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Today is Monday,
September 11, 2023.

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My name is Adina Langer,

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Curator of the Museum of History
and Holocaust Education

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and I'm here in the museum
with Hilbert Margol to record

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a Legacy series interview

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about his experiences
during World War II. So

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can you start please by
telling me your full name?

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Hilbert Margol.

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And do you agreed
to this interview? Pardon?

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Do you agreed to this interview?

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Of course. Excellent, thanks.

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We always just like to get
that recorded in as a back-up.

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So, can you please tell me
when and where you were born?

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Jacksonville, Florida,
February 22, 1924.

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And what were your
parents' names?

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My father's name was Morris
Margol. Originally Margolis,but

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once he was in the
United States,

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he opened a small
clothing store and he was

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advised to drop the
IS, which he did.

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He originally came from

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a little village in
Lithuania, Pushalot, Lithuania.

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Before that, he went to London
to live with his sister

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and brother. Came to the US,

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ended up in
Jacksonville, Florida.

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My mother came to
the US as an infant,

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also from Lithuania,
but a different town.

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She ended up with her
family, Baltimore, Maryland.

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She ended up in Jacksonville,

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Florida and they got married.

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And do you have any siblings?

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Did you have any siblings?

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Yes. First of all,

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I have older brothers,

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three, just almost
exactly three years older.

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I also have an identical
twin brother, Howard.

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And younger sister, your Bernice ,

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Wolfe, living in Tampa, Florida.

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And you mentioned your
father had a clothing store. What,

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What kind of work
did your parents do?

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Well, my father ended up as

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a peddler selling
ladies dresses.

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And from that, he
made enough money to

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open a small clothing store in

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a black business
teacher in Jackson.

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And what was your neighborhood

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like in Jacksonville?
Your neighborhood,

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What was it like?
Living in Jack—. Yeah,

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what do you remember
about Jacksonville?

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Oh, well, I remember
every year on my brother,

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and my birthday, it's February 22,

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we used to have a parade
downtown Jacksonville

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honoring George Washington.

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Because once we were old enough,

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we thought it was a parade in

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our honor since it was
our birthday as well.

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So I can just share, my birthday
is actually February 20,

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so, I also grew up thinking

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President's Day was
special for me too.

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So, that's, that's funny,

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I, I can commiserate. Well, I would, I would tell

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you every year on our birthday,

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our mother would remind
us we were born on

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George Washington's
birthday, and we could

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never tell a lie. So
throughout our lives,

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we tried honoring her request.

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So, you mentioned that

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your father's store was

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in the black section
of Jacksonville. Yes.

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What, what do you remember about
segregation in Jacksonville?

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Well, certainly I remember
because to visit[needs confirmation] our father,

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operate the store
six days a week.

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Sunday was the only day it was
closed. During the week

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we never saw our father
because he would leave.

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He had to walk some
miles to the store.

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We were still sleeping.

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And then he would come home,

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close the store at
09:00 at night.

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So, we were sleeping by
the time he got home,

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so if we wanted to see
him other than Sundays,

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we would have to get on our
bicycles and go to the store,

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which we would do on occasions

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after school, sometimes
on Saturdays.

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And your neighborhood very

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different from the area
where the store was?

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Did it look different
or seem different?

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Yes. We actually became

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aware and acquainted with

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some black business
owners in stores,

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especially across the street

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fror my father's stores,

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Anderson's Smoke Shop.

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He sold every kind
of tobacco products.

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So he, my father would do his
tax return every year.

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In return, he would
pay my father 
with cans of 
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tobacco for his pipe and
boxes of teenagers [needs confirmation] cigars.

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My father never
smoked cigarettes,

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always his pipe and cigar.

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Next door was Vandora
Jackson's cafe and bakery.

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And I remember both
of them very well.

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Do you have a sense for what

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your family's political
beliefs were?

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Were they supporters of
President Roosevelt?

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Oh, very much so. I think
the country as a whole was

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united and President Roosevelt

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was highly respected
at that time.

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Everything is subject
to change, I guess.

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And was religious practice
important to your family?

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Yes! My family was very Jewish.

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Although my father had the
highest Jewish education,

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he graduated from one of

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the finest religious schools
in Europe called the Yeshiva.

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But business reasons, except
for the high holidays,

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that's the only time he
would close the store.

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Except one—midwife,

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twin brother and I were
born in a house,

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not a hospital, 316 Jefferson
Street, Jacksonville Florida.

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And when the midwife called
my father at the store and 

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said, your wife just
had a boy, he said,

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I know you called me a
little earlier. Oh, no,

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this is a second boy. That
caused him to close the store,

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shut the store down,
put a sign on the door,

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and he immediately
came to the house.

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So they didn't know that
they were expecting twins?

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Not in those days. Doctors
didn't know and they didn't

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know even when our
children were first born.

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Doctors still didn't know until

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the child was born
what sex it would be.

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Do you have any memories of

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experiencing anti
semitism in Florida?

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Well, we knew anti-
semitism existed.

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The neighborhood we
lived in was just after,

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maybe we were six
or seven years old,

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we moved to a
different neighborhood

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with the rest of the
majority of Jewish families.

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And it was a mix neighborhood.

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Most of the non Jewish
homeowners and renters,

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were most people
rented in those days.

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And most of them were
Southern Baptists.

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But everybody seemed
to get along fine.

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So never experienced anything

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anti semitic in that
neighborhood that I remember.

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And there were reasons for
it, because we live

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close to the synagogue
and had there been,

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there would have
been some kind of

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activity in that neighborhood.

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But it wasn't. My twin brother
has best friend,

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his family was not Jewish.

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His father especially
was a very nice, but

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hard on his children
type father.

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And he let it know
that he would not put

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up with anything
that resembled anti-

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Semitic. He had a
dry cleaning agency,

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he had a lot of
Jewish customers, and 

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maybe that was the reason why
it was a great experience.

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One thing our mother reminded

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us that I remember very well, and 

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she told my older brother,

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and myself, and my twin brother, that

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when we were out and about,

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we would go downtown on
Saturday to a movie.

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She said you were walking,

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just remember, you do not
represent only yourself, but

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you represent all Jewish
people in the area.

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Because if you do
something wrong,

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it's going to be a reflection,

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not only on you, but all of
the Jewish neighbors as well.

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And that was something
we always so we

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were always on our
best behavior anyway,

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but that reinforced
the way we conducted ourselves.

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You mentioned
that your parents

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were both born in Lithuania.

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Did they keep in touch with
any family back in Europe?

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Did they keep in touch with
family back in Europe?

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My father had a younger sister

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living with her husband
and three young children.

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He had brought one of
his brothers over,

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also ended up in
Jacksonville. His name was Oscar Margol.

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The two of them tried to

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arrange for the
younger sister and

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her family to come to

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Jacksonville when the
war first broke out,

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when the Nazis first
invaded Poland.

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But they said no then, and they

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wrote letters back and forth. And

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they indicated in
their letters that

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Lithuania at the time was
controlled by Russia,

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so they'll say they're okay. Well, when 

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the letters stopped coming, then

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my father knew that
something bad happened.

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It was later years that
my twin brother was able

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to go there and find out
what actually did happen, when 

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they were all killed,
not by the Germans. The

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Germans hadn't arrived yet.

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But there was a group called
the Lithuanian bandits.

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Similar I guess, to
what this country,

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we had the KKK. And before

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the German army ever
moved into Lithuania,

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they rounded up all
the Jews and pushed them out of 

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Lithuania,took them out
in the nearby woods.

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Took the infants and
youngest children

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held them by the feet,

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swung them around, smashed
them up against trees,

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while the parents and the
other siblings had to watch. I mean 

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that was one of the [needs confirmation]
unknown stories,

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I guess the things that happened
by the Lithuanian bands.

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And to this day, I

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think the Lithuanian
government has gone to

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great lengths to keep
stuff like that secret.

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Because they don't
want the world to

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think Lithuanian
citizens killed

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a lot of Jews. That's how I learned.

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00:13:00,150 --> 00:13:03,189
There's definitely a lot of

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00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:08,630
politics in how this
is remembered and, yeah,

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you can see that in the way the

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countries, the
governments respond.

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So, in general,

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you mentioned your father
was writing these letters.

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Were members of your community

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just following what was
starting to happen in Europe?

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The rise of Hitler
and the Nazis

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and ? Well, I remember
very little of that.

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I knew there was things

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happening to the
Jewish communities,

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not only in Germany,

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but in the countries that
the Germans invaded.

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But specifics?

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I don't remember any specifics.

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How did you and your family
get your news at that time?

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00:14:00,799 --> 00:14:04,019
Well, there was no TV at the time

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and usually the local newspaper

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what the local newspaper

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printed was what they

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were, the publisher and the
editors were interested in,

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Plain and simple.
You could go to

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a movie and it

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00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:35,680
would show Fox Movie telling news
before the movies started.

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For the most part,
they would show,

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00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:44,820
I remember even when
I went into the army,

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we would see Fox Movie telling news,

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but mostly what they showed
were combat pictures. Once

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especially once the
US entered the war.

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Before that they
showed news that,

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I guess they thought

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00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,320
people throughout

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00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,619
the United States would
be interested in.

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00:15:09,619 --> 00:15:12,360
That's pretty much
how we got our news.

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Radio, was it,

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00:15:14,899 --> 00:15:17,559
so. Did you own a radio?

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00:15:17,559 --> 00:15:20,839
Did your family have a
radio at home? Oh, yes.

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00:15:20,839 --> 00:15:29,500
Radio, and a telephone, with a 
five line telephone.

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So, tell me a little bit about

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00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:35,579
your education in Jacksonville?

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00:15:35,579 --> 00:15:37,599
Well, my brother and I went

254
00:15:37,599 --> 00:15:42,839
to— kindergarten was
unknown at that time.

255
00:15:42,839 --> 00:15:47,080
So you started in the first grade
when it was six years old.

256
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,500
So we went through grammar school,

257
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:56,399
they called it. From one to
sixth grades was grammar school.

258
00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,879
Then you went to what they
called a junior high school,

259
00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:03,940
which was seven through nine.

260
00:16:03,940 --> 00:16:06,620
There you went to high school,

261
00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:10,339
which is tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades. And 

262
00:16:10,339 --> 00:16:13,519
we went through all of that.

263
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:21,759
And actually, if you're interested
in education beyond that.

264
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,980
Pearl Harbor was
December 7, 1941.

265
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:29,420
We were mid terms,

266
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:32,840
so we graduated high school

267
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:39,360
in about the middle
of January of 1942.

268
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,539
We were home a week or

269
00:16:41,539 --> 00:16:46,640
ten days and we both
entered as freshman at 

270
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,520
the University of Florida.
 At that time,

271
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,920
University of Florida
was all male school.

272
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:04,370
The total student body was
3,000 students, all male.

273
00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:07,899
They had a ROTC program.

274
00:17:07,899 --> 00:17:11,739
So we joined the ROTC program,

275
00:17:11,739 --> 00:17:16,059
which was horse drawn,
light artillery.

276
00:17:16,059 --> 00:17:21,799
105 millimeter
howitzers, our uniforms,

277
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:25,560
riding pants. Job purses [needs confirmation]

278
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,380
what they called them,
because we had to ride

279
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:31,959
on the horses and
pull the howitzers.

280
00:17:31,959 --> 00:17:34,019
We were both being trained as

281
00:17:34,019 --> 00:17:37,980
gunners 105
millimeter howitzers.

282
00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:39,620
The howitzers were real,

283
00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:41,540
the horses were real,

284
00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:45,059
our rifles were made out of wood.

285
00:17:45,059 --> 00:17:49,160
So much ready for combat.

286
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:55,540
But that was late
January of 1942.

287
00:17:55,580 --> 00:17:59,580
October, I think the 23rd,

288
00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:02,959
the Army officer came spoke to

289
00:18:02,959 --> 00:18:06,260
the RPTC
students and said,

290
00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:09,580
if you join an
Army Reserve unit,

291
00:18:09,580 --> 00:18:12,259
there's a good chance
the Army will let you

292
00:18:12,259 --> 00:18:15,699
remain in college until
you get your degree.

293
00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:20,840
So we joined an
Army Reserve unit.

294
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,339
That was late October of 42.

295
00:18:24,339 --> 00:18:28,819
In early 43 they
called our reserve unit

296
00:18:28,819 --> 00:18:33,059
to active duty. That's how we ended
up. But they did

297
00:18:33,059 --> 00:18:36,739
let us finish the
semester. Okay.

298
00:18:36,739 --> 00:18:40,159
So we'll get into that moment.

299
00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:42,240
I want to go back
just a tiny bit

300
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,999
and ask just about Pearl Harbor.

301
00:18:44,999 --> 00:18:49,259
Do you remember hearing about
the attack on Pearl Harbor?

302
00:18:49,259 --> 00:18:50,779
Yes, I remember it was

303
00:18:50,779 --> 00:18:56,699
a Sunday. Everybody
was listening,

304
00:18:56,699 --> 00:18:59,279
was told to listen to the radio.

305
00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:02,459
President Roosevelt
was going to speak.

306
00:19:02,459 --> 00:19:06,319
So of course, our family
was huddled around

307
00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:10,979
the radio listening to
President Roosevelt.

308
00:19:10,979 --> 00:19:14,919
 Our older brother,

309
00:19:14,919 --> 00:19:17,260
I said he's three years older.

310
00:19:17,260 --> 00:19:20,920
He immediately tried
to join the Army, but

311
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,759
he was classified
4F because he

312
00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:28,079
had surgery on both ears

313
00:19:28,079 --> 00:19:33,480
as a youngster. His
hearing was impaired,

314
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,679
so they classified him 4F

315
00:19:35,679 --> 00:19:40,920
So the military
would not accept him,

316
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,580
and I remember all
that very well.

317
00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:52,099
And of course, the
country as a whole,

318
00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:56,459
everybody was doing something,

319
00:19:56,459 --> 00:19:58,739
either joining the military

320
00:19:58,739 --> 00:20:02,759
or working in some
factory that converted to

321
00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:10,300
making war material and serving,

322
00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:16,239
helping soldiers,
USO, Red Cross,

323
00:20:16,239 --> 00:20:21,299
whatever. I remember
all of that.

324
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:27,339
So then moving forward to
when you were called to duty,

325
00:20:27,339 --> 00:20:31,820
what kind of work were you
assigned to do in the army?

326
00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:38,659
Well, initially when we
were called to active duty,

327
00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:42,579
we didn't know what to expect.

328
00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:46,980
At the age we were at the time,

329
00:20:47,780 --> 00:20:52,060
18, 19 19 years old,

330
00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:56,019
it was like going on
a great adventure.

331
00:20:56,019 --> 00:21:00,099
So we were somewhat excited,
looking forward to it.

332
00:21:00,099 --> 00:21:02,939
We had no idea what to expect.

333
00:21:02,939 --> 00:21:07,459
I had no idea what real
army life would be like.

