,650
asking for marriage rights
was just so far down

1692
01:19:34,650 --> 01:19:37,575
the line that just I

1693
01:19:37,575 --> 01:19:39,060
didn't think I'd ever
seen in my lifetime,

1694
01:19:39,060 --> 01:19:40,380
to be honest with you.

1695
01:19:40,380 --> 01:19:42,750
And and I think that

1696
01:19:42,750 --> 01:19:45,060
also and that was one
of the things that

1697
01:19:45,060 --> 01:19:48,450
attracted me with
Chicago is when I left

1698
01:19:48,450 --> 01:19:52,110
the South and
realized that there

1699
01:19:52,110 --> 01:19:53,775
were some places in
the country where

1700
01:19:53,775 --> 01:19:55,470
it wasn't a daily battle

1701
01:19:55,470 --> 01:19:59,385
just to secure basic rights.

1702
01:19:59,385 --> 01:20:00,735
They had already had,

1703
01:20:00,735 --> 01:20:03,510
they had repealed their
Alimony Law in 1969,

1704
01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:05,070
the year after I was born.

1705
01:20:05,070 --> 01:20:06,960
And here I am in 1986,

1706
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:10,200
screaming at our
federal building

1707
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,905
because the Supreme Court had
upheld it here in Georgia.

1708
01:20:13,905 --> 01:20:16,320
I just felt that maybe

1709
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,830
moving to Chicago not only
for all the other reasons,

1710
01:20:19,830 --> 01:20:25,965
but that I could take a break
from those basic battles,

1711
01:20:25,965 --> 01:20:29,550
and I think where I am

1712
01:20:29,550 --> 01:20:34,140
now with it is that we've
gotten to a place in

1713
01:20:34,140 --> 01:20:35,700
some states and I'd like to

1714
01:20:35,700 --> 01:20:38,055
include Illinois as one
of those states where

1715
01:20:38,055 --> 01:20:41,820
we've secured protection from

1716
01:20:41,820 --> 01:20:44,845
discrimination and
employment and housing and

1717
01:20:44,845 --> 01:20:49,100
public accommodations and
we've made our schools

1718
01:20:49,100 --> 01:20:54,185
very safe for our students
who identify as LGBT.

1719
01:20:54,185 --> 01:21:01,340
And we've got adoption
rights securely in place,

1720
01:21:01,340 --> 01:21:03,895
so our families are
adequately protected.

1721
01:21:03,895 --> 01:21:05,670
And now we've secured
marriage equality,

1722
01:21:05,670 --> 01:21:08,235
and I was thinking about
this the other day,

1723
01:21:08,235 --> 01:21:09,960
we've checked all
those boxes off.

1724
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:11,280
Everything seems to be done.

1725
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:12,690
There's more work
of course to do to

1726
01:21:12,690 --> 01:21:15,060
fine tune it and to fully

1727
01:21:15,060 --> 01:21:21,450
become equal part in society
but the big stuff is done.

1728
01:21:21,450 --> 01:21:26,175
And I think like the
civil rights movement,

1729
01:21:26,175 --> 01:21:30,000
I think it's really
important that those of us

1730
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,380
who live in states where

1731
01:21:31,380 --> 01:21:34,170
those big items have
been accomplished,

1732
01:21:34,170 --> 01:21:35,820
we've now got to help
the other states

1733
01:21:35,820 --> 01:21:37,095
who aren't there yet.

1734
01:21:37,095 --> 01:21:39,480
It's imperative that we take

1735
01:21:39,480 --> 01:21:43,470
time to reach out to
those in Atlanta,

1736
01:21:43,470 --> 01:21:45,360
Georgia, or Mississippi,

1737
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:49,515
or the Dakotas and

1738
01:21:49,515 --> 01:21:51,900
help those communities secure

1739
01:21:51,900 --> 01:21:54,750
the rights that they
deserve and I hope that,

1740
01:21:54,750 --> 01:21:56,175
that's where we are as

1741
01:21:56,175 --> 01:21:57,480
a collective community in

1742
01:21:57,480 --> 01:21:59,430
the United States right
now that we can do that.

1743
01:21:59,430 --> 01:22:00,990
>> So you feel like that's

1744
01:22:00,990 --> 01:22:03,180
where activism is
headed at the moment,

1745
01:22:03,180 --> 01:22:05,190
just ensuring that the
entire nation security.

1746
01:22:05,190 --> 01:22:07,035
>> Absolutely. Without a doubt,

1747
01:22:07,035 --> 01:22:09,630
I think that things

1748
01:22:09,630 --> 01:22:11,955
are moving so fast with
marriage equality.

1749
01:22:11,955 --> 01:22:15,030
I really fully think that within

1750
01:22:15,030 --> 01:22:19,155
a year that issue will
be settled nationwide,

1751
01:22:19,155 --> 01:22:21,480
one way or the other,
whether it's through

1752
01:22:21,480 --> 01:22:23,220
a Supreme Court decision that

1753
01:22:23,220 --> 01:22:25,350
will finally put
the issue to rest.

1754
01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:27,600
Or whether the remaining

1755
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,000
federal appeals courts
will go ahead and

1756
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,595
rule in favor of
marriage equality

1757
01:22:32,595 --> 01:22:35,235
and it will be
settled in that way.

1758
01:22:35,235 --> 01:22:37,485
It's going to be one of
those two ways, though.

1759
01:22:37,485 --> 01:22:40,560
I would like to think that
within a year that happens.

1760
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:45,870
So then what's left is the
issue around adoption rights.

1761
01:22:45,870 --> 01:22:48,690
And what I'm seeing
personally is that

1762
01:22:48,690 --> 01:22:52,905
as states are dropping
their marriage bans,

1763
01:22:52,905 --> 01:22:55,410
that the second natural
step that's happening

1764
01:22:55,410 --> 01:22:58,080
quite quickly afterwards is that

1765
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:02,130
they're allowing
couples to fully start

1766
01:23:02,130 --> 01:23:04,290
families through adoption
and fostering that

1767
01:23:04,290 --> 01:23:07,500
happened just recently in
Utah without any fight.

1768
01:23:07,500 --> 01:23:10,500
So then what we're
left with is making

1769
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:14,190
our schools safer and that's

1770
01:23:14,190 --> 01:23:15,120
something I think
that we're going to

1771
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:16,200
be continuing to work on

1772
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,660
across the country
and hopefully at

1773
01:23:18,660 --> 01:23:21,780
federal level and securing

1774
01:23:21,780 --> 01:23:24,000
protections and employment to

1775
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:26,655
public accommodations housing,

1776
01:23:26,655 --> 01:23:27,930
and I think that's going to

1777
01:23:27,930 --> 01:23:29,235
have to happen at
a federal level.

1778
01:23:29,235 --> 01:23:30,510
I think we're close,

1779
01:23:30,510 --> 01:23:32,190
and I think that working across

1780
01:23:32,190 --> 01:23:36,810
the aisle and helping
to continue to

1781
01:23:36,810 --> 01:23:40,650
elect people who understand

1782
01:23:40,650 --> 01:23:42,360
and get the importance
of those issues

1783
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,820
regardless of what
party they belong to,

1784
01:23:44,820 --> 01:23:46,800
I think that we'll be pretty

1785
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:48,555
close to securing
that soon as well.

1786
01:23:48,555 --> 01:23:51,030
And then really what
we're looking at next is,

1787
01:23:51,030 --> 01:23:55,230
what do we do with our seniors
as they start to grow old?

1788
01:23:55,230 --> 01:23:57,960
How do we take care
of those seniors who

1789
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,485
are quite often in a
different place than

1790
01:24:01,485 --> 01:24:05,940
seniors who are heterosexual
and that most of them don't

1791
01:24:05,940 --> 01:24:07,650
have children that they

1792
01:24:07,650 --> 01:24:10,380
can look back and ask
for a helping hand.

1793
01:24:10,380 --> 01:24:12,360
And what are we going
to do as a community

1794
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:14,070
to make sure that
they're taken care

1795
01:24:14,070 --> 01:24:15,810
of and they get

1796
01:24:15,810 --> 01:24:19,725
the needs met that they
have in their old age.

1797
01:24:19,725 --> 01:24:23,505
>> You just mentioned the
diversity of the gay community.

1798
01:24:23,505 --> 01:24:25,665
But there's often
the perception that

1799
01:24:25,665 --> 01:24:30,225
there's a monolithic
gay community.

1800
01:24:30,225 --> 01:24:33,540
For instance, there's no one
spokesperson obviously for

1801
01:24:33,540 --> 01:24:36,120
the heterosexual community
and no one would expect that.

1802
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:37,590
Can you talk a little bit more

1803
01:24:37,590 --> 01:24:39,265
about your perception of that?

1804
01:24:39,265 --> 01:24:44,400
>> You have to start over.
I had to take some water.

1805
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:46,680
That was way too much
all of a sudden.

1806
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:51,705
A drink after that.
I don't even know.

1807
01:24:51,705 --> 01:24:53,070
>> She hits you with that.

1808
01:24:53,070 --> 01:24:55,260
>> I'm like, what was

1809
01:24:55,260 --> 01:24:58,470
her name in the White
House press Corp that

1810
01:24:58,470 --> 01:25:03,710
was set in the front for all
those years, Helen, are you?

1811
01:25:03,710 --> 01:25:11,000
>> I try.

1812
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:12,680
>> You've got her [inaudible]

1813
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:14,340
>> I'm on my way.

1814
01:25:18,350 --> 01:25:20,610
>> Let me listen.

1815
01:25:20,610 --> 01:25:23,655
>> You mentioned the diversity
of the gay community.

1816
01:25:23,655 --> 01:25:26,490
However, there's often the
perception that there's

1817
01:25:26,490 --> 01:25:30,105
a monolithic gay
rights gay community.

1818
01:25:30,105 --> 01:25:31,905
Whereas on the other side,

1819
01:25:31,905 --> 01:25:33,540
no one would ever
expect there to be

1820
01:25:33,540 --> 01:25:35,850
one spokesperson for the
heterosexual community.