334
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:14,840
Did you experience any anti
semitism in the military?

335
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:21,719
Never, until after the
war, on one occasion.

336
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:27,360
And that was a whole separate
story after the war.

337
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:36,279
First of all, we went to
Fort Brag, North Carolina for

338
00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:42,739
basic training. Again training 

339
00:21:42,739 --> 00:21:44,420
being trained as gunners on 1

340
00:21:44,420 --> 00:21:46,579
05 millimeter howitzers.

341
00:21:46,579 --> 00:21:50,200
But these were
mechanized, no horses.

342
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,759
After 13 weeks we
were interviewed,

343
00:21:57,759 --> 00:21:59,819
offered the opportunity to go

344
00:21:59,819 --> 00:22:02,999
to Officers Candidate school.

345
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,480
I said what would that involve? They said

346
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,100
well you go to officer training,three months

347
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:13,999
and you both come out as 
second lieutenants.

348
00:22:13,999 --> 00:22:18,040
They called them 90 day
wonders in those days.

349
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,320
So we looked at each
other and said,

350
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,979
well, if we do that,

351
00:22:24,979 --> 00:22:27,160
they're going to split us up.

352
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,199
They're going to set us to
two different Army divisions,

353
00:22:31,199 --> 00:22:33,959
and aren't [needs confirmation] going to
let us stay together.

354
00:22:33,959 --> 00:22:38,219
So what else is a way?

355
00:22:38,219 --> 00:22:40,639
They said, well, the
Army just started

356
00:22:40,639 --> 00:22:44,599
a new program called Army
Specialized Training Program,

357
00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:48,259
ASTP. And if you prefer

358
00:22:48,259 --> 00:22:50,319
that we'll send you

359
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:54,519
to some college to take
courses in engineering.

360
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,639
So I said, well, going back to

361
00:22:57,639 --> 00:23:00,279
some college, that
sounds like us. So

362
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,720
that's what we ended

363
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,339
up eventually going to
Syracuse University.

364
00:23:07,339 --> 00:23:09,859
We were there about four months

365
00:23:09,859 --> 00:23:12,620
taking engineering courses.

366
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:14,800
Since we had graduated,

367
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080
we had taking business courses,

368
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,200
accounting courses at
University of Florida.

369
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,619
Engineering courses
was all Greek to us,

370
00:23:24,619 --> 00:23:28,600
but we did the best we could.

371
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,180
After about four months,

372
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:32,960
they transferred us
to the University

373
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,660
of Illinois,
Champaign, Illinois.

374
00:23:35,660 --> 00:23:38,560
And after about four months there,

375
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,739
some general woke
up and said they

376
00:23:41,739 --> 00:23:45,479
got thousands of young
soldiers in colleges.

377
00:23:45,479 --> 00:23:47,620
They need them for combat.

378
00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:49,899
So they disbanded the program.

379
00:23:49,899 --> 00:23:53,200
And that's when the army split us up.

380
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,099
So where did you end up going

381
00:24:00,099 --> 00:24:04,379
after the program was disbanded
and they split you up?

382
00:24:04,379 --> 00:24:08,019
Well, they sent my
brother Howard to

383
00:24:08,019 --> 00:24:12,620
the 104th
Timberwolf Division and training

384
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:14,359
in the Mojave Desert in

385
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,479
California for the
North African campaign.

386
00:24:18,479 --> 00:24:23,139
They sent me to the 42nd
Infantry Division in Oklahoma,

387
00:24:23,139 --> 00:24:28,380
Camp Gruber,
Oklahoma. Initially

388
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:35,179
so he was in Infantry Company
Mojave Desert in California.

389
00:24:35,179 --> 00:24:38,219
Initially, they put me in
the Infantry Company in

390
00:24:38,219 --> 00:24:41,640
the 42nd Division. In my case.

391
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,559
after about three months,

392
00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:46,659
they woke up and
realized on my training,

393
00:24:46,659 --> 00:24:48,600
I belonged in the artillery,

394
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,720
so they moved me over
to light artillery.

395
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,279
Once again, as a gun
on a 105 millimeter howitzer.

396
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,679
Howard was not happy

397
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,040
because then they decided they
didn't need any more help

398
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,760
in the North African campaign.

399
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:15,060
They moved his division to
Colorado, Pike's Peak area.

400
00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:19,740
He was marching up and down
the mountainside carrying

401
00:25:19,740 --> 00:25:24,079
a 45 pound motor base plate on

402
00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,560
his back and leading the pack

403
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,940
mule [needs confirmation] with the rest of the
motor and the ammunition.

404
00:25:30,940 --> 00:25:33,920
He put in a request to transfer

405
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,500
three different times
to his captain.

406
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:44,299
And so happened. After the
third time, nothing happened.

407
00:25:44,299 --> 00:25:46,600
He asked his captain what's

408
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,580
the status of his
transfer request.

409
00:25:49,580 --> 00:25:52,700
The captain told him
his job was to train

410
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:56,480
him, not transfer him.

411
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,739
The officers of the division
knew at the time that within

412
00:26:00,739 --> 00:26:05,020
a few months they were
going to be the first US.

413
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:12,299
Division to go directly
from New York to France,

414
00:26:12,299 --> 00:26:15,219
shortly after D-Day,

415
00:26:15,219 --> 00:26:18,359
soon after D-Day because
prior to that,

416
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,119
divisions had to go to England.

417
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,819
So he didn't want to lose

418
00:26:23,819 --> 00:26:26,319
a well trained soldier
like my brother

419
00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:28,939
Howard to be replaced by

420
00:26:28,939 --> 00:26:30,499
some kid fresh out of

421
00:26:30,499 --> 00:26:33,839
basic training. that didn't
have all that training.

422
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,439
Howard wrote a letter to

423
00:26:36,439 --> 00:26:41,419
our mother saying
that what happened.

424
00:26:41,419 --> 00:26:45,239
So she wrote a letter to

425
00:26:45,239 --> 00:26:48,860
President Roosevelt
saying that she

426
00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:53,320
would like us to be serving
back together again,

427
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,779
when the two of us
wanted to serve

428
00:26:55,779 --> 00:26:58,639
together for the simple reason,

429
00:26:58,639 --> 00:27:02,479
I'm thrown in together
with a bunch of strangers.

430
00:27:02,479 --> 00:27:07,240
My gun battery
consisted of 100 men.

431
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,140
You don't know anybody.

432
00:27:09,140 --> 00:27:12,359
It takes a while to live
together before you do.

433
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,699
So if you have at least one
person that you can trust,

434
00:27:16,699 --> 00:27:19,320
regardless of where you're at,

435
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,740
what's going on, it
makes a big difference.

436
00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:27,040
So sure enough, a
couple of weeks later,

437
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,340
she got a letter from
the White House.

438
00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:32,439
Not signed by
President Roosevelt,

439
00:27:32,439 --> 00:27:34,519
but signed by a gentleman 

440
00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:37,020
who was the President's aid.

441
00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:41,160
The letter said, as
a two star mother,

442
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,639
her request would be

443
00:27:42,639 --> 00:27:46,820
granted. Because at the
time that was against

444
00:27:46,820 --> 00:27:51,740
military policy for brothers

445
00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:55,780
to serve together,
especially in combat,

446
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:59,040
because previously the
five Sullivan brothers had

447
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,699
gone down on the same
ship in the Pacific.

448
00:28:02,699 --> 00:28:06,560
But President Roosevelt
made an exception.

449
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,899
But it didn't say whether

450
00:28:08,899 --> 00:28:11,739
I'm going to him or
he's coming to me.

451
00:28:11,739 --> 00:28:14,059
It just said her request would be

452
00:28:14,059 --> 00:28:17,359
granted. Another
couple of weeks later,

453
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,220
she got a letter from
the War Department,

454
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:21,560
basically saying the same thing.

455
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,120
Finally, two or
three weeks later,

456
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,080
she got a third letter from

457
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,639
the 104th
Division headquarters saying

458
00:28:30,639 --> 00:28:32,519
Howard was being transferred to

459
00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:37,519
my outfit and that was
caused for celebration.

460
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:43,000
So what happened then
after you were reunited?

461
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,239
Well before we were reunited,

462
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,500
the Red Cross
contacted my gun battalion 

463
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:56,580
my division and said

464
00:28:56,580 --> 00:29:00,960
our mother was very seriously
ill in the hospital.

465
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,980
She had been bitten by

466
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:05,660
a rat and she

467
00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:08,299
they didn't know if she was
going to make it or not.

468
00:29:08,299 --> 00:29:11,879
So they granted me a
ten day furlough to go

469
00:29:11,879 --> 00:29:16,440
home to be with my
mother in the hospital.

470
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,519
They couldn't locate
Howard because he was on

471
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:23,480
a train from Colorado
to Oklahoma.

472
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,639
They had to change trains
in Kansas City,

473
00:29:26,639 --> 00:29:29,120
so they couldn't locate him.

474
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480
So, when he reported
to my outfit,

475
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,665
presented his transfer papers,

476
00:29:35,665 --> 00:29:40,029
our Army serial numbers
were almost identical.

477
00:29:40,029 --> 00:29:45,449
They thought it was a
typo error and it was me

478
00:29:45,449 --> 00:29:52,090
coming back maybe four
days or so after I left.

479
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:55,509
And they thought he was
me coming back and acting

480
00:29:55,509 --> 00:29:59,829
crazy saying that he
was my twin brother.

481
00:29:59,829 --> 00:30:02,949
Because if you  act crazy,

482
00:30:02,949 --> 00:30:06,249
you could qualify for a
Section 8 discharge,

483
00:30:06,249 --> 00:30:09,010
which means you could
get out of the Army.

484
00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:11,249
So they, he said they gave him

485
00:30:11,249 --> 00:30:13,909
every dirty detail they
could come up with,

486
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:18,449
thinking that it was
really me playing games.

487
00:30:18,449 --> 00:30:21,370
Of course, when I reported
back then they realized

488
00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:24,369
there was two of us,
especially, you know,

489
00:30:24,369 --> 00:30:26,470
we were identical twins,

490
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:31,170
both wearing the same Army outfits.

491
00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:33,910
So that was what happened.

492
00:30:33,910 --> 00:30:37,370
But we ended up both as gunners.

493
00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:40,250
We had four howitzers 
in our gun battalion.

494
00:30:40,250 --> 00:30:45,810
He was gunner on number two and
I was a gunner on number three.

495
00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:49,429
And that's how we
remained through combat.

496
00:30:49,429 --> 00:30:56,230
And so you shipped out
to Europe in 1944?

497
00:30:56,230 --> 00:31:00,899
Well, I we were

498
00:31:00,899 --> 00:31:03,780
very fortunate for a
number of reasons.

499
00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:09,760
Well when the Battle of the
Bulge broke out in Belgium,

500
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,100
our infantry companies,

501
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,719
three infantry companies
were immediately rushed

502
00:31:15,719 --> 00:31:21,359
over as fast as they could
to get them involved.

503
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:23,959
They left the entire rest of

504
00:31:23,959 --> 00:31:28,780
the division . The division 
consisted of 15,000 men.

505
00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:34,299
The rest of us were all still
in Camp Gruber, Oklahoma,

506
00:31:34,299 --> 00:31:39,680
until some big wheels
from Washington could

507
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,319
come and verify that the

508
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:44,960
rest of the division
was ready for combat,

509
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,659
which was somewhat of a
joke. Just a wast of time.

510
00:31:49,659 --> 00:31:51,520
So we got to orders,

511
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:52,879
finally to board troop

512
00:31:52,879 --> 00:31:57,199
train. So our infantry
comp[needs confirmation] regiments,

513
00:31:57,199 --> 00:31:59,319
three of them got in

514
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:03,720
the last couple of days
of the Battle of the Bulge.

515
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,639
What happened afterwards

516
00:32:06,639 --> 00:32:13,180
before we arrived, they were
attacked by the German army.

517
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:18,059
And supposedly in a quiet area.

518
00:32:18,059 --> 00:32:20,619
They had heavy ca, lot of

519
00:32:20,619 --> 00:32:24,460
casualties. Wounded,
killed, and captured.

520
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:26,919
So there again, we we got there

521
00:32:26,919 --> 00:32:30,040
we left New York Harbor.

522
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,079
I guess it was day
after New Year's.

523
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:38,859
 A15 day voyage in

524
00:32:38,859 --> 00:32:42,200
a large convoy because
they couldn't go straight,

525
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,959
they had to zigzag.

526
00:32:43,959 --> 00:32:46,500
So that's why it took 15 days

527
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,759
for us to land in
Marseilles France.

528
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,700
Well, again, I said
we were somewhat

529
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:56,000
fortunate because by the time

530
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,719
the rest of the
division arrived,

531
00:32:58,740 --> 00:33:02,979
we had them been transported us to

532
00:33:02,979 --> 00:33:07,079
an area north of
Marseilles called CP

533
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:08,339
2, Command Post 

534
00:33:08,339 --> 00:33:12,899
Two. Extremely cold.
The coldest weather

535
00:33:12,899 --> 00:33:15,820
in Southern Frances
in 100 years.

536
00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:20,539
Extremely cold, rocky
barren misery. But

537
00:33:20,539 --> 00:33:22,639
we had to wait there until

538
00:33:22,639 --> 00:33:26,200
the empagy[ needs confirmation] companies
could get replacements.

539
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,660
So we they got, received replacements,

540
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:32,699
we had to go like on maneuvers
like we were in Oklahoma,

541
00:33:32,699 --> 00:33:36,319
in training to train the
embigesew [needs confirmation] new replacements,

542
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:39,699
especially some officers
that had to deal with

543
00:33:39,699 --> 00:33:44,280
the artillery following
reserves and so forth [needs confirmation].

544
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,920
So there again, that delayed
us from going into combat.

545
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,259
But finally, either the
end of February or

546
00:33:54,259 --> 00:33:57,380
the first of early end of January

547
00:33:57,380 --> 00:34:01,240
or early February we
went into combat.

548
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,480
Actually we went

549
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,739
into a position close
to midnight one night,

550
00:34:09,739 --> 00:34:13,040
so we thought we were
still on the lose.

551
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,499
The only difference
was they told us to dig in

552
00:34:16,499 --> 00:34:21,020
our houses and put
up camouflage nets.

553
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:25,759
We'll that was new. But then at
break of dawn the

554
00:34:25,759 --> 00:34:31,060
next morning and shells start
flying over our heads.

555
00:34:31,420 --> 00:34:34,479
Oh this must be a real thing.

556
00:34:34,479 --> 00:34:40,659
And then we learned the
first day or two, that

557
00:34:40,659 --> 00:34:44,880
we were in a village called
Wingen sur Moder, France.

558
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,539
Village of Wing on
the Samota river[needs confirmation].

559
00:34:48,539 --> 00:34:51,279
We were on one side of

560
00:34:51,279 --> 00:34:55,039
the river, the
other side of the river.