1821
01:25:35,850 --> 01:25:37,170
Can you talk a little
bit more about

1822
01:25:37,170 --> 01:25:39,780
your perceptions of that and
how that affects gay rights?

1823
01:25:39,780 --> 01:25:43,770
[LAUGHTER]

1824
01:25:43,770 --> 01:25:45,585
>> I don't even know
where to go with this.

1825
01:25:45,585 --> 01:25:48,210
>> Anyway, we can settle this.

1826
01:25:48,210 --> 01:25:50,670
It's something that John

1827
01:25:50,670 --> 01:25:52,200
brought up that we found
really interesting.

1828
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:53,550
>> What did he say?
Let me hear this

1829
01:25:53,550 --> 01:25:55,170
because we don't always
agree on everything.

1830
01:25:55,170 --> 01:25:57,180
[LAUGHTER]

1831
01:25:57,180 --> 01:25:59,430
>> You definitely
mentioned in discussing

1832
01:25:59,430 --> 01:26:02,475
how diverse the
gay community is,

1833
01:26:02,475 --> 01:26:05,340
and he mentioned that
people often think

1834
01:26:05,340 --> 01:26:10,260
of a gay community
as one entity.

1835
01:26:10,260 --> 01:26:15,105
And I think his point
essentially with that was

1836
01:26:15,105 --> 01:26:17,190
how it affects activism
and the fact that you have

1837
01:26:17,190 --> 01:26:19,905
these incredibly diverse
groups for different needs,

1838
01:26:19,905 --> 01:26:22,930
but it's all lumped
under gay rights.

1839
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:27,065
>> Yes, there's an issue there.

1840
01:26:27,065 --> 01:26:28,490
I just don't know how to even

1841
01:26:28,490 --> 01:26:29,510
approach it because

1842
01:26:29,510 --> 01:26:30,590
this is something
that I'm struggling.

1843
01:26:30,590 --> 01:26:33,315
Are we taping now? Because
we can talk about this.

1844
01:26:33,315 --> 01:26:36,250
I think I can be open
and honest about this.

1845
01:26:37,580 --> 01:26:41,385
This is tough for me
because I feel like

1846
01:26:41,385 --> 01:26:44,970
as our umbrella is expanding.

1847
01:26:44,970 --> 01:26:49,785
And when I was starting here
at Kennesaw as an activist,

1848
01:26:49,785 --> 01:26:52,005
it was LG,

1849
01:26:52,005 --> 01:26:54,090
that was it, lesbian, gay.

1850
01:26:54,090 --> 01:26:56,790
And we would fight over

1851
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:59,040
which came first,
and a lot of times,

1852
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:00,720
we always had to
remember the L first

1853
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:02,520
because we wanted to make

1854
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:04,200
sure that the lesbians

1855
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,765
felt that they really,
truly were included.

1856
01:27:06,765 --> 01:27:08,520
And then the B came,

1857
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:13,515
and so we start
adding and it's been

1858
01:27:13,515 --> 01:27:20,415
interesting because I think
with some in my generation,

1859
01:27:20,415 --> 01:27:22,650
things are changing
so quickly within

1860
01:27:22,650 --> 01:27:24,210
the community and
people are seeing

1861
01:27:24,210 --> 01:27:27,210
themselves through
different lenses

1862
01:27:27,210 --> 01:27:32,220
and they're identified
differently.

1863
01:27:32,220 --> 01:27:34,170
And then you have

1864
01:27:34,170 --> 01:27:38,280
sexual women minorities
that feel a kinship to

1865
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:41,070
the gay and lesbian community
and feel that there's

1866
01:27:41,070 --> 01:27:45,780
many overlapping connections
that they jump on with us.

1867
01:27:45,780 --> 01:27:46,800
And in many ways,

1868
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:48,630
I think that's healthy,

1869
01:27:48,630 --> 01:27:53,730
but I think that it's
hard for people,

1870
01:27:53,730 --> 01:27:58,125
at least in my generation
to keep up with it.

1871
01:27:58,125 --> 01:28:01,170
Even here at Kennesaw before,

1872
01:28:01,170 --> 01:28:02,460
like I said, in '91,

1873
01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:06,780
we were just gay and lesbian
or lesbian gay group,

1874
01:28:06,780 --> 01:28:10,620
and now it's the LGBTQI or IQ

1875
01:28:10,620 --> 01:28:13,170
and I don't even

1876
01:28:13,170 --> 01:28:14,550
know for sure if
most people wouldn't

1877
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:16,035
know what those represent.

1878
01:28:16,035 --> 01:28:19,695
And I question whether or not

1879
01:28:19,695 --> 01:28:24,525
that works in our community.

1880
01:28:24,525 --> 01:28:26,820
And if we don't
really need to maybe

1881
01:28:26,820 --> 01:28:28,890
take a step back and educate
ourselves a little bit,

1882
01:28:28,890 --> 01:28:34,080
I know I certainly
do on how those

1883
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:36,180
mesh together and what

1884
01:28:36,180 --> 01:28:39,600
the experiences are those
people and their needs.

1885
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:43,755
And even me saying those people,

1886
01:28:43,755 --> 01:28:48,060
it's something that I

1887
01:28:48,060 --> 01:28:50,340
think that we're going to
have to reflect back on

1888
01:28:50,340 --> 01:28:54,120
ourselves and get comfortable

1889
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,240
with and help pull them along.

1890
01:28:57,240 --> 01:29:00,990
It's a very complicated issue

1891
01:29:00,990 --> 01:29:04,020
right now and one that's
not resolved in any way.

1892
01:29:04,020 --> 01:29:05,610
And I can think even with

1893
01:29:05,610 --> 01:29:07,500
the transgender
community because

1894
01:29:07,500 --> 01:29:08,640
a lot of attention now is

1895
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:11,010
being placed on issues

1896
01:29:11,010 --> 01:29:14,280
around sexual identity
or gender identity

1897
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:19,035
and those identify as

1898
01:29:19,035 --> 01:29:21,270
gender other than the
one they reported.

1899
01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:24,450
And I think that there's just

1900
01:29:24,450 --> 01:29:27,420
so much that we
still need to learn

1901
01:29:27,420 --> 01:29:30,030
together as a community
to make everyone

1902
01:29:30,030 --> 01:29:34,860
feel part of the movement before

1903
01:29:34,860 --> 01:29:37,905
we can go out and collectively

1904
01:29:37,905 --> 01:29:40,500
help effect change on

1905
01:29:40,500 --> 01:29:43,080
a broader basis if
that makes sense.

1906
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:45,735
>> Excellent answer to my
incredibly muddled question.

1907
01:29:45,735 --> 01:29:46,950
>> Well, and that was
a muddled answer,

1908
01:29:46,950 --> 01:29:48,960
but it's something that I'm

1909
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,420
still working on as a person.
And I think that's healthy.

1910
01:29:51,420 --> 01:29:55,020
I think that we need
to be at a point in

1911
01:29:55,020 --> 01:29:59,250
our community where it's okay
to say I don't understand,

1912
01:29:59,250 --> 01:30:02,370
or I don't feel
that I understand

1913
01:30:02,370 --> 01:30:05,325
your plight and
help me understand.

1914
01:30:05,325 --> 01:30:07,770
I think that sometimes
we're scared to do

1915
01:30:07,770 --> 01:30:10,365
that because we're going to

1916
01:30:10,365 --> 01:30:16,140
come across insensitive,
or maybe uneducated.

1917
01:30:16,140 --> 01:30:19,890
And I think that those who are

1918
01:30:19,890 --> 01:30:23,805
trying to join us in
this struggle for

1919
01:30:23,805 --> 01:30:26,730
equality need to also
keep in mind that

1920
01:30:26,730 --> 01:30:29,730
it's important to educate with

1921
01:30:29,730 --> 01:30:33,060
kindness and not be so
quick to assume that

1922
01:30:33,060 --> 01:30:37,740
someone's maybe being
disrespectful or hurtful,

1923
01:30:37,740 --> 01:30:40,980
but maybe just take a
moment to try to educate

1924
01:30:40,980 --> 01:30:43,050
and do that in a way that

1925
01:30:43,050 --> 01:30:46,390
will help bring them
along with your cause.

1926
01:30:47,270 --> 01:30:50,610
>> You mentioned living in
both Atlanta and Chicago.

1927
01:30:50,610 --> 01:30:52,020
Can you talk about how

1928
01:30:52,020 --> 01:30:55,330
the communities in two cities
are different or alike?

1929
01:30:57,350 --> 01:31:02,050
>> That's something to
think about for a second.

1930
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:06,555
How they're different.

1931
01:31:06,555 --> 01:31:09,120
How's the North and
South different?

1932
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:12,690
I was amazed at how

1933
01:31:12,690 --> 01:31:14,850
much further along
the gay community

1934
01:31:14,850 --> 01:31:16,320
is in the North versus

1935
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:20,820
the South and how
we're perceived

1936
01:31:20,820 --> 01:31:23,310
and how some of the things

1937
01:31:23,310 --> 01:31:26,550
that I take for
granted up there,

1938
01:31:26,550 --> 01:31:29,670
I come down here and
there's still issues.

1939
01:31:29,670 --> 01:31:32,100
An example, when I was

1940
01:31:32,100 --> 01:31:35,430
over at the student
retention services,

1941
01:31:35,430 --> 01:31:39,510
room today, I asked about
the window, and they said.

1942
01:31:39,510 --> 01:31:41,310
Well, we put film up so

1943
01:31:41,310 --> 01:31:43,830
that it's a two-way
mirror situation,

1944
01:31:43,830 --> 01:31:45,270
so we can see out,
but no one can see

1945
01:31:45,270 --> 01:31:48,340
in because we want people
to feel comfortable.

1946
01:31:51,140 --> 01:31:55,395
I guess we don't think
about that in Chicago.

1947
01:31:55,395 --> 01:31:59,235
Our gay center is all glass.

1948
01:31:59,235 --> 01:32:02,940
It's got a full two sides
is nothing but glass walls.