561
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:57,819
well, the river itself,
they called a river,

562
00:34:57,819 --> 00:35:00,260
to us, it was like a creek.

563
00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:03,980
On the other side was what
they called a mountain,

564
00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:06,014
we called it a very high hill.

565
00:35:06,014 --> 00:35:07,969
The Germans were dug in on

566
00:35:07,969 --> 00:35:10,549
the other side of the high hill.

567
00:35:10,549 --> 00:35:15,069
It took better part of two days.

568
00:35:15,069 --> 00:35:17,429
You could learn by
the difference in

569
00:35:17,429 --> 00:35:22,529
the sounds which shell's
flying overhead,

570
00:35:22,529 --> 00:35:26,569
The Germans had fired
targets behind us,

571
00:35:26,569 --> 00:35:32,729
and which the 155 millimeter
howitzers behind us,

572
00:35:32,729 --> 00:35:36,590
and the heavier 240
millimeter howitzers,

573
00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:39,010
the shells they were firing

574
00:35:39,010 --> 00:35:43,350
over the high hills to
the German targets.

575
00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:45,169
By the difference in the sound,

576
00:35:45,169 --> 00:35:48,990
you could tell what was incoming
and what was outgoing.

577
00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:53,449
We used to say after
a little experience,

578
00:35:53,449 --> 00:35:55,590
we weren't concerned about

579
00:35:55,590 --> 00:35:58,849
those warts[needs confirmation]that
had your name on them.

580
00:35:58,849 --> 00:36:02,109
We were concerned
about those big ones

581
00:36:02,109 --> 00:36:08,089
that said, to whom
it may concern you. So,

582
00:36:08,450 --> 00:36:13,249
you were there in in

583
00:36:13,249 --> 00:36:18,149
the Ardenned Mountains after
that, is that right?

584
00:36:18,149 --> 00:36:23,289
Well, we moved after
maybe four or five days,

585
00:36:23,289 --> 00:36:26,590
we moved north into France,

586
00:36:26,590 --> 00:36:29,010
different towns
different villages.

587
00:36:29,010 --> 00:36:33,189
And the way it worked, since
we were in direct support of

588
00:36:33,189 --> 00:36:39,850
the 222nd Infantry
Regiment, 222nd Company,

589
00:36:40,010 --> 00:36:42,849
we never set up our houses

590
00:36:42,849 --> 00:36:45,330
inside any city,
town, or village.

591
00:36:45,330 --> 00:36:48,150
We were always on the
outskirts because

592
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:52,890
the infantry guys were
trying to capture thode towns,

593
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:56,109
cities, villages.
We were on the outskirts,

594
00:36:56,109 --> 00:37:01,050
firing at targets that
were impeding, their advances.

595
00:37:01,650 --> 00:37:04,469
So it depended on the situation.

596
00:37:04,469 --> 00:37:08,410
Sometimes our four houses
were quite a distance apart.

597
00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:11,470
Other occasions they
were fairly close

598
00:37:11,470 --> 00:37:16,759
together. Just depended on
the terrain for the most part.

599
00:37:16,759 --> 00:37:19,939
So once that city, town,

600
00:37:19,939 --> 00:37:22,060
and village was under control,

601
00:37:22,060 --> 00:37:25,400
the Germans had retreated,

602
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,560
then we would ride
on a truck through

603
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:35,339
those same towns and
villages and saw damages.

604
00:37:35,339 --> 00:37:40,100
Some had to be from
our firing shells,

605
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:43,340
some was from aerial
bombardment, whatever.

606
00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:45,719
And that pretty
much was repetitive

607
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,159
over and over until we got into

608
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:50,099
a more mountains area in

609
00:37:50,099 --> 00:37:55,260
the heart Mountains
and snow days, whatnot.

610
00:37:56,060 --> 00:38:00,879
The way we operated,

611
00:38:00,879 --> 00:38:04,099
we each had a sleeping bag.

612
00:38:04,099 --> 00:38:06,639
We could never be

613
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:12,399
more than a few feet or
yards from our houses.

614
00:38:12,399 --> 00:38:18,480
24x7! Whether it was
snowing, sleet, cold rain,

615
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,039
whatever. Because we could get

616
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:27,820
fire emissions at any time
during the 24 hour period.

617
00:38:27,820 --> 00:38:33,579
So that was pretty much
the way we operated.

618
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:36,539
So

619
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:42,759
we're into winter 1945.

620
00:38:42,759 --> 00:38:46,659
And you're —when do you

621
00:38:46,659 --> 00:38:49,520
find out that you're going
to be going to Germany?

622
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:56,799
Well, we crossed over the
river into Germany. And

623
00:38:56,799 --> 00:38:59,039
the first town of

624
00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:04,860
any consequence was
called Dahn, D A H N Germany.

625
00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:12,739
And that was towards
late March 1945.

626
00:39:12,860 --> 00:39:19,339
I had an interesting experience
there that I made.

627
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,839
Once Dahn was under

628
00:39:22,839 --> 00:39:27,079
control and the German
soldiers had retreated,

629
00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:30,260
our division 42nd Infantry Division

630
00:39:30,260 --> 00:39:33,240
was given a two day rest period.

631
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,459
One of our division
chaplains was

632
00:39:38,459 --> 00:39:42,399
named Rabbi Eli Bowman[needs confirmation]Province, Rhode Island 

633
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,479
He happened to be a favorite of

634
00:39:46,479 --> 00:39:50,280
our commanding General
Harry J. Collins,

635
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:57,619
Major general. Rabbi Bowman 
and my brother and I,

636
00:39:57,619 --> 00:40:03,255
became very close with
him for a number of reasons.

637
00:40:03,255 --> 00:40:05,649
He had told us that when he was

638
00:40:05,649 --> 00:40:09,130
introduced originally
to General Collins,

639
00:40:09,130 --> 00:40:11,849
Collins told him first of all,

640
00:40:11,849 --> 00:40:14,229
he was not going to address him

641
00:40:14,229 --> 00:40:18,889
as chaplain or lieutenant.

642
00:40:18,889 --> 00:40:24,930
He was going to call him
padre, which in Spanish, is father.

643
00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:29,989
And he also told him that
if he ever witnesses

644
00:40:29,989 --> 00:40:35,270
or hears about any
anti semitic event,

645
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:39,289
General Collins wanted to
know about it immediately,

646
00:40:39,289 --> 00:40:42,410
and he would take
appropriate action.

647
00:40:42,410 --> 00:40:46,029
Such a kind of person
General Collins was.

648
00:40:46,029 --> 00:40:49,369
We knew that because Rabbi Bowman was the one

649
00:40:49,369 --> 00:40:52,289
that told us this.

650
00:40:52,289 --> 00:40:55,110
Now Rabbi Bowman looked at
his Jewish calendar

651
00:40:55,110 --> 00:40:57,750
and he said the next evening,

652
00:40:57,750 --> 00:41:01,409
which I think was either
March 24 or 25th,

653
00:41:01,409 --> 00:41:04,470
was going to be the
first night of Passover.

654
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:06,630
If at all possible,

655
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:10,210
he would like to have some
kind of Passover service.

656
00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:16,150
General Collins, liked the
idea. He gave permission,

657
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:23,700
Chaplain Bowman to go back
two trucks to France

658
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:27,999
and acquire whatever
he could. So he was able

659
00:41:27,999 --> 00:41:32,820
to contact the Jewish
War Board in France.

660
00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:36,560
They arranged for
freshly killed chickens,

661
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,179
vegetables, wine, French wine.

662
00:41:40,179 --> 00:41:45,680
He also acquired a small prayer book

663
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,520
which called Haggadah, a passage, a


664
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,060
Seder brought it all back to down Germany.

665
00:41:55,060 --> 00:41:57,440
And sure enough, we had a Seder

666
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,340
the next evening in an
old school building.

667
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:10,640
Well, Chaplain Bowman had this  little Haggadah, a number of pages,

668
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,940
it's a prayer book all in Hebrew.

669
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:19,180
He found a, he found a mimeograph machine.

670
00:42:19,180 --> 00:42:22,120
It was dusty and dirty.

671
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,839
They went looking for
rags to clean it.

672
00:42:25,839 --> 00:42:30,780
All they could find
was a Nazi flag.

673
00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:35,000
That's what they used to clean
that mimeograph graph machine.

674
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,320
They made about 800 copies

675
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,899
because we had about
800 soldiers show up.

676
00:42:42,899 --> 00:42:45,020
Not only from our division,

677
00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:50,140
from other units within
a 30, 40 mile radius.

678
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:54,619
General Collins was
there in attendance,

679
00:42:54,619 --> 00:42:57,020
made a very nice speech.

680
00:42:57,020 --> 00:43:00,339
Our Assistant
Division Commander,

681
00:43:00,339 --> 00:43:03,299
General Henning
Linden was there.

682
00:43:03,299 --> 00:43:05,959
And it turned out to be,

683
00:43:05,959 --> 00:43:08,280
as far as we were concerned,

684
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:15,080
a historic event that to be
held in Germany as a seder,

685
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,920
and I remember it very
well. That's amazing.

686
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,500
As a Jewish soldier,

687
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:27,420
had you had trepidation
about going into Germany?

688
00:43:27,420 --> 00:43:31,120
Well this thought's on

689
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,559
probably every
soldier's mind was,

690
00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:36,979
number one, do
your job with best of

691
00:43:36,979 --> 00:43:41,540
your ability and
try and stay alive.

692
00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:45,540
That's that's what they are thinking.

693
00:43:45,980 --> 00:43:49,439
Do you remember hearing about

694
00:43:49,439 --> 00:43:53,400
the death of President
Roosevelt in April?

695
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,519
I remember it very well

696
00:43:55,519 --> 00:44:01,279
because each gun had
a field telephone.

697
00:44:01,279 --> 00:44:04,059
That's how we communicated with

698
00:44:04,059 --> 00:44:07,520
our second lieutenant
in the command post for 

699
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,424
filing commands

700
00:44:09,424 --> 00:44:11,769
and any other messages.

701
00:44:11,769 --> 00:44:17,529
So one night, maybe
09:00 at night,

702
00:44:17,529 --> 00:44:23,870
the telephone rang. Our sergeant
answered the phone.

703
00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:27,529
We were hoping that that

704
00:44:27,529 --> 00:44:31,269
meant the news was
the war is over.

705
00:44:31,269 --> 00:44:34,449
So we were waiting
Then they tell us,

706
00:44:34,449 --> 00:44:36,710
what was that call about?

707
00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:40,109
And he hung up and they told us

708
00:44:40,109 --> 00:44:45,750
President Roosevelt had died
and that's what I remember.

709
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:48,250
What about the death of Hitler?

710
00:44:48,250 --> 00:44:50,049
There was only a few—.

711
00:44:50,049 --> 00:44:54,630
Well, you know, everybody
was deflated, so to speak,

712
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:56,490
to learn that President, because 

713
00:44:56,490 --> 00:44:58,989
we didn't know he was sick. We had no idea.

714
00:45:02,670 --> 00:45:06,689
So people were upset
about Roosevelt's death?

715
00:45:06,689 --> 00:45:08,470
Yes. What about Hitler?

716
00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:10,670
Did you hear about
the death of Hitler?

717
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:11,469
About what?

718
00:45:11,469 --> 00:45:13,710
The death of Adolf Hitler.

719
00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:16,389
When Adolf Hitler died,

720
00:45:16,389 --> 00:45:18,569
that was only a few weeks later.

721
00:45:18,569 --> 00:45:20,669
Do you remember
hearing about that?

722
00:45:20,669 --> 00:45:22,590
I'm sorry?

723
00:45:22,590 --> 00:45:27,530
Hearing about the death of
Adolph Hitler in Germany?

724
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:29,189
No, we didn't hear about that.

725
00:45:29,189 --> 00:45:32,789
That wasn't  immediate news at the time.


726
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:38,069
So then tell me about how you came to

727
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:41,390
be present at the
liberation of Dachau?

728
00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:46,650
Okay. You know, we had caps at

729
00:45:46,650 --> 00:45:52,969
the division and captured
Wurzburg, Schweinfurt, Nuremberg,

730
00:45:52,969 --> 00:45:54,789
and after Nuremberg,

731
00:45:54,789 --> 00:45:58,230
the next military
objective was Munich.

732
00:45:58,230 --> 00:46:00,250
So, it was very early

733
00:46:00,250 --> 00:46:06,329
one Sunday morning. We were
riding on a two lane road,

734
00:46:06,329 --> 00:46:10,190
country road like towards Munich.

735
00:46:10,430 --> 00:46:15,830
Then we were 8 or 10
miles north of Munich. Then

736
00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:19,929
we knew where we were
at only because we saw

737
00:46:19,929 --> 00:46:26,229
the road sign. Number
one at the top

738
00:46:26,229 --> 00:46:29,570
it said Dachau. Below that
were different,

739
00:46:29,570 --> 00:46:32,970
like one pointing to Munich,

740
00:46:32,970 --> 00:46:36,450
how many kilometers
it was to Munich. So

741
00:46:36,450 --> 00:46:39,549
that's how we knew
where we were at.

742
00:46:39,549 --> 00:46:41,849
Shortly thereafter, we got

743
00:46:41,849 --> 00:46:45,429
orders to pull over
to the right side of

744
00:46:45,429 --> 00:46:48,970
the road. Wooded area

745
00:46:48,970 --> 00:46:53,709
just enough of a clearing to
accommodate our four howitzers.

746
00:46:53,709 --> 00:46:59,750
The closest our four howitzers 
had ever been in combat.

747
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,880
Well, everybody smelled
a very strong odor.

748
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,979
One of our jeep drivers
came over and he said,

749
00:47:08,979 --> 00:47:12,639
there must be a chemical
factory in the woods on

750
00:47:12,639 --> 00:47:17,180
the left side of
the road, very strong odor.

751
00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:22,359
My brother Howard, being
very close, came over to me, 

752
00:47:22,359 --> 00:47:26,160
and he says he don't think
it's a chemical factory;

753
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,280
the odor reminds him over
when we were young children. our

754
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,380
mother would go to
a kosher meat market

755
00:47:33,380 --> 00:47:35,960
to buy a freshly killed chicken,

756
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,699
take it home, hold it
over the gas flame of

757
00:47:40,699 --> 00:47:42,819
the stove in the kitchen to

758
00:47:42,819 --> 00:47:45,780
burn off any remaining
pin feathers.

759
00:47:45,780 --> 00:47:48,719
And so doing it
would burn some of

760
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,840
the skin and the
fat of the chicken.

761
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,259
He said that's the odor
that reminds him of.

762
00:47:55,259 --> 00:47:58,399
So I asked my gun sergeant
for permission for

763
00:47:58,399 --> 00:48:02,040
Howard and I to go
through the woods,

764
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,680
find out the source of
this very strong odor.