1949
01:32:02,940 --> 01:32:04,440
So you can see everything

1950
01:32:04,440 --> 01:32:06,165
that's happening
in the gay center.

1951
01:32:06,165 --> 01:32:09,000
So it's interesting,

1952
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,640
I'm processing what that means.

1953
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:13,215
And I get it,

1954
01:32:13,215 --> 01:32:16,740
I understand that
people are in a journey

1955
01:32:16,740 --> 01:32:18,570
where they don't
feel comfortable

1956
01:32:18,570 --> 01:32:20,640
yet and they're at
a different place.

1957
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:22,650
And I know there's

1958
01:32:22,650 --> 01:32:25,140
got to be people like
that in Chicago as well.

1959
01:32:25,140 --> 01:32:26,940
But it's certainly
looked at differently,

1960
01:32:26,940 --> 01:32:29,310
and then so I
sometimes step back

1961
01:32:29,310 --> 01:32:33,315
and think about that when I
come across little instances.

1962
01:32:33,315 --> 01:32:35,700
And then just with
some of the things

1963
01:32:35,700 --> 01:32:38,040
that I've done in Chicago,

1964
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,485
I'll give you an
example with the school

1965
01:32:40,485 --> 01:32:42,330
the children attended
in the city.

1966
01:32:42,330 --> 01:32:46,245
So they attended a school
named Little Horse.

1967
01:32:46,245 --> 01:32:49,560
It's a public school
school in Chicago.

1968
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:53,475
It happens to be in Boys Town,

1969
01:32:53,475 --> 01:32:58,305
and that would be the
equivalent here to say midtown,

1970
01:32:58,305 --> 01:33:01,860
maybe an elementary school
that's straddling there.

1971
01:33:01,860 --> 01:33:05,820
So I sent the kids to
school there as many in

1972
01:33:05,820 --> 01:33:07,680
town families were doing

1973
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:11,470
and would do here
as well in schools.

1974
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:15,840
So what we started doing around

1975
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:17,610
Gay Pride because
we were a number of

1976
01:33:17,610 --> 01:33:19,740
gay families at the school,

1977
01:33:19,740 --> 01:33:22,440
we were looking for some
way to get the children

1978
01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:26,460
involved in the issue around

1979
01:33:26,460 --> 01:33:29,880
diversity and
celebrating pride for

1980
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:31,710
who you are and
being proud of who

1981
01:33:31,710 --> 01:33:33,600
you are and being proud
of their community,

1982
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:35,925
which includes many
gays and lesbians.

1983
01:33:35,925 --> 01:33:39,120
So what we did was
we had tons of

1984
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:41,040
fabric and we had them cut up

1985
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:42,975
in strips of all
different colors.

1986
01:33:42,975 --> 01:33:45,780
And we set up a project

1987
01:33:45,780 --> 01:33:48,330
where all the
elementary school kids

1988
01:33:48,330 --> 01:33:49,830
and there were 600
and some odd kids in

1989
01:33:49,830 --> 01:33:52,545
the school would tie

1990
01:33:52,545 --> 01:33:57,450
a color on the fence along
the fence on the street.

1991
01:33:57,450 --> 01:34:00,210
And we had it set up so that

1992
01:34:00,210 --> 01:34:02,670
as they tied it depending
on their color,

1993
01:34:02,670 --> 01:34:05,685
it created a huge rainbow flag.

1994
01:34:05,685 --> 01:34:08,205
And so when the wind would blow,

1995
01:34:08,205 --> 01:34:11,160
the fabric would
just flit out into

1996
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:14,235
the sidewalk and it just
stunned the neighborhood.

1997
01:34:14,235 --> 01:34:16,110
They were so touched.

1998
01:34:16,110 --> 01:34:18,030
We had a little sign that talked

1999
01:34:18,030 --> 01:34:21,030
about how we celebrated all of

2000
01:34:21,030 --> 01:34:22,890
our families at Little Horse

2001
01:34:22,890 --> 01:34:26,835
and hoping that they
enjoyed our display.

2002
01:34:26,835 --> 01:34:30,680
And I couldn't see
that happening here.

2003
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:33,740
I think that Atlanta is
in a different place,

2004
01:34:33,740 --> 01:34:39,590
that if an elementary school
supported their children

2005
01:34:39,590 --> 01:34:41,660
showing just a
simple gesture like

2006
01:34:41,660 --> 01:34:45,795
that it just wouldn't be
allowed, there'd be an uproar.

2007
01:34:45,795 --> 01:34:47,940
And so it's a little
things like that that I

2008
01:34:47,940 --> 01:34:50,325
notice that are different.

2009
01:34:50,325 --> 01:34:53,070
The politics are
somewhat the same.

2010
01:34:53,070 --> 01:34:57,510
I had alluded to the
pride and how you get

2011
01:34:57,510 --> 01:35:00,660
entrenched the same people doing

2012
01:35:00,660 --> 01:35:02,220
the same job and doing things

2013
01:35:02,220 --> 01:35:04,140
way because of the way
they've always been done.