765
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,880
He said, go ahead

766
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,459
but don't stay long
because we don't know,

767
00:48:11,459 --> 00:48:14,439
we had a law[needs confirmation] on
fire emissions. He said,

768
00:48:14,439 --> 00:48:16,799
we don't know how long
we're going to be here

769
00:48:16,799 --> 00:48:20,299
in order to pull out the .

770
00:48:20,299 --> 00:48:24,240
[undecipherable] I went, only took us
about 15 minutes

771
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:27,260
the woods and there
was a clearing,

772
00:48:27,260 --> 00:48:31,540
the first thing we saw was a
line of railroad box cars.

773
00:48:31,540 --> 00:48:35,059
We crawled over
between two 

774
00:48:35,059 --> 00:48:38,560
box cars. We got on the other side.

775
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,479
Right on our right,

776
00:48:40,479 --> 00:48:47,239
was an open box car with the
leg of a person hanging out.

777
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,359
We looked and there were

778
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:52,859
other box cars that
the doors were open,

779
00:48:52,859 --> 00:48:57,919
but this was the only one
that had a leg hanging out,

780
00:48:57,919 --> 00:49:00,159
so that was distinction of

781
00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:05,109
one particular boxcar. We had
a couple of weeks earlier,

782
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:08,550
we had delivering a
little brownie box camera [needs confirmation].

783
00:49:08,550 --> 00:49:13,230
The only film was the film
that was inside the camera.

784
00:49:13,230 --> 00:49:17,190
So we were very careful
taking any pictures. But

785
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:21,130
we took a picture of
that particular box car

786
00:49:21,130 --> 00:49:22,989
because it was different than

787
00:49:22,989 --> 00:49:25,030
the others that we could see.

788
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:29,470
Then we noticed another
42nd Division soldiers

789
00:49:29,470 --> 00:49:31,789
going through a gate,

790
00:49:31,789 --> 00:49:35,149
there was a building there
and there was a gate.

791
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:40,589
We followed them through
the gate. Of course,

792
00:49:40,589 --> 00:49:45,910
the gate said famous
German words that

793
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:50,050
meant work makes you free,

794
00:49:50,050 --> 00:49:54,170
Arbeit  macht frei. So we followed 

795
00:49:54,170 --> 00:49:57,409
them. We walked in.

796
00:49:57,409 --> 00:50:00,950
First of all, there was
a very large open area.

797
00:50:00,950 --> 00:50:04,469
Then we saw buildings
on the right

798
00:50:04,469 --> 00:50:09,569
and on the road, and there was a lot

799
00:50:09,569 --> 00:50:12,730
of buildings that sort of
looked like barracks to me.

800
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:19,970
Similar to work buildings
in camps in the U.S.

801
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:22,690
Different but similar.

802
00:50:22,690 --> 00:50:25,050
Everything was quiet.

803
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:26,889
Soldiers were just walking around,

804
00:50:26,889 --> 00:50:29,370
we saw different areas,

805
00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:31,709
we saw a stack of dead
bodies and we,

806
00:50:31,709 --> 00:50:35,149
like cordon one[needs confirmation] area,

807
00:50:35,149 --> 00:50:38,529
another area. That made

808
00:50:38,529 --> 00:50:42,189
us realize that's where
the odor was coming from,

809
00:50:42,189 --> 00:50:44,109
because these were not only

810
00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:47,230
the dead bodies in the
box railroad boxcars,

811
00:50:47,230 --> 00:50:49,869
but there were bodies lying in

812
00:50:49,869 --> 00:50:55,689
different areas. This what we were
witnessing. Now

813
00:50:55,689 --> 00:50:57,509
we didn't realize at

814
00:50:57,509 --> 00:51:01,050
the moment. We didn't understand
what we were seeing.

815
00:51:01,050 --> 00:51:06,189
What caused all of this. We
had no idea.We didn't know.

816
00:51:06,189 --> 00:51:09,950
So we knew we had to get
back to our gun position.

817
00:51:09,950 --> 00:51:14,470
So maybe we were inside
the camp maybe 20 ,

818
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:18,869
25 minutes total. And we
turned around and left.

819
00:51:18,869 --> 00:51:24,190
Of course, what we
learned after the fact,

820
00:51:24,190 --> 00:51:27,989
that must have been the
Dachau prisoner camp.

821
00:51:27,989 --> 00:51:31,329
Because we saw the
sign Dachau which was Dachau,

822
00:51:31,329 --> 00:51:33,430
 for the town.

823
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:40,909
 The city of Dachau ,not camp or
camps, whatever was there,

824
00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:45,990
and that was pretty
much our experience.

825
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:49,820
There was no firing, no combat, but

826
00:51:49,820 --> 00:51:51,849
we learned what happened when 

827
00:51:51,849 --> 00:51:54,710
our first infantry guys arrived,

828
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:59,090
it was how, it happened after
the war and we learned

829
00:51:59,090 --> 00:52:01,949
because our division
every year used to have

830
00:52:01,949 --> 00:52:04,649
a reunion in a different city

831
00:52:04,649 --> 00:52:06,929
in the United States every year.

832
00:52:06,929 --> 00:52:10,729
So we got to meet some
of the infantry guys and

833
00:52:10,729 --> 00:52:15,170
learn what they experienced
when they first arrived.

834
00:52:15,170 --> 00:52:17,390
That's how we first learned from 

835
00:52:17,390 --> 00:52:22,969
their experience
following the years as well.

836
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:26,249
So what day was this?

837
00:52:26,249 --> 00:52:28,210
This was Sunday morning,

838
00:52:28,210 --> 00:52:32,990
early Sunday morning,
April 29, 1945.

839
00:52:32,990 --> 00:52:38,610
And when you learned from
the other infantry members,

840
00:52:38,610 --> 00:52:41,489
had they, they arrived
earlier before you?

841
00:52:41,489 --> 00:52:44,869
Yes. And and what was
their experience?

842
00:52:44,869 --> 00:52:50,089
Well, they said the
first guys that got

843
00:52:50,089 --> 00:52:56,529
close to the entrance 
gate were fired upon.

844
00:52:58,170 --> 00:53:00,789
They later learned, we all

845
00:53:00,789 --> 00:53:04,350
did, before
any of us arrived

846
00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:06,989
there, a representative from

847
00:53:06,989 --> 00:53:11,610
the Swiss Red Cross had arrived

848
00:53:12,250 --> 00:53:19,170
in the morning of
27th or 28th of April.

849
00:53:19,890 --> 00:53:24,229
He had meetings with

850
00:53:24,229 --> 00:53:30,770
the SS officer in charge of
the huge German Army Camp,

851
00:53:30,770 --> 00:53:34,049
which was the SS
training camp as well,

852
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:39,129
which was next to
the prisoner camp.

853
00:53:39,129 --> 00:53:42,350
They control the prisoner camp.

854
00:53:42,350 --> 00:53:47,009
Told the SS officer in charge
he had a choice to make.

855
00:53:47,009 --> 00:53:50,010
The American Army
was coming close.

856
00:53:50,650 --> 00:53:53,349
He could either stay and fight

857
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:56,449
against overwhelming odds or

858
00:53:56,449 --> 00:53:58,709
arranged for a
peaceful surrender of

859
00:53:58,709 --> 00:54:02,330
both camps and save
a lot of lives.

860
00:54:02,330 --> 00:54:05,590
The Ss Officer apparently was not done yet.

861
00:54:05,590 --> 00:54:07,789
He said in that case,

862
00:54:07,789 --> 00:54:10,890
you'll arrange a surrender,

863
00:54:11,010 --> 00:54:17,609
take his SS officers

864
00:54:17,609 --> 00:54:25,310
and go to fight in the German soldiers soldiers
and go to defend Munich.

865
00:54:25,310 --> 00:54:28,830
It turned out to
be totally untrue

866
00:54:28,830 --> 00:54:34,350
because the record
shows that what his intention, and

867
00:54:34,350 --> 00:54:37,429
what he did. He and

868
00:54:37,429 --> 00:54:46,970
all SS left together with
about 2000 Jewish prisoners,

869
00:54:46,970 --> 00:54:52,610
the healthiest ones available
on a forced march,

870
00:54:53,250 --> 00:54:57,730
intending to end up in
the Austrian Alps..

871
00:54:59,010 --> 00:55:03,510
He knew the war wasn't
going to last much longer,

872
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:07,530
so he wanted these prisoners

873
00:55:07,530 --> 00:55:11,710
to be slave labor in
the Austrian Alps.

874
00:55:11,710 --> 00:55:22,435
So they left. He left one
SS junior lieutenant

875
00:55:22,435 --> 00:55:26,560
In charge to arrange
the surrender.

876
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:32,180
And we left and we were there
early that Sunday morning.

877
00:55:32,580 --> 00:55:35,179
We went there that long and we

878
00:55:35,179 --> 00:55:40,260
left. General Henry Linden from the 

879
00:55:40,260 --> 00:55:47,540
42nd Division arrived with
his several Jeep Lords [needs confirmation]

880
00:55:47,540 --> 00:55:51,699
body guards, whatever to

881
00:55:51,699 --> 00:55:55,479
arrange the surrender
of the prisoner camp.

882
00:55:55,479 --> 00:55:58,979
That was his orders. With him

883
00:55:58,979 --> 00:56:02,299
he had Margaret
Higgins which was

884
00:56:02,299 --> 00:56:07,159
a world renowned war correspondent,

885
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:15,619
several other people and
they were widely dispersed,

886
00:56:15,619 --> 00:56:18,699
dispersed picture of
them arriving with

887
00:56:18,699 --> 00:56:22,480
this SS lieutenant carrying

888
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:28,180
a pole with a white
flag on its cylinder.

889
00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:34,579
And that was about
02:30 that afternoon.

890
00:56:36,780 --> 00:56:41,820
By that time we were
well on our way to Munich [needs confirmation].

891
00:56:42,620 --> 00:56:45,380
That pretty much happened.

892
00:56:45,380 --> 00:56:52,939
What I learned from others
in first hand experience,

893
00:56:52,939 --> 00:56:55,820
that is another story.

894
00:56:57,660 --> 00:57:02,919
So, do you remember for you

895
00:57:02,919 --> 00:57:05,639
the end of the war? The VE day?

896
00:57:05,639 --> 00:57:08,099
Yes. A few days

897
00:57:08,099 --> 00:57:10,920
before the war was
actually declared over 

898
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,500
we knew the war was over

899
00:57:13,500 --> 00:57:19,820
because my particular
unit bypassed Munich.

900
00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:21,239
wasn't necessary [needs confirmation]
because there was

901
00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:25,280
no real combat in Munich.

902
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,319
Germans did very little,

903
00:57:29,319 --> 00:57:33,260
and then they retreated
out of Munich.

904
00:57:33,260 --> 00:57:36,619
So now we're on again on a two lane road.

905
00:57:36,619 --> 00:57:38,960
We had a short journey

906
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,459
somewhere along
the German autobahn,

907
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:47,079
didn't last too long.

908
00:57:47,079 --> 00:57:50,139
Then we were back
on a two way road

909
00:57:50,139 --> 00:57:53,620
headed to the Austrian border.

910
00:57:53,940 --> 00:58:00,459
Every, everything was backed up.

911
00:58:00,459 --> 00:58:07,219
Convoys ,trucks, tanks,
jeeps, you nam it.

912
00:58:07,219 --> 00:58:12,540
And it was 20 minutes of 

913
00:58:12,540 --> 00:58:17,620
sitting and two Ts [needs confirmation]
of moving forward.

914
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:19,419
And I remember very

915
00:58:19,419 --> 00:58:23,979
distinctly when we went
through several villages,

916
00:58:24,220 --> 00:58:29,260
German civilians in
southern Germany

917
00:58:30,660 --> 00:58:34,419
lined on both sides of the road,

918
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:36,999
because the houses that

919
00:58:36,999 --> 00:58:39,360
had second stories
of buildings,

920
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,699
had white flags and the

921
00:58:44,699 --> 00:58:51,500
civilians, it was like
a rehearsed chorus.

922
00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:53,459
By that time, my brother and

923
00:58:53,459 --> 00:58:55,079
I both could speak pretty good

924
00:58:55,079 --> 00:59:00,520
German. Because
growing up our parents

925
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,819
spoke Yiddish in the house and 

926
00:59:02,819 --> 00:59:08,080
Yiddish is really
similar to German.

927
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,479
A lot of words are the same,

928
00:59:10,479 --> 00:59:12,480
a lot of them are very similar.

929
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:20,379
So it was easy for us to pick
up German. So the civilians,

930
00:59:20,379 --> 00:59:27,380
amazingly, in German were
repeating the same message.

931
00:59:27,380 --> 00:59:34,100
The war will not be over until
you defeat the Russians.

932
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:38,080
They were scared to
death of the Russians.

933
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:45,380
It was the Russians in
revenge mode, so to speak.

934
00:59:45,580 --> 00:59:48,879
Wherein [undecipherable] allied forces were

935
00:59:48,879 --> 00:59:52,579
welcomed knowing they would

936
00:59:52,579 --> 00:59:57,300
get better treatment than
they would from the Russians.

937
00:59:57,300 --> 00:59:59,819
So, that was what
they were saying over

938
00:59:59,819 --> 01:00:04,219
and over again. That's fascinating.

939
01:00:04,219 --> 01:00:10,700
So, having seen the prison camp at Dachau 

940
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:14,919
did that change your
impression of, of the war at

941
01:00:14,919 --> 01:00:19,720
all or was it something you
kind of knew was happening?

942
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,420
Not really because as I
said, we didn't understand.

943
01:00:23,420 --> 01:00:29,300
We didn't know about headquarters
offices. They all knew.

944
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:31,420
They knew about the camps.

945
01:00:31,420 --> 01:00:36,419
The camps were not
military objectives.

946
01:00:38,620 --> 01:00:46,880
There was no plans
to trip any camps.

947
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,840
Concentration camps,

948
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,339
there were just not
military objectives.

949
01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:59,639
So, what did you and your
brother do after VE Day?

950
01:00:59,639 --> 01:01:01,940
Did you stay in Germany?

951
01:01:02,590 --> 01:01:07,049
No, we were in Germany
for a few days.

952
01:01:07,049 --> 01:01:10,210
Then they moved us into Austria.

953
01:01:10,210 --> 01:01:13,150
And a few days after
being in Austria,

954
01:01:13,150 --> 01:01:17,070
they moved back into Germany
because they decided

955
01:01:17,070 --> 01:01:19,489
the French troops would

956
01:01:19,489 --> 01:01:22,930
take over all positions
in southern Germany.

957
01:01:22,930 --> 01:01:25,330
Once the French arrived,

958
01:01:25,330 --> 01:01:32,350
then we relocated to an area
near Salzburg, Austria.

959
01:01:32,350 --> 01:01:34,510
And that became, we became

960
01:01:34,510 --> 01:01:42,230
the Army of Occupation
in Southern Germany.