2014
01:35:04,140 --> 01:35:05,910
And I think that's
just a challenge

2015
01:35:05,910 --> 01:35:08,265
in general with movements.

2016
01:35:08,265 --> 01:35:10,740
And life in general,

2017
01:35:10,740 --> 01:35:12,810
people don't necessarily
like change very

2018
01:35:12,810 --> 01:35:15,675
much and just
helping that along.

2019
01:35:15,675 --> 01:35:19,845
And certainly, for Chicago,

2020
01:35:19,845 --> 01:35:22,980
we have the advantage of size

2021
01:35:22,980 --> 01:35:25,410
and just the sheer number

2022
01:35:25,410 --> 01:35:27,450
of people and where
they come from,

2023
01:35:27,450 --> 01:35:31,680
and that it adds a
different element to

2024
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:34,080
what diversity means and
the fact that we really do

2025
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:35,600
have to learn to live with

2026
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:37,190
people who are very
different from ourselves.

2027
01:35:37,190 --> 01:35:39,470
And maybe that
hasn't happened to

2028
01:35:39,470 --> 01:35:41,975
that same extent here
in the South yet,

2029
01:35:41,975 --> 01:35:43,475
where you haven't had

2030
01:35:43,475 --> 01:35:48,050
large communities
that have settled,

2031
01:35:48,050 --> 01:35:50,795
and I think that is
happening here in Atlanta

2032
01:35:50,795 --> 01:35:54,035
more and more as the
city continues to grow,

2033
01:35:54,035 --> 01:35:57,870
but there are still
differences, as I mentioned.

2034
01:35:59,050 --> 01:36:01,080
>> In your observations,

2035
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:04,720
how have perceptions of the
community changed over time?

2036
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:08,290
>> Perceptions.

2037
01:36:08,480 --> 01:36:12,790
As the AIDs epidemic,

2038
01:36:13,670 --> 01:36:18,390
it's become a manageable
disease that people live with.

2039
01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:20,490
That has certainly been

2040
01:36:20,490 --> 01:36:22,980
taken out of the
argument, I think.

2041
01:36:22,980 --> 01:36:25,710
When I look back at some of

2042
01:36:25,710 --> 01:36:27,170
the people who would protest

2043
01:36:27,170 --> 01:36:28,910
against us and their signage,

2044
01:36:28,910 --> 01:36:34,200
and it was always focused
around us being diseased.

2045
01:36:36,130 --> 01:36:40,040
Thank God for AIDs and

2046
01:36:40,040 --> 01:36:43,200
us dying and you don't
see that as much anymore.

2047
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:45,300
I think people fully understand

2048
01:36:45,300 --> 01:36:51,020
that's not part of the argument

2049
01:36:51,020 --> 01:36:54,440
and that it was not something
that was brought on to

2050
01:36:54,440 --> 01:36:56,630
against us and that it truly

2051
01:36:56,630 --> 01:36:59,765
does affect other
populations as well.

2052
01:36:59,765 --> 01:37:04,470
And so they had to
move on to other ways

2053
01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:08,985
to counter the movement that
we have towards equality.

2054
01:37:08,985 --> 01:37:10,740
And so now,

2055
01:37:10,740 --> 01:37:14,955
the argument seems to
be more around change.

2056
01:37:14,955 --> 01:37:18,300
Really let's not
move forward with

2057
01:37:18,300 --> 01:37:20,040
marriage equality
because marriage has

2058
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:22,680
always been between
a man and a woman,

2059
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:24,945
and that should be enough.

2060
01:37:24,945 --> 01:37:27,360
Are the other argument being,

2061
01:37:27,360 --> 01:37:29,265
what's best for the children?

2062
01:37:29,265 --> 01:37:30,630
I think again,

2063
01:37:30,630 --> 01:37:32,460
as they see more families

2064
01:37:32,460 --> 01:37:36,765
and headed by two
women or two men,

2065
01:37:36,765 --> 01:37:38,820
and those children
are growing up.

2066
01:37:38,820 --> 01:37:40,590
And you just see

2067
01:37:40,590 --> 01:37:44,850
how wonderfully normal
and wonderful kids are,

2068
01:37:44,850 --> 01:37:48,525
that argument falling
to the wayside as well.

2069
01:37:48,525 --> 01:37:52,710
And I just think that as
each individual person

2070
01:37:52,710 --> 01:37:54,030
continues to come out

2071
01:37:54,030 --> 01:37:56,640
and feel supported
enough to do that.

2072
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:59,340
And have those one on

2073
01:37:59,340 --> 01:38:00,900
one connections
with their friends

2074
01:38:00,900 --> 01:38:02,490
and neighbors and all
that, that really,

2075
01:38:02,490 --> 01:38:04,740
I think has been the biggest

2076
01:38:04,740 --> 01:38:09,165
plus in our community and
changing hearts and minds.

2077
01:38:09,165 --> 01:38:11,880
And certainly,
that's spilled over

2078
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,610
into media in the ways we're

2079
01:38:14,610 --> 01:38:17,150
portrayed now versus the fact

2080
01:38:17,150 --> 01:38:20,465
that we weren't even betrayed
at all hardly on TV.