961
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:45,810
For the first time,

962
01:01:45,810 --> 01:01:50,009
my gun battery was able to take

963
01:01:50,009 --> 01:01:54,270
over a couple of civilian
two or three story houses.

964
01:01:54,270 --> 01:01:56,529
And for the first
time we were able

965
01:01:56,529 --> 01:02:00,029
to sleep in a real bed.

966
01:02:00,470 --> 01:02:07,790
Most of these houses
had elderly house trials, or

967
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:10,510
if it wasn't a house trial,

968
01:02:10,510 --> 01:02:13,449
it was a couple,
elderly couple, too

969
01:02:13,449 --> 01:02:16,870
old to be involved
in combat or whatever.

970
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:20,229
So they moved them out to live [needs confirmation]

971
01:02:20,229 --> 01:02:23,429
in with some other
neighbors so that we could

972
01:02:23,429 --> 01:02:30,660
take over those few houses
for our100 men, gun diner [needs confirmation].

973
01:02:30,660 --> 01:02:33,379
And at that time we

974
01:02:33,379 --> 01:02:39,799
were, the war was over so we
were each soldier was

975
01:02:39,799 --> 01:02:43,759
allotted, each week we
could get one carton of

976
01:02:43,759 --> 01:02:50,719
cigarettes contain
ten packs cigarettes.

977
01:02:50,719 --> 01:02:54,180
A carton was $0.50.

978
01:02:54,180 --> 01:02:57,320
That means each pack
was only a nickel.

979
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,500
And in our K rations
and C rations,

980
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:04,819
we had little packets
of four cigarettes.

981
01:03:05,660 --> 01:03:10,400
We're also allowed
two candy bars 

982
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:15,269
a week, 1 bar of soap a week.

983
01:03:15,350 --> 01:03:20,009
That's what we used to pay
the house drive [needs confirmation] to come in

984
01:03:20,009 --> 01:03:25,609
every day to make up our
beds, wash our uniforms,

985
01:03:25,609 --> 01:03:27,830
our clothes and
underwear, our socks,

986
01:03:27,830 --> 01:03:32,250
whatever. Cleaning
the house if needed

987
01:03:32,250 --> 01:03:37,829
cleaning. And that was we
paid her in cigarettes,

988
01:03:38,310 --> 01:03:43,309
candy bar or whatever it took.

989
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:48,429
Did you interact with
any displaced persons

990
01:03:48,429 --> 01:03:53,410
while you were as part
of this occupying force?

991
01:03:53,410 --> 01:03:55,709
Any civilians? Civilians but

992
01:03:55,709 --> 01:04:03,690
specifically DP's, displaced
persons. Only that occurred

993
01:04:03,690 --> 01:04:08,720
we knew that nearby
that nearby Munich,

994
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,740
there was a displaced persons
camp that was arranged.

995
01:04:13,740 --> 01:04:19,700
We also knew in one of those
displaced persons camps,

996
01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:23,480
there were a lot of Russians,

997
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:26,339
especially civilians,

998
01:04:26,339 --> 01:04:30,800
that the Germans had used
as slave labor also.

999
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:36,320
And we also learned there was
railroad tank cars

1000
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,780
containing jet fuel,

1001
01:04:38,780 --> 01:04:40,879
because the Germans
were the only ones

1002
01:04:40,879 --> 01:04:43,499
that had jet ,jet airplanes.

1003
01:04:43,499 --> 01:04:49,680
The Russians got into it and
they thought it was vodka.

1004
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,879
And unfortunately,

1005
01:04:54,879 --> 01:04:57,340
there were a lot of dead Russians

1006
01:04:57,340 --> 01:04:59,960
from drinking that stuff.

1007
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,519
We learned about that.And

1008
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,740
that was no real contact.

1009
01:05:08,740 --> 01:05:11,840
The contact came
later in the Austrian war.

1010
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:16,519
And that was during the army occupation.

1011
01:05:16,519 --> 01:05:19,059
So, tell me about that.

1012
01:05:19,059 --> 01:05:21,360
Well, it just so happened,

1013
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:23,479
after the war ended,

1014
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:29,099
the last concentration camp

1015
01:05:29,099 --> 01:05:33,779
that was liberated was
in Ebensee Austria,

1016
01:05:33,779 --> 01:05:37,560
which is a sub camp
of Mauthausen.

1017
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:43,199
They were liberated two days
before the end of the war.

1018
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:49,160
Our division was ordered a

1019
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:55,939
150 army trucks to go
to Ebensee Austria,

1020
01:05:55,939 --> 01:06:00,339
load up with the survivors,

1021
01:06:00,339 --> 01:06:05,539
about 1,500 survivors. Transport

1022
01:06:05,539 --> 01:06:10,360
them to Bad Gastein, Austria.

1023
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:16,199
Bad Gastein consisted
of luxury hotels.

1024
01:06:16,860 --> 01:06:20,059
Before the war, they were

1025
01:06:20,060 --> 01:06:24,200
one of the finest spas
in all of Europe.

1026
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,140
People came from around
the world because

1027
01:06:27,140 --> 01:06:31,820
the hotels had radium
baths in the basements.

1028
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:35,240
Water that was piped in
from inside the mountains,

1029
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,360
they claimed would have radium in it.

1030
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:39,380
I guess similar to Hot Springs,

1031
01:06:39,380 --> 01:06:41,240
Arkansas, in this country,

1032
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,840
and they claimed it
would cure whatever

1033
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:49,820
ails you. So people came to spend
time there in these radium baths.

1034
01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:55,759
So anyhow, during the war,

1035
01:06:55,759 --> 01:06:59,839
the Germans used these hotels as

1036
01:06:59,839 --> 01:07:04,800
convalescent facilities for
wounded German soldiers.

1037
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:09,879
That's why they kept the
civilian help, out of there.

1038
01:07:09,879 --> 01:07:14,679
So when the war ended,
they moved out,

1039
01:07:14,679 --> 01:07:18,739
the US military moved the
German soldiers out to

1040
01:07:18,739 --> 01:07:20,619
whatever health facilities were

1041
01:07:20,619 --> 01:07:23,879
available for recuperation.

1042
01:07:23,879 --> 01:07:26,140
So the hotels were empty.

1043
01:07:26,140 --> 01:07:31,599
That's why the
Washington decided that

1044
01:07:31,599 --> 01:07:36,920
the survivors should
be relocated from Ebensee.

1045
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,259
to these empty hotels.

1046
01:07:39,259 --> 01:07:44,279
It just so happened
that every US.

1047
01:07:44,279 --> 01:07:49,399
Army division in Europe
formed a football squad.

1048
01:07:49,399 --> 01:07:51,880
I heard about it then I applied,

1049
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,339
made an application,
and I was accepted.

1050
01:07:54,339 --> 01:07:57,459
So that's how I
ended up in one of

1051
01:07:57,459 --> 01:08:01,800
those hotels in Bad Gastein, Austria.

1052
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,780
That was our training camp.

1053
01:08:05,300 --> 01:08:08,259
We used to fly, drive

1054
01:08:08,259 --> 01:08:11,160
around Europe playing
other division teams.

1055
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,900
Well, one afternoon
after practice,

1056
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:19,579
my roommate who was not a
member of the football team,

1057
01:08:19,579 --> 01:08:23,919
he was an equipment manager.
He was my roommate,

1058
01:08:23,919 --> 01:08:26,319
and he and I were
walking around,

1059
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:31,719
Bad Gastein and
coming towards us were

1060
01:08:31,719 --> 01:08:37,639
four of these survivors.
For a particular reason,

1061
01:08:37,639 --> 01:08:41,039
I recognize one of them. Stopped.

1062
01:08:41,039 --> 01:08:45,139
to say hello,
how are you doing,

1063
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:48,019
glad that you're okay,

1064
01:08:48,019 --> 01:08:51,459
things like have you been taken care of?

1065
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:56,579
As we walked away,
it was very brief,

1066
01:08:56,579 --> 01:08:58,699
as we walked away, my roommate,

1067
01:08:58,699 --> 01:09:00,839
he didn't know I was Jewish.

1068
01:09:00,839 --> 01:09:05,754
He said, well, it looks
like Hitler didn't get him on.

1069
01:09:05,754 --> 01:09:09,449
Of course he didn't
realize. I said,

1070
01:09:09,449 --> 01:09:13,109
look I'm sorry, you
just offended me.

1071
01:09:13,109 --> 01:09:16,249
I happen to be Jewish.

1072
01:09:16,290 --> 01:09:19,929
He didn't know what to do.

1073
01:09:19,929 --> 01:09:23,029
He just quickly
walked away from me.

1074
01:09:23,029 --> 01:09:25,749
And even though he
was my roommate,

1075
01:09:25,749 --> 01:09:29,969
he tried to avoid me
as much as possible,

1076
01:09:29,969 --> 01:09:34,069
wouldn't talk to me. 
Finally about a week or so,

1077
01:09:34,069 --> 01:09:37,549
I said, look, let's
sit down and talk.

1078
01:09:37,549 --> 01:09:39,549
I have some questions
I'd like to

1079
01:09:39,549 --> 01:09:42,129
ask you. So I asked him, I said,

1080
01:09:42,129 --> 01:09:47,069
help me understand
what caused you to say

1081
01:09:47,069 --> 01:09:49,849
what you said? He

1082
01:09:49,849 --> 01:09:53,809
told me that he was born
on a farm in Nebraska.

1083
01:09:53,809 --> 01:09:57,109
Occasionally, he would go with

1084
01:09:57,109 --> 01:10:01,109
his father on a wagon into town, the

1085
01:10:01,109 --> 01:10:06,549
nearest town, to buy provisions
and some clothes,

1086
01:10:06,549 --> 01:10:08,489
sometimes for family members,

1087
01:10:08,489 --> 01:10:10,589
take it back to the farm.

1088
01:10:10,589 --> 01:10:13,749
So he said they would go
into this clothing store,

1089
01:10:13,749 --> 01:10:17,009
his father would select certain things.

1090
01:10:18,010 --> 01:10:21,650
Then they would go to another
store for provisions.

1091
01:10:21,650 --> 01:10:24,934
Thise stores had to be
owned by Jewish families.

1092
01:10:24,934 --> 01:10:29,899
He says every trip on his
way back to the farm,

1093
01:10:29,899 --> 01:10:33,619
his father would tell
him the same remarks.

1094
01:10:33,619 --> 01:10:38,959
Those Jews, they had life
so easy. Us poor farmers,

1095
01:10:38,959 --> 01:10:40,259
we worked so hard.

1096
01:10:40,259 --> 01:10:42,299
We make very little.

1097
01:10:42,299 --> 01:10:44,299
And they have life so easy,

1098
01:10:44,299 --> 01:10:46,279
they make so much
money off of us

1099
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:49,499
poor farmers. He said he

1100
01:10:49,499 --> 01:10:52,379
never had any conversation
with any Jewish person

1101
01:10:52,379 --> 01:10:54,979
he never really knew
any Jewish person.

1102
01:10:54,979 --> 01:10:57,620
That, that was his upbringing

1103
01:10:57,620 --> 01:11:02,499
and that was behind
what he said.

1104
01:11:02,499 --> 01:11:05,499
After that, everything
was okay, fine, and 

1105
01:11:05,499 --> 01:11:08,939
we got along. That was that story.

1106
01:11:11,020 --> 01:11:16,159
So, tell me then about
your return to the U.S.

1107
01:11:16,159 --> 01:11:18,599
and discharge from the army.

1108
01:11:18,599 --> 01:11:22,160
Well, we were in the
army of occupation

1109
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:28,039
in Austria for
about nine months.

1110
01:11:28,039 --> 01:11:33,379
We left there in March,

1111
01:11:34,460 --> 01:11:39,359
middle of March, 1946,

1112
01:11:39,359 --> 01:11:43,059
and we were on a
liberty ship by

1113
01:11:43,059 --> 01:11:49,179
SS Manor [undecipherable]. And we

1114
01:11:49,580 --> 01:11:53,639
I guess it was a seven day trip.

1115
01:11:53,639 --> 01:11:57,639
And of course when we saw
the Statue of Liberty again,

1116
01:11:57,639 --> 01:12:01,139
we were all cheering on deck,

1117
01:12:01,139 --> 01:12:05,119
cheering, hollering, very happy.

1118
01:12:05,119 --> 01:12:10,999
So we disembarked and they
sent us back to Fort Bragg,

1119
01:12:10,999 --> 01:12:13,740
North Carolina for discharge. And

1120
01:12:14,700 --> 01:12:20,339
after processing, they
put us on a train.

1121
01:12:20,339 --> 01:12:23,260
My brother in law went
back to Jacksonville [needs confirmation].

1122
01:12:23,260 --> 01:12:26,879
We ended up in Jacksonville where

1123
01:12:26,879 --> 01:12:28,939
[undecipherable] to train station.

1124
01:12:28,939 --> 01:12:31,899
And we were back home again.

1125
01:12:32,690 --> 01:12:36,449
So one thing I realized I
didn't ask you about when you

1126
01:12:36,449 --> 01:12:39,890
were still in the
army of occupation,

1127
01:12:39,890 --> 01:12:41,669
do you remember hearing about

1128
01:12:41,669 --> 01:12:44,729
the dropping of the
atomic bomb on ,

1129
01:12:44,729 --> 01:12:47,390
excuse me, on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki?

1130
01:12:47,390 --> 01:12:50,069
Well, there again,
that's something

1131
01:12:50,069 --> 01:12:53,069
easy to remember
because we had already

1132
01:12:53,069 --> 01:12:55,909
been told to start

1133
01:12:55,909 --> 01:13:04,329
preparing our howitzers 
and our Carbide rifles.

1134
01:13:07,170 --> 01:13:13,650
which is [undecipherable] something
like similar to vasaline.

1135
01:13:13,650 --> 01:13:16,009
We had to put them,
which we had to do it in

1136
01:13:16,009 --> 01:13:18,029
the states as well
before we went

1137
01:13:18,029 --> 01:13:25,389
overseas to cover the
howitzers and firearms so that

1138
01:13:25,389 --> 01:13:27,809
the salt water from

1139
01:13:27,809 --> 01:13:30,609
the ocean voyage would

1140
01:13:30,609 --> 01:13:33,809
not affect them. Ofcourse 
we had to clean them off

1141
01:13:33,809 --> 01:13:39,869
when we got overseas to prepare
for going to the Pacific.

1142
01:13:39,869 --> 01:13:42,709
So they were already
preparing us and

1143
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:45,749
some soldiers had already

1144
01:13:45,749 --> 01:13:49,070
boarded ships heading
to the Pacific.

1145
01:13:49,070 --> 01:13:50,569
Not in our division,

1146
01:13:50,569 --> 01:13:52,509
but in other, we were aware

1147
01:13:52,509 --> 01:13:56,349
that other divisions
were already on the way.

1148
01:13:56,349 --> 01:14:00,849
So when we got the news about
the first atomic bomb,

1149
01:14:00,849 --> 01:14:04,109
believe me, we said,

1150
01:14:04,109 --> 01:14:06,850
we hope that ends soon. And

1151
01:14:08,970 --> 01:14:12,769
we were very pleased believe me. Yeah.

1152
01:14:12,930 --> 01:14:16,789
So, going back then or

1153
01:14:16,789 --> 01:14:21,509
forward to April of 1946
when you are home again,

1154
01:14:21,509 --> 01:14:23,769
what were your hopes
and dreams for

1155
01:14:23,769 --> 01:14:26,089
the future at this
point in time?

1156
01:14:26,089 --> 01:14:29,189
Well, after being home.

1157
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:35,474
And that was April 9, 1946,

1158
01:14:35,474 --> 01:14:41,619
the immediate thought,
enter summer school back at

1159
01:14:41,619 --> 01:14:44,379
the University of
Florida to try and catch

1160
01:14:44,379 --> 01:14:49,359
up much as we could to
try and get our degrees.

1161
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:51,999
So that's what we did.

1162
01:14:51,999 --> 01:14:55,539
And did you at that point,

1163
01:14:55,539 --> 01:14:58,959
did you take advantage
of the new GI bill?

1164
01:14:58,959 --> 01:15:01,399
Very definitely, yeah.

1165
01:15:01,399 --> 01:15:04,539
We were pleased that [needs confirmation] when we had

1166
01:15:04,539 --> 01:15:09,259
the GI bill available, it
made life easier.

1167
01:15:12,300 --> 01:15:20,379
We didn't[needs confirmation] discuss talk about
military experience at all.

1168
01:15:20,379 --> 01:15:23,299
Because first of all,

1169
01:15:24,900 --> 01:15:30,599
my personal opinion
was during the war,

1170
01:15:30,599 --> 01:15:33,979
we realized we had
family, friends,

1171
01:15:33,979 --> 01:15:37,659
neighbors that became involved

1172
01:15:37,659 --> 01:15:40,979
in the war effort
in some manner. Some feel

1173
01:15:41,300 --> 01:15:50,519
they had their own stories
to tell. So I'll tell them our stories.So

1174
01:15:50,519 --> 01:15:54,219
we never told them. Never told my wife.

1175
01:15:54,219 --> 01:16:04,959
Never told my children until
some years ago. In 1948

1176
01:16:04,959 --> 01:16:06,439
do you remember, do you have

1177
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:08,659
memories of the creation
of the State of Israel?

1178
01:16:08,659 --> 01:16:13,219
I'm curious whether that was
important in your community.

1179
01:16:13,219 --> 01:16:20,619
Yes. It just so happened what
I learned after the war,

1180
01:16:21,060 --> 01:16:24,019
I had a first
cousin in Richmond,

1181
01:16:24,019 --> 01:16:28,099
Virginia, who got
into the Air Force.

1182
01:16:29,860 --> 01:16:34,739
I also learned I had
my favorite uncle,

1183
01:16:34,860 --> 01:16:39,419
seven uncles
and I had contact

1184
01:16:39,419 --> 01:16:45,259
with six in the
Virginia, Maryland area [needs confirmation].

1185
01:16:45,259 --> 01:16:47,880
one more in Jacksonville.

1186
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:52,739
My favorite uncle was involved,

1187
01:16:52,740 --> 01:16:54,939
I won't go into a lot of

1188
01:16:54,939 --> 01:16:58,560
details of how he
became involved [needs confirmation]

1189
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:06,959
 He ended up getting groups
together. Put up money.

1190
01:17:06,959 --> 01:17:13,739
Number one, they bought the
with my uncle in charge.

1191
01:17:13,739 --> 01:17:16,599
they gave me [needs confirmation] an old ferry boat

1192
01:17:16,599 --> 01:17:22,199
sitting in a harbor in
Virginia. They bought it,

1193
01:17:22,199 --> 01:17:25,295
they had it remodeled,

1194
01:17:25,295 --> 01:17:29,850
had it sail to Cyprus.

1195
01:17:30,610 --> 01:17:34,930
That ship ended up
being the Exodus.

1196
01:17:36,250 --> 01:17:42,129
He also arranged,
he got involved

1197
01:17:42,129 --> 01:17:45,889
with a personal airplane. But

1198
01:17:45,889 --> 01:17:49,970
my man [needs confirmation] couldn't understand
what he need airplane.

1199
01:17:51,690 --> 01:17:55,109
We found out later
it was to enable

1200
01:17:55,109 --> 01:18:00,270
him to learn something
about airplanes.

1201
01:18:00,270 --> 01:18:04,389
He ended up together with
a group he formed 

1202
01:18:04,389 --> 01:18:09,989
by three surplus US.

1203
01:18:09,989 --> 01:18:12,949
Constellation passenger planes.

1204
01:18:12,949 --> 01:18:18,829
Had them all taken apart,
put wooden crates,

1205
01:18:18,829 --> 01:18:23,969
marked [needs confirmation] machinery, parts
shipped to Israel,

1206
01:18:23,969 --> 01:18:28,009
which became three airplanes.

1207
01:18:28,009 --> 01:18:34,089
The original Israeli Air
Force. Things like that.

1208
01:18:35,010 --> 01:18:41,549
So how did you come
to settle in Georgia?

1209
01:18:41,549 --> 01:18:47,969
Business reasons.
Because early on,

1210
01:18:47,969 --> 01:18:52,449
before my brother and I, we were
last year in college,

1211
01:18:52,449 --> 01:18:56,189
I mentioned our older
brother is was 4F.

1212
01:18:56,189 --> 01:18:58,729
we had these uncles
in Virginia that

1213
01:18:58,729 --> 01:19:00,889
were all during the war

1214
01:19:00,889 --> 01:19:01,889
they were in the house to

1215
01:19:01,889 --> 01:19:03,309
house ,before and during the war,

1216
01:19:03,309 --> 01:19:05,349
they were in the house
to house business,

1217
01:19:05,349 --> 01:19:09,449
selling housewares and
credit door to door.

1218
01:19:09,930 --> 01:19:13,009
So that's where my
older brother went.

1219
01:19:13,009 --> 01:19:15,369
He went to work for them.

1220
01:19:15,369 --> 01:19:17,529
He learned the business.

1221
01:19:17,529 --> 01:19:22,769
Came back to Jacksonville
when we were seniors in college.

1222
01:19:22,769 --> 01:19:25,089
And got together and said,

1223
01:19:25,089 --> 01:19:26,889
let's start the same business in

1224
01:19:26,889 --> 01:19:31,350
Jacksonville. So
especially on weekends

1225
01:19:31,350 --> 01:19:34,049
that's when Howard 
I would come back to

1226
01:19:34,049 --> 01:19:37,629
Jacksonville and that's what Howard did.

1227
01:19:37,629 --> 01:19:40,489
On
Saturdays and Sundays

1228
01:19:40,489 --> 01:19:46,789
I would go door to door
selling housewares, linens,

1229
01:19:46,789 --> 01:19:53,509
bed linens, blankets,
silverware pots and pan,

1230
01:19:53,509 --> 01:19:55,329
aluminum pots and pans.

1231
01:19:55,329 --> 01:20:01,049
On credit Dollar [undecipherable].
 find them home.

1232
01:20:01,049 --> 01:20:06,529
So by the time we
graduated college, I

1233
01:20:07,010 --> 01:20:11,169
dream of going to
Wharton School of Finance,

1234
01:20:11,169 --> 01:20:13,250
University of Pennsylvania,

1235
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:19,030
getting master's degrees
and becoming CPA's.

1236
01:20:19,030 --> 01:20:23,249
We threw all that aside and
said we got a business already.

1237
01:20:23,249 --> 01:20:27,629
So that's what we did back
home,

1238
01:20:27,629 --> 01:20:31,770
we spent our time developing, and 

1239
01:20:31,770 --> 01:20:34,989
increasing the size
of the business.

1240
01:20:34,989 --> 01:20:39,709
Then from that, after
a couple of years,

1241
01:20:39,709 --> 01:20:43,569
three years, we decided the
future of that [needs confirmation] business,

1242
01:20:43,569 --> 01:20:47,169
We can add one to
neighborhood shopping centers,

1243
01:20:47,169 --> 01:20:50,609
followed by two star,
two car families.

1244
01:20:50,609 --> 01:20:52,829
They didn't need us anymore.

1245
01:20:52,829 --> 01:20:58,249
So we flipped into
selling furniture.

1246
01:20:58,249 --> 01:20:59,849
That's how we ended
up getting into

1247
01:20:59,849 --> 01:21:03,229
furniture business.
We got together with

1248
01:21:03,229 --> 01:21:06,889
two brothers from Ohio.

1249
01:21:06,970 --> 01:21:09,469
They previously worked for

1250
01:21:09,469 --> 01:21:11,689
us in the house to
house business.

1251
01:21:11,689 --> 01:21:14,049
One of them had left,

1252
01:21:14,049 --> 01:21:16,249
the other one left
to go in the Navy.

1253
01:21:16,249 --> 01:21:18,389
They both ended up, and 

1254
01:21:18,389 --> 01:21:21,470
the other one was in the
Navy in Jacksonville.

1255
01:21:21,470 --> 01:21:23,949
That's one of the big Navy things.

1256
01:21:23,949 --> 01:21:29,219
So he moved to Ohio
to join his brother.

1257
01:21:29,219 --> 01:21:32,969
 And they had opened two
furniture stores. So

1258
01:21:32,969 --> 01:21:35,789
we were already
selling furniture and 

1259
01:21:35,789 --> 01:21:39,409
Credit [needs confirmation] so we got
together with them and

1260
01:21:39,409 --> 01:21:44,349
decided there two
stores in Ohio,

1261
01:21:44,349 --> 01:21:46,409
our store, we opened

1262
01:21:46,409 --> 01:21:51,389
a regular furniture store
in Jacksonville [undecipherable] into the stores.

1263
01:21:51,389 --> 01:21:53,530
We form a partnership

1264
01:21:53,530 --> 01:21:57,249
to expand and open
more furniture stores. So

1265
01:21:57,249 --> 01:21:59,750
after we opened Indianapolis,

1266
01:21:59,750 --> 01:22:02,209
Indiana together, we decided to

1267
01:22:02,209 --> 01:22:05,689
open a furniture store
in Atlanta, Georgia.

1268
01:22:05,689 --> 01:22:08,889
That's how we ended

1269
01:22:08,889 --> 01:22:11,529
up with a furniture store
at Atlanta, Georgia.

1270
01:22:11,529 --> 01:22:13,549
One thing led to another.

1271
01:22:13,549 --> 01:22:17,409
My twin brother Howard
first decided to move

1272
01:22:17,409 --> 01:22:23,129
his family to Atlanta for him
to operate. Now as that store

1273
01:22:23,129 --> 01:22:24,890
was doing extremely

1274
01:22:24,890 --> 01:22:29,769
well and the manages we
had couldn't handle it.

1275
01:22:29,769 --> 01:22:35,989
Then as we expanded further,

1276
01:22:35,989 --> 01:22:39,569
I used to go to Atlanta 
and spent two weeks at

1277
01:22:39,569 --> 01:22:45,869
a time in that store
and back to Jacksonville.

1278
01:22:45,869 --> 01:22:50,890
And then we went upto another
totally different partnership

1279
01:22:50,890 --> 01:22:54,334
that was quite different.

1280
01:22:54,334 --> 01:23:00,159
And then I decide, better

1281
01:23:00,159 --> 01:23:02,499
move my wife and my
mother in law to

1282
01:23:02,499 --> 01:23:06,979
Atlanta. That's how we
ended up at the business reasons.

1283
01:23:06,979 --> 01:23:11,839
Sure. And was this, what
yearish was this?

1284
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:17,000
Well, I see, that would
have been 1984.

1285
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:18,159
Okay.

1286
01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:22,039
Myself, my
wife and my mother in law,

1287
01:23:22,039 --> 01:23:30,259
we moved to Atlanta, Georgia and
we are area[needs confirmation ]in 1984.

1288
01:23:30,259 --> 01:23:33,299
So, in that interim
time between when

1289
01:23:33,299 --> 01:23:35,819
you finished college and
you came to Atlanta,

1290
01:23:35,819 --> 01:23:37,459
you're still in the South

1291
01:23:37,459 --> 01:23:39,279
but you're kind of
in different places,

1292
01:23:39,279 --> 01:23:40,839
did you have a sense

1293
01:23:40,839 --> 01:23:44,619
for what was going on in
the Civil Rights movement?

1294
01:23:44,619 --> 01:23:47,879
Did that affect you or
did you notice? Well,

1295
01:23:47,879 --> 01:23:50,600
first of all, Jacksonville,

1296
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:59,120
Florida has youngsters.
There was segregation.

1297
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:06,539
There was segregation throughout.Since we

1298
01:24:06,539 --> 01:24:09,659
we certainly are well aware of

1299
01:24:09,659 --> 01:24:15,200
the black families because
of our [undecipherable ]experience with

1300
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:20,499
our father's store. In fact,

1301
01:24:20,499 --> 01:24:23,559
I mentioned Anderson Smoke shop

1302
01:24:23,559 --> 01:24:25,819
across the street from
my father's store,

1303
01:24:25,819 --> 01:24:30,219
he also owned a
black baseball team.

1304
01:24:30,219 --> 01:24:34,439
The first professional
baseball game I ever

1305
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:39,159
saw was between two black teams.

1306
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:44,420
My father, coming
from Lithuania,

1307
01:24:44,420 --> 01:24:48,099
didn't know baseball from beans.

1308
01:24:48,099 --> 01:24:54,339
But Mr. Anderson gave him some
tickets to some of the games.

1309
01:24:54,339 --> 01:24:56,419
So that's how my father got

1310
01:24:56,419 --> 01:24:58,299
introduced to
baseball and became

1311
01:24:58,299 --> 01:25:02,579
a baseball fan.
Things like that.

1312
01:25:02,579 --> 01:25:05,399
So we sympathize and we

1313
01:25:05,399 --> 01:25:10,559
understood the situation
with black families. We had, 

1314
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:16,179
since my mother would
work in the store,

1315
01:25:16,179 --> 01:25:19,659
she hired a black female named

1316
01:25:19,659 --> 01:25:23,559
Annie to come to the
house every day,

1317
01:25:23,559 --> 01:25:26,199
take care of the house.

1318
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,319
Mother taught her how to cook

1319
01:25:30,319 --> 01:25:33,339
certain kosher
dishes and whatnot.

1320
01:25:33,339 --> 01:25:36,539
She made great pies.

1321
01:25:36,539 --> 01:25:40,219
But we had contact with

1322
01:25:40,219 --> 01:25:44,339
Jack, Black families
all that time.