2081
01:38:20,465 --> 01:38:22,340
Back in the early days,

2082
01:38:22,340 --> 01:38:23,480
and if we were,

2083
01:38:23,480 --> 01:38:26,945
it was usually, in a
very negative light.

2084
01:38:26,945 --> 01:38:30,110
I mentioned as a kid,

2085
01:38:30,110 --> 01:38:34,025
images of gays or
lesbians on TV.

2086
01:38:34,025 --> 01:38:37,250
I never remember seeing
any lesbians on TV,

2087
01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:39,470
but the gay men that I saw were

2088
01:38:39,470 --> 01:38:41,795
always just over
the top flamboyant,

2089
01:38:41,795 --> 01:38:47,960
and that's just
such a small idea

2090
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:50,925
of what a gay man can be.

2091
01:38:50,925 --> 01:38:53,550
Because we come in all
different mannerisms,

2092
01:38:53,550 --> 01:38:54,720
shapes and sizes.

2093
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:57,090
And but for me as a kid,

2094
01:38:57,090 --> 01:38:58,890
it was the [inaudible] and

2095
01:38:58,890 --> 01:39:00,450
there's something wrong
with [inaudible].

2096
01:39:00,450 --> 01:39:03,450
They're great and I

2097
01:39:03,450 --> 01:39:05,550
can even identify on
some level with that,

2098
01:39:05,550 --> 01:39:07,230
but it's not fair

2099
01:39:07,230 --> 01:39:10,245
to have that as the
only image growing up.

2100
01:39:10,245 --> 01:39:14,865
And so I'm happy that
today kids growing up,

2101
01:39:14,865 --> 01:39:19,335
whether they're questioning
their sexual orientation

2102
01:39:19,335 --> 01:39:21,360
or maybe they're
just straight kids,

2103
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:23,220
but they at least get to see

2104
01:39:23,220 --> 01:39:25,560
that we're really no
different than anyone else.

2105
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:28,950
And that's been great.

2106
01:39:28,950 --> 01:39:31,770
>> So finally, David,
is there anything we

2107
01:39:31,770 --> 01:39:35,410
haven't discussed today
that you'd like to mention.

2108
01:39:35,660 --> 01:39:38,535
>> I really can't think of

2109
01:39:38,535 --> 01:39:42,820
anything that we've
left off the table.

2110
01:39:43,910 --> 01:39:46,680
Can you guys? Is there anything

2111
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:55,800
that you can think that
we need to talk about?

2112
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,290
>> [inaudible].

2113
01:39:58,290 --> 01:40:02,700
>> When I left Kinsal
State College,

2114
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:08,950
I think it was still
called back in '92,

2115
01:40:09,020 --> 01:40:12,300
I never wanted to see
this place again.

2116
01:40:12,300 --> 01:40:15,540
It it was such a
painful experience.

2117
01:40:15,540 --> 01:40:18,690
I was so burn out
by the experience.

2118
01:40:18,690 --> 01:40:21,510
And not just with my
experience on campus,

2119
01:40:21,510 --> 01:40:23,190
but with Cobb County
and all the stuff that

2120
01:40:23,190 --> 01:40:25,065
was happening in this county.

2121
01:40:25,065 --> 01:40:29,745
It became a place where we
just didn't feel wanted,

2122
01:40:29,745 --> 01:40:34,380
welcomed, and we didn't
care to be here.

2123
01:40:34,380 --> 01:40:35,925
And there were better places.

2124
01:40:35,925 --> 01:40:41,295
And that was tough
for me because,

2125
01:40:41,295 --> 01:40:43,170
this is my home,

2126
01:40:43,170 --> 01:40:46,020
and I have always felt angry

2127
01:40:46,020 --> 01:40:50,070
that someone like
myself who grew up

2128
01:40:50,070 --> 01:40:53,100
in Cobb County for people

2129
01:40:53,100 --> 01:40:56,340
to move into the county
and then somehow tell me

2130
01:40:56,340 --> 01:41:01,215
that I don't belong here
because my lifestyle doesn't

2131
01:41:01,215 --> 01:41:04,110
conform to their ideals of what

2132
01:41:04,110 --> 01:41:07,425
someone should be or
who they should love.

2133
01:41:07,425 --> 01:41:12,405
I find incredibly insulting
and it's bothered me,

2134
01:41:12,405 --> 01:41:15,570
especially during the
top citizens coalitions

2135
01:41:15,570 --> 01:41:17,355
fight against the commissioners,

2136
01:41:17,355 --> 01:41:21,420
many of whom were not from
this county for them to

2137
01:41:21,420 --> 01:41:25,545
tell me who grew up here
that I didn't belong here.

2138
01:41:25,545 --> 01:41:28,395
I just could not
believe the goal.

2139
01:41:28,395 --> 01:41:30,615
And so when I left,

2140
01:41:30,615 --> 01:41:36,045
I left never wanting to
see this place again.

2141
01:41:36,045 --> 01:41:43,290
And it wasn't really
until I realized

2142
01:41:43,290 --> 01:41:46,920
that people cared
about what I had

2143
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:51,120
done here that I gave
the school any thought.