1323
01:25:44,339 --> 01:25:49,179
So that was a common thread
because there was a lot of

1324
01:25:49,179 --> 01:25:52,720
common threads between
the Jewish population

1325
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,080
and the Black population

1326
01:25:55,080 --> 01:26:02,560
during that period. One experience
I had in Jacksonville,

1327
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:06,340
which you can consider Anti Semitic,

1328
01:26:07,540 --> 01:26:11,340
we would discount is[needs confirmation]
in furniture.

1329
01:26:11,460 --> 01:26:14,679
Simmons Bedding did not sell

1330
01:26:14,679 --> 01:26:19,600
us because we were discounters,

1331
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,259
but through our partners
in Columbus, Ohio,

1332
01:26:24,390 --> 01:26:28,950
there was a major department
store in Indianapolis,

1333
01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:34,930
Indiana that sold
Simmons Mattresses.

1334
01:26:34,930 --> 01:26:38,709
Their inventory
got out of whack.

1335
01:26:39,990 --> 01:26:45,429
They were out of inventory
on the beauty rush line [needs confirmation],

1336
01:26:45,429 --> 01:26:47,829
which is the highest price line.

1337
01:26:47,829 --> 01:26:53,889
They had too much inventory
of the cheaper Simmons beddings,

1338
01:26:53,889 --> 01:26:56,329
so they wanted to sell

1339
01:26:56,329 --> 01:26:59,729
a few trailer loads of

1340
01:26:59,729 --> 01:27:04,989
Simmons Mattresses. The partner
found out about it,

1341
01:27:04,989 --> 01:27:09,969
ended up, he made arrangements
to buy three trailer loads.

1342
01:27:09,969 --> 01:27:14,489
One trailer load was delivered
to Jacksonville, Florida.

1343
01:27:14,489 --> 01:27:18,689
All we wanted to do
was sell that Simmons

1344
01:27:18,689 --> 01:27:23,389
bedding a little
above actual cost and

1345
01:27:23,389 --> 01:27:26,249
turn it back into money.

1346
01:27:26,249 --> 01:27:31,250
We ran a big full page ad
in the local newspaper.

1347
01:27:31,250 --> 01:27:38,389
All this Simmons
bedding at lowball prices.

1348
01:27:38,389 --> 01:27:43,029
I got a phone call from

1349
01:27:43,029 --> 01:27:48,310
the editor of the local
Jacksonville newspaper,

1350
01:27:49,350 --> 01:27:53,229
calling e to come to his office,

1351
01:27:53,550 --> 01:27:56,109
which I arrived there, he said,

1352
01:27:56,109 --> 01:28:00,529
look, you not be a liar [needs confirmation]

1353
01:28:00,529 --> 01:28:06,589
to run that kind
of ad in my paper.

1354
01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:14,989
What's wrong with the
ad? He said, I'm sorry,

1355
01:28:14,989 --> 01:28:22,969
that's the edict. Well, we

1356
01:28:22,969 --> 01:28:25,409
sold off enough of that

1357
01:28:25,409 --> 01:28:31,029
bedding, didn't have
to run another ad.

1358
01:28:31,230 --> 01:28:34,389
Pricing was arranged just
to at least pay for the,

1359
01:28:34,389 --> 01:28:37,029
ad, get our money back.

1360
01:28:37,029 --> 01:28:46,369
So I found out he was a
member of a Country Club.

1361
01:28:46,369 --> 01:28:48,669
No Jews, no blacks,

1362
01:28:48,669 --> 01:28:50,869
and no dogs allowed.

1363
01:28:51,750 --> 01:28:55,309
He got complaints from

1364
01:28:55,309 --> 01:28:57,729
his fellow country
Club members about that,

1365
01:28:57,729 --> 01:29:01,429
ad, because they sold Simmons bedding,

1366
01:29:01,429 --> 01:29:03,689
and the fact that we
were under selling

1367
01:29:03,689 --> 01:29:06,909
them, they got upset. So

1368
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:11,629
you could classify that as anti

1369
01:29:11,629 --> 01:29:15,109
That's fascinating.

1370
01:29:16,770 --> 01:29:20,069
So we're going to wrap
up pretty soon, but I have one kind of 

1371
01:29:20,069 --> 01:29:24,809
one last, just thinking about
the 20th century question.

1372
01:29:24,809 --> 01:29:28,289
So you, you said when you
went into Germany,

1373
01:29:28,289 --> 01:29:31,789
the civilians were
saying to you,

1374
01:29:31,789 --> 01:29:35,169
the war is not over till
you defeat the Russians.

1375
01:29:35,169 --> 01:29:37,429
You know they were worried
about the Russians.

1376
01:29:37,429 --> 01:29:39,849
World War Two of course ends,

1377
01:29:39,849 --> 01:29:42,929
but then the United States and

1378
01:29:42,929 --> 01:29:46,929
the west ends up in a Cold
War with Russia.

1379
01:29:46,929 --> 01:29:49,830
Did you have any thoughts
on that? impressions?

1380
01:29:49,830 --> 01:29:52,129
How that affected your life?

1381
01:29:52,129 --> 01:29:55,869
Well the best answer.
I can give you would

1382
01:29:55,869 --> 01:30:02,049
be President Reagan's
trust. But verify [needs confirmation].

1383
01:30:02,930 --> 01:30:06,729
You'll never trust it unless you can

1384
01:30:06,729 --> 01:30:14,269
verify it. Just so happened
in Jacksonville growing up,

1385
01:30:14,269 --> 01:30:16,509
we had one man,

1386
01:30:16,509 --> 01:30:18,549
a Jewish man,

1387
01:30:18,549 --> 01:30:24,209
he was missing his
trigger finger.

1388
01:30:24,970 --> 01:30:29,889
Well the story was he was
living in Russia.

1389
01:30:29,889 --> 01:30:36,069
He took a gun and he
shot his finger off,

1390
01:30:36,069 --> 01:30:38,929
his trigger finger, so he
wouldn't have to go into

1391
01:30:38,929 --> 01:30:43,829
the Russian army. And
that we knew about.

1392
01:30:43,829 --> 01:30:46,430
So if that gave you an indication

1393
01:30:46,430 --> 01:30:50,609
it wasn't pleasant to get
in the Russian Army.

1394
01:30:50,810 --> 01:30:54,329
We were aware of
things like that.

1395
01:30:57,370 --> 01:31:00,769
So tell me about your family?

1396
01:31:00,769 --> 01:31:06,289
Kind of, I know your son
is here with us today.

1397
01:31:06,289 --> 01:31:09,349
Well, my wife and I are very,

1398
01:31:09,349 --> 01:31:12,349
very fortunate because
our three children,

1399
01:31:12,349 --> 01:31:16,329
our son and two daughters all

1400
01:31:16,329 --> 01:31:20,829
live in the Atlanta
area close by.

1401
01:31:20,829 --> 01:31:23,990
We have eight grandchildren,

1402
01:31:23,990 --> 01:31:30,149
six of them live very
close by . And now there are

1403
01:31:30,149 --> 01:31:34,469
two of them, one is
Jerry's son, Adam.

1404
01:31:34,469 --> 01:31:40,649
He's a psychologist
in Chicago area.

1405
01:31:40,650 --> 01:31:43,889
His daughter is Adam[needs confirmation]

1406
01:31:43,889 --> 01:31:45,450
Daughters, Sons [needs confirmation]

1407
01:31:45,450 --> 01:31:47,289
his daughter,

1408
01:31:47,289 --> 01:31:49,729
Kelsey who lives in
Brooklyn, New York.

1409
01:31:49,729 --> 01:31:54,490
She works for a
corporate headquarters.

1410
01:31:54,970 --> 01:31:57,069
The others are here,

1411
01:31:57,069 --> 01:32:02,569
we have three great
granddaughters close by,

1412
01:32:02,569 --> 01:32:05,949
so we get to enjoy them as well.

1413
01:32:05,949 --> 01:32:11,729
So we're very fortunate.
And we're getting ready,

1414
01:32:13,130 --> 01:32:17,069
November 7, we would

1415
01:32:17,069 --> 01:32:20,889
celebrate our 75th
wedding anniversary.

1416
01:32:21,250 --> 01:32:25,589
So your wife is someone that you

1417
01:32:25,589 --> 01:32:30,209
met in college or right at[needs confirmation]
when did you meet your wife?

1418
01:32:30,209 --> 01:32:37,149
Well, I met my wife
at an early age,

1419
01:32:37,149 --> 01:32:40,409
but I can tell you it
was not love at first 

1420
01:32:40,409 --> 01:32:46,089
sight because I was
12, she was 7.

1421
01:32:46,130 --> 01:32:51,279
So it took some years
before we got married.

1422
01:32:51,279 --> 01:32:54,119
She was 19 at the time.

1423
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:59,039
And what's her name?

1424
01:32:59,039 --> 01:33:03,199
Betty Ann.I would tell you,

1425
01:33:03,199 --> 01:33:04,719
mentioned one quick thing.

1426
01:33:04,719 --> 01:33:05,479
Yeah.

1427
01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:10,499
In combat in a bombed out area,

1428
01:33:10,499 --> 01:33:12,179
a lot of rubble and stuff,

1429
01:33:12,179 --> 01:33:17,199
I stumbled on something. And
I looked down to see what it

1430
01:33:17,199 --> 01:33:20,659
was and what it

1431
01:33:20,659 --> 01:33:25,599
turned out to be was an
artillery shell casing.

1432
01:33:25,599 --> 01:33:31,044
I picked it up, it was
dirty, dusty, muddy.

1433
01:33:31,044 --> 01:33:33,649
And since I was in
the artillery and I

1434
01:33:33,649 --> 01:33:36,529
knew it was artillery shell
casing, I took it with me.

1435
01:33:36,529 --> 01:33:39,389
I cleaned it up and

1436
01:33:39,389 --> 01:33:43,509
realized it was a
solid brass shell

1437
01:33:43,509 --> 01:33:45,549
casing from the First world war,

1438
01:33:45,549 --> 01:33:53,129
a French 75 mm. My
mother had gotten

1439
01:33:53,129 --> 01:33:56,629
as a wedding present a solid
brass lamp tape

1440
01:33:56,629 --> 01:34:00,489
made somewhere in
Europe. And I said,

1441
01:34:00,489 --> 01:34:03,789
boy, this could be
used as a flower vase with

1442
01:34:03,789 --> 01:34:07,890
great brass lamptape.

1443
01:34:07,890 --> 01:34:12,849
So I boxed it up and I shipped
it home to my mother.

1444
01:34:12,849 --> 01:34:16,949
When we got married, my mother
gave it to my wife and said,

1445
01:34:16,949 --> 01:34:19,569
this really belongs to you.

1446
01:34:19,650 --> 01:34:25,009
It has all kind of artwork,

1447
01:34:25,009 --> 01:34:29,369
an oriental woman,
a couple of birds,

1448
01:34:29,369 --> 01:34:38,049
some roses in two initials, B.A.

1449
01:34:38,049 --> 01:34:44,649
My wife's name is Betty Ann.
It was meant for me to find it.

1450
01:34:44,649 --> 01:34:50,009
I had to go on Google
to find the story of

1451
01:34:50,490 --> 01:34:53,169
what this, what is this thing about?

1452
01:34:53,169 --> 01:34:57,329
Because my, one of my
grandson's teacher

1453
01:34:57,329 --> 01:34:59,669
told me they were getting
ready to study World War Two,

1454
01:34:59,669 --> 01:35:01,850
so he told the teacher
his grandfather

1455
01:35:01,850 --> 01:35:04,889
was in World War two
and lives in the area.

1456
01:35:04,889 --> 01:35:06,709
Of course, I got
a phone call when

1457
01:35:06,709 --> 01:35:08,569
I come and talk to the kids.

1458
01:35:08,569 --> 01:35:10,609
So my grandson says, Papa,

1459
01:35:10,609 --> 01:35:13,269
you have to take
that shell case and

1460
01:35:13,269 --> 01:35:16,629
show it to the kids, the
students. Which I did.

1461
01:35:16,629 --> 01:35:18,629
So I went on Google,

1462
01:35:18,629 --> 01:35:23,549
put in French 75
millimeters shell case.

1463
01:35:23,549 --> 01:35:27,709
I got the story
called trench art.

1464
01:35:28,150 --> 01:35:32,969
And it said that First World
War was trench warfare.

1465
01:35:32,969 --> 01:35:35,109
Some of the trenches had,

1466
01:35:35,109 --> 01:35:40,949
during quiet periods, they
had artisans in the trench,

1467
01:35:40,949 --> 01:35:43,529
some of them had crude tools.

1468
01:35:43,529 --> 01:35:46,009
They took these
empty shell cases

1469
01:35:46,009 --> 01:35:47,889
which they were plentiful around [needs confirmation], and

1470
01:35:47,889 --> 01:35:51,109
put different works of art.

1471
01:35:51,430 --> 01:35:55,049
And that was the story. Told
me the whole story.

1472
01:35:55,049 --> 01:35:57,249
That's amazing. So after this,

1473
01:35:57,249 --> 01:35:59,249
we actually have an exhibit on

1474
01:35:59,249 --> 01:36:01,909
the other side about
World War One,

1475
01:36:01,909 --> 01:36:04,509
and we have some
trench art on display.

1476
01:36:04,509 --> 01:36:06,669
So if you're interested
in seeing it on

1477
01:36:06,669 --> 01:36:09,229
your way out, we can
show that to you.

1478
01:36:09,229 --> 01:36:13,009
So my last couple
questions, the first is,

1479
01:36:13,009 --> 01:36:15,849
why do you think
it's important for

1480
01:36:15,849 --> 01:36:20,310
students to learn about World
War Two and the Holocaust?

1481
01:36:20,310 --> 01:36:22,309
Well, because there's a lot

1482
01:36:22,309 --> 01:36:26,829
of history there
that has to be told.

1483
01:36:26,829 --> 01:36:34,309
I mean, every year,
twice a year,

1484
01:36:34,590 --> 01:36:37,889
history teacher at
Roswell High School used

1485
01:36:37,889 --> 01:36:40,809
to originally invited
me and my brother.

1486
01:36:40,809 --> 01:36:43,049
Then when he became too ill,

1487
01:36:43,049 --> 01:36:47,829
I was solo. Last year

1488
01:36:47,829 --> 01:36:50,249
suddenly I didn't hear from,

1489
01:36:50,249 --> 01:36:54,009
couldn't understand
his cell phone

1490
01:36:54,009 --> 01:36:57,709
was working, no answer.

1491
01:36:59,030 --> 01:37:01,829
I was able to contact
the school and

1492
01:37:01,829 --> 01:37:04,849
find out he had died.

1493
01:37:04,849 --> 01:37:06,969
Maybe from Covid, I don't know,

1494
01:37:06,969 --> 01:37:08,589
because he wasn't that old.

1495
01:37:08,589 --> 01:37:11,629
Probably somewhere in his '40s.

1496
01:37:11,910 --> 01:37:16,089
So my mission when
I'm getting ready to

1497
01:37:16,089 --> 01:37:20,449
do is to contact Roswell 
high school again 

1498
01:37:20,449 --> 01:37:24,569
to see if they have

1499
01:37:24,569 --> 01:37:26,429
a new history teacher
that's going to

1500
01:37:26,429 --> 01:37:28,829
teach course in World War Two.

1501
01:37:28,829 --> 01:37:33,009
So if there are, I'll go there and
talk to the students again.

1502
01:37:33,009 --> 01:37:36,429
With this other material that I have,

1503
01:37:36,429 --> 01:37:37,989
I'm also going to contact

1504
01:37:37,989 --> 01:37:41,829
Woody High School as
the same question [needs confirmation].

1505
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:46,139
So what do you think that
students should take

1506
01:37:46,139 --> 01:37:49,139
away specifically
from your story,

1507
01:37:49,139 --> 01:37:51,439
from your family
story? What lessons?

1508
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:54,279
Well, I can answer that based on

1509
01:37:54,279 --> 01:37:58,439
the questions I normally get
from high school students.

1510
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:02,959
And I spoke to stu—
more recently,

1511
01:38:02,959 --> 01:38:05,419
I spoke to students at St.

1512
01:38:05,419 --> 01:38:08,519
Pious X Catholic High School,

1513
01:38:08,519 --> 01:38:13,039
also Marist Catholic
High School.

1514
01:38:13,039 --> 01:38:17,179
And sometimes I get
the same questions

1515
01:38:17,179 --> 01:38:21,959
that I've gotten from the
public high school,

1516
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:25,839
so I know how to
answer the questions.

1517
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:33,819
And as my oldest daughter said,

1518
01:38:33,819 --> 01:38:39,219
when she took me to
St. Pious High School,

1519
01:38:39,219 --> 01:38:43,919
the students were all ears.

1520
01:38:43,919 --> 01:38:50,299
I mean, you could hear a
pin drop and nobody moved.

1521
01:38:50,299 --> 01:38:52,099
And I find

1522
01:38:52,099 --> 01:38:56,359
the same thing when I spoke
to the students in public highschools.

1523
01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:00,360
They were fairly interested.

1524
01:39:00,360 --> 01:39:04,119
And of course the questions
they asked were also,

1525
01:39:04,119 --> 01:39:10,199
you know good questions.
Because as I told them

1526
01:39:10,199 --> 01:39:14,939
my combat experience, or
my experience going into

1527
01:39:14,939 --> 01:39:18,919
the Army 18 years old

1528
01:39:18,919 --> 01:39:22,119
is the same age as
some of them are.

1529
01:39:22,120 --> 01:39:32,199
So when I spoke to the
students in Lamar County,

1530
01:39:32,199 --> 01:39:37,640
Georgia, Anchorage [needs confirmation], Georgia,
similar situation.

1531
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,899
They're very attentive, 
very interested.

1532
01:39:43,899 --> 01:39:46,399
What do they want
to know from you?

1533
01:39:46,399 --> 01:39:49,739
What kind of what questions do
they ask questions? Kind of questions? Yeah.

1534
01:39:49,739 --> 01:39:53,999
Number one, how did you
feel going into the army?

1535
01:39:53,999 --> 01:39:57,759
Number two, how did
you feel going into

1536
01:39:57,759 --> 01:40:02,380
Dachau?That pretty much most
of the questions.

1537
01:40:02,380 --> 01:40:06,159
Yeah. I mean ones
that were uniform.

1538
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:11,399
Where did you think we
saw dead bodies in Dachau?

1539
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:17,599
The answer is simple. It wasn't

1540
01:40:17,599 --> 01:40:21,919
the first time we
saw it,  dead bodies. It 

1541
01:40:21,919 --> 01:40:28,339
was the first time you
see, there was German soldiers on

1542
01:40:28,339 --> 01:40:30,619
the sides of the road
or in the roads or

1543
01:40:30,619 --> 01:40:35,369
whatever. Dead hor a
lot, of dead horses.

1544
01:40:37,330 --> 01:40:41,529
It was a weird shock. After that,

1545
01:40:41,529 --> 01:40:45,749
It's repetitive. So you
never get over it.

1546
01:40:45,749 --> 01:40:48,809
But the initial shock
by the time we got to 

1547
01:40:48,809 --> 01:40:54,570
Dachau, you know it's like last
week's newspaper.

1548
01:40:56,250 --> 01:40:59,549
So is there anything
that I haven't

1549
01:40:59,549 --> 01:41:03,089
asked you about that you'd
like to share with us today?

1550
01:41:03,089 --> 01:41:06,689
Anything else you want
to share with us today?

1551
01:41:06,689 --> 01:41:08,029
Anything else?

1552
01:41:08,029 --> 01:41:09,109
Yes.

1553
01:41:09,109 --> 01:41:13,909
Well, I can tell

1554
01:41:13,909 --> 01:41:21,410
you when we were in
Austria occupation [needs confirmation]

1555
01:41:22,290 --> 01:41:26,090
we lived in an old monastery.

1556
01:41:26,570 --> 01:41:30,289
They gave us what
they called details.

1557
01:41:30,289 --> 01:41:34,529
The first detail we had close

1558
01:41:34,529 --> 01:41:39,230
by was a former
Austrian stockade.

1559
01:41:39,230 --> 01:41:46,830
The US military filled it up
with captured SS officers.

1560
01:41:46,830 --> 01:41:51,690
We had to perform guard
duty around that stockade.

1561
01:41:51,690 --> 01:42:00,740
24x7.s Snow days in January,

1562
01:42:00,740 --> 01:42:04,060
December, January of 45,

1563
01:42:04,060 --> 01:42:07,079
even November snow days.

1564
01:42:07,079 --> 01:42:10,119
We had to tromp around
in that snow, walk around, in

1565
01:42:10,119 --> 01:42:13,659
that snow 4 hours,

1566
01:42:13,659 --> 01:42:16,679
2 hours on and 4 hours off,

1567
01:42:16,679 --> 01:42:19,899
before you had to go
back another 2 hours.

1568
01:42:19,899 --> 01:42:22,540
Not happy soldiers.

1569
01:42:22,540 --> 01:42:28,080
Then each morning we would
take the German soldiers,

1570
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:32,659
the German SS officers, put
them in trucks,

1571
01:42:32,659 --> 01:42:35,420
take them up into
the mountainsides,

1572
01:42:35,420 --> 01:42:40,699
chop down trees, cut
up the trees for firewood,

1573
01:42:41,090 --> 01:42:45,890
take the firewood down
into Salzburg.

1574
01:42:45,890 --> 01:42:48,329
First hand it out to

1575
01:42:48,329 --> 01:42:53,269
the bakers to fire up the
stores to bake bread.

1576
01:42:53,269 --> 01:42:55,529
Bread for number one, the US.

1577
01:42:55,529 --> 01:42:59,710
military. Number two
for the prisoners.

1578
01:42:59,710 --> 01:43:02,690
Number three, for civilians.

1579
01:43:02,810 --> 01:43:06,030
That was every day occurrence.

1580
01:43:06,030 --> 01:43:12,569
Every day, we had our C rations
and K rations for lunch.

1581
01:43:12,569 --> 01:43:14,969
They brought for the prisoners

1582
01:43:14,969 --> 01:43:18,089
the easiest thing
for them to prepare,

1583
01:43:18,210 --> 01:43:26,629
which was like a liquid soup,
supposedly chicken soup,

1584
01:43:26,629 --> 01:43:30,229
and what the Germans,

1585
01:43:30,229 --> 01:43:35,009
what we call today
Matzo ball soup,

1586
01:43:35,009 --> 01:43:40,009
similar but different
because all they had was

1587
01:43:40,009 --> 01:43:42,529
some seasoning with
flour to make

1588
01:43:42,529 --> 01:43:46,809
these round balls and the soup

1589
01:43:46,809 --> 01:43:49,949
 tasted like
they may have dipped a

1590
01:43:49,949 --> 01:43:53,889
chicken in it for 2
seconds and pulled it out.

1591
01:43:53,889 --> 01:43:58,144
But that's what the prisoners
had every day for lunch. So

1592
01:43:58,144 --> 01:44:01,699
that was one experience
that we had.

1593
01:44:01,699 --> 01:44:04,659
I had a personal detail with

1594
01:44:04,659 --> 01:44:08,699
another soldier to
go to Genoa, Italy.

1595
01:44:08,699 --> 01:44:11,079
We were transported to Genoa,

1596
01:44:11,079 --> 01:44:16,459
Italy where the first thing
we saw when we got there,

1597
01:44:16,459 --> 01:44:22,199
was a coal ship from
America bringing cold.

1598
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:29,019
We I found, when we found him and I found out
it was an American ship,

1599
01:44:29,019 --> 01:44:35,679
we went aboard. And we were
invited to remain for dinner.

1600
01:44:35,679 --> 01:44:40,519
We had dinner aboard that
American ship, which was nice.

1601
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:44,939
Then the next morning,

1602
01:44:44,939 --> 01:44:49,939
a grain ship arrived either
from Canada or the US,

1603
01:44:49,939 --> 01:44:54,039
and that was our, the
reason we were there.

1604
01:44:54,360 --> 01:45:02,059
They pumped the grain
into these railroad cars,

1605
01:45:02,059 --> 01:45:06,999
hopper cars. In the
middle of that train,

1606
01:45:06,999 --> 01:45:10,539
they had one boxcar. That

1607
01:45:10,539 --> 01:45:14,479
was our home for the
trip from general,

1608
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:17,439
through the Brenner Pass,

1609
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:20,479
first the Po Valley in Italy,

1610
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:22,279
and then the Brenner Pass

1611
01:45:22,279 --> 01:45:26,280
into Salzburg Austria

1612
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:30,739
and we were to ride [needs confirmation] shotgun
on that train to make

1613
01:45:30,739 --> 01:45:35,819
sure it got back to Salzburg okay.

1614
01:45:35,819 --> 01:45:40,660
And the grain was
delivered in Salzburg,

1615
01:45:40,660 --> 01:45:45,679
there again, to be delivered
to bakers to bake bread.

1616
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,319
Everything went fine.

1617
01:45:50,319 --> 01:45:54,379
We got a first look at
the Po Valley. Train

1618
01:45:54,379 --> 01:45:56,039
I remember, stopped one time

1619
01:45:56,039 --> 01:45:58,559
we had our C rations
and K rations.

1620
01:45:58,559 --> 01:46:00,039
We had two folding

1621
01:46:00,039 --> 01:46:03,879
cots. I  took a picture
of the inside of it.

1622
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:09,499
And that was our
home for that trip.

1623
01:46:09,499 --> 01:46:13,119
But one time the train
stopped to get more

1624
01:46:13,119 --> 01:46:20,119
cold and we noticed a
lot of tomato plants.

1625
01:46:20,119 --> 01:46:23,239
So the tomatoes looked ripe,

1626
01:46:23,239 --> 01:46:26,499
so him and I jumped
off the train and

1627
01:46:26,499 --> 01:46:30,660
we picked the ripest tomatoes.

1628
01:46:30,660 --> 01:46:33,619
So we had tomatoes to eat with

1629
01:46:33,619 --> 01:46:39,059
our C rations which added
made it better to eat.

1630
01:46:39,059 --> 01:46:42,559
I remember that. I took
pictures through

1631
01:46:42,559 --> 01:46:49,559
the Brenner Pass, and I had right when
I developed the pictures [needs confirmation].

1632
01:46:49,559 --> 01:46:51,599
This is pictures
of the Brenner Pass

1633
01:46:51,599 --> 01:46:54,960
because you know, it's just like
a mountainside.

1634
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:57,679
But I remember that very well.

1635
01:46:57,679 --> 01:47:00,739
Another, if we have
another few minutes? Sure.

1636
01:47:00,739 --> 01:47:03,999
Another thing that I
remember very well.

1637
01:47:03,999 --> 01:47:07,199
We used to go to Salisbury.

1638
01:47:07,199 --> 01:47:10,679
They would take us to a
movie one night a week.

1639
01:47:10,679 --> 01:47:13,919
Now, the civilians learned

1640
01:47:13,919 --> 01:47:17,299
quickly what the soldiers

1641
01:47:17,299 --> 01:47:21,819
do when they come out
of a movie theater.

1642
01:47:21,940 --> 01:47:24,959
Those that smokes light up

1643
01:47:24,959 --> 01:47:30,119
a cigarette. The soldiers that

1644
01:47:30,119 --> 01:47:34,619
smoked cigarettes as I said
was a nickel a pack.

1645
01:47:35,100 --> 01:47:37,819
Some of them didn't take

1646
01:47:37,819 --> 01:47:41,739
that many puffs, throw it down.

1647
01:47:42,940 --> 01:47:46,979
The civilians would
be in groups of

1648
01:47:46,979 --> 01:47:51,899
two or three civilians
following all the soldiers.

1649
01:47:51,899 --> 01:47:54,299
As soon as they would, a soldier

1650
01:47:54,299 --> 01:47:56,139
would throw a
cigarette butt down,

1651
01:47:56,139 --> 01:48:01,339
the civilians would
leap on them like dogs,

1652
01:48:01,660 --> 01:48:04,659
to grab that cigarette butt,

1653
01:48:04,659 --> 01:48:08,839
the cigarette butts to take the

1654
01:48:08,839 --> 01:48:12,999
remaining tobacco
for two reasons.

1655
01:48:12,999 --> 01:48:15,499
Number one, to make,

1656
01:48:15,499 --> 01:48:20,059
they had paper to make cigarettes
for their personal use,

1657
01:48:20,059 --> 01:48:23,179
to make cigarettes to barter.

1658
01:48:23,660 --> 01:48:27,339
But to me, especially

1659
01:48:27,339 --> 01:48:31,220
since I was, brother
and I were not smokers,

1660
01:48:31,220 --> 01:48:35,179
it was so degrading to watch

1661
01:48:35,179 --> 01:48:41,640
those civilians fight like
dogs to capture that tobacco.

1662
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:47,040
Very degrading to see human
beings in that situation. Yeah.

1663
01:48:47,040 --> 01:48:57,900
I remember that very well. Yeah,
that post war recovering economy

1664
01:48:57,900 --> 01:49:00,079
I know there was a lot of

1665
01:49:00,079 --> 01:49:05,759
barter going on because the
money hadn't recovered yet.

1666
01:49:05,759 --> 01:49:07,800
Yeah, that's fascinating.

1667
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:09,559
Well, thank you so much for

1668
01:49:09,559 --> 01:49:11,719
sharing all of your
stories with us

1669
01:49:11,719 --> 01:49:13,299
today and for your time

1670
01:49:13,299 --> 01:49:15,899
and for becoming a part
of our Legacy series.

1671
01:49:15,899 --> 01:49:19,339
We really appreciate
it. Thank you so much.