2144
01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:53,340
Because again, it was
just too painful.

2145
01:41:53,340 --> 01:41:57,570
And I think I approached it with

2146
01:41:57,570 --> 01:42:02,610
some curiosity on what was
happening here that suddenly,

2147
01:42:02,610 --> 01:42:04,290
they would have an interest in

2148
01:42:04,290 --> 01:42:07,710
what little involvement
I had here on campus.

2149
01:42:07,710 --> 01:42:11,310
Of course, it was great
for the ego as well,

2150
01:42:11,310 --> 01:42:13,425
I'm not going to
lie to you there.

2151
01:42:13,425 --> 01:42:16,815
But when I got here,

2152
01:42:16,815 --> 01:42:20,745
I was just absolutely amazed.

2153
01:42:20,745 --> 01:42:22,530
I was amazed on so
many different levels.

2154
01:42:22,530 --> 01:42:25,230
I was amazed at how large

2155
01:42:25,230 --> 01:42:29,490
the campus is now compared
to the days when I was here.

2156
01:42:29,490 --> 01:42:34,575
And I was amazed

2157
01:42:34,575 --> 01:42:36,780
at the buildings and

2158
01:42:36,780 --> 01:42:38,250
the interesting
architecture that

2159
01:42:38,250 --> 01:42:39,525
seems to be springing up.

2160
01:42:39,525 --> 01:42:41,280
And just the interest

2161
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:44,835
and the community
seems to have here

2162
01:42:44,835 --> 01:42:52,395
of building a true
campus that's pleasant,

2163
01:42:52,395 --> 01:42:54,810
that's it's nice to
be around and it

2164
01:42:54,810 --> 01:42:57,240
was just interesting
visually stimulating.

2165
01:42:57,240 --> 01:42:58,890
And even like with the dorms,

2166
01:42:58,890 --> 01:43:01,155
everything seems to be nice and

2167
01:43:01,155 --> 01:43:04,930
a place that you want to be at.

2168
01:43:05,390 --> 01:43:09,495
And then there's the
level of community.

2169
01:43:09,495 --> 01:43:11,070
When I was here before,

2170
01:43:11,070 --> 01:43:13,470
you would get out of your car,

2171
01:43:13,470 --> 01:43:15,390
go to class, get back
in your car, and leave.

2172
01:43:15,390 --> 01:43:17,730
And there were very few of
us who really wanted to

2173
01:43:17,730 --> 01:43:21,670
even attempt to build
community on campus.

2174
01:43:21,770 --> 01:43:24,330
I know that there are
still many students

2175
01:43:24,330 --> 01:43:26,100
here that are what

2176
01:43:26,100 --> 01:43:27,300
you'd consider maybe commuter

2177
01:43:27,300 --> 01:43:29,895
students that don't
live on campus.

2178
01:43:29,895 --> 01:43:34,140
But you can't argue that
there's no community here now.

2179
01:43:34,140 --> 01:43:36,210
It's just you see it
everywhere you look,

2180
01:43:36,210 --> 01:43:38,250
you see people hanging out

2181
01:43:38,250 --> 01:43:41,100
and just enjoying
each other's company,

2182
01:43:41,100 --> 01:43:43,320
and there's just so many
different activities here to do,

2183
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:44,610
and they're addressing
the needs of

2184
01:43:44,610 --> 01:43:48,630
so many different micro
communities within the school.

2185
01:43:48,630 --> 01:43:53,025
And they all seem to be
co existing wonderfully,

2186
01:43:53,025 --> 01:43:54,540
and there's going to be

2187
01:43:54,540 --> 01:43:56,880
hiccups and there are going
to be those moments where

2188
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:00,540
you have to take a step
back and examine biases

2189
01:44:00,540 --> 01:44:02,550
and incidents that may

2190
01:44:02,550 --> 01:44:04,830
happen with one
community or other next.

2191
01:44:04,830 --> 01:44:06,990
But's part of, I think,

2192
01:44:06,990 --> 01:44:10,680
in education and learning

2193
01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:13,050
to live with people who are
different from yourselves.

2194
01:44:13,050 --> 01:44:18,585
And Kinsale now is
providing a space,

2195
01:44:18,585 --> 01:44:21,180
not just for gay lesbian,

2196
01:44:21,180 --> 01:44:22,710
transgender bisexual and

2197
01:44:22,710 --> 01:44:25,140
all the other sexual
minority communities

2198
01:44:25,140 --> 01:44:26,955
to have safe space,

2199
01:44:26,955 --> 01:44:29,160
but they're providing
an opportunity

2200
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:30,660
for so many communities.

2201
01:44:30,660 --> 01:44:32,190
Not just to have
their own safe space,

2202
01:44:32,190 --> 01:44:34,500
but to learn how to
work with each other.

2203
01:44:34,500 --> 01:44:37,260
And I think that in of itself is

2204
01:44:37,260 --> 01:44:38,520
the most valuable piece of

2205
01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:40,410
education and learning that's

2206
01:44:40,410 --> 01:44:42,910
taking place on this
campus right now.