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Today is December 6,

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2023 and my name
is Adina Langer.

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I am a Curator and

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oral historian at the
Museum of History

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and Holocaust Education at

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Kennesaw State
University in Georgia.

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And I'm here today at the
home of Melvin Price who will

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share his memories of serving in

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the Army Air Corps
during World War Two.

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So can we please start? Can
you state your full name?

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My name is Melvin Price. And

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normally I go by the name of Mel,

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which I prefer, and that is
what I'm really known as.

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All right, so Mel. And do you
agree to this interview?

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Yes, I totally agree to it.

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The words that I will tell you
are strictly my own words.

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Absolutely. Thank you. Can you

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please tell me when and
where you were born?

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I was born January 23, 1926,

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which means that I'm
97 years old and

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I'm 50 days away from
being 98 years old.

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I was born in Dunkirk, New York,

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which is on the
shoreline of Lake Erie.

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It's actually about
halfway between Erie,

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Pennsylvania and
Buffalo, New York.

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Dunkirk has a great harbor and

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it accommodated many things
because of the harbor.

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And what was your neighborhood
like where you grew up?

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Our neighborhood was
strictly blue collar.

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There, there was just about
everybody had families and,

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there were plenty
of places to work.

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Dunkirk at the time was
a population of 23,000

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and there were
mainly industrial.

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The largest one was the
American Locomotive Company,

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and then there was
also Van Raalte, which

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manufactured leather
women's gloves of

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high quality and also underwear.

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And then there was
a canning factory,

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also a plant that
manufactured shovels,

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and also a smaller one
that manufactured valves.

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And there was also
another steel plant

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in Dunkirk of a smaller size,

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but they specialize
in special steel.

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And what were your
parents names?

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My father's name was Martin,

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my mother's name was Helen.

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What kind of work did they do?

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What's that again?

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What kind of work did they do?

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Oh! My father worked at the
American Locomotive Company.

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And this company manufactured

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steam locomotives from the
very beginning until the end.

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And and and once it was completed,

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it was sent out
to the railroads.

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My father's job was in
charge of a pattern shop.

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The way this is, there

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were pattern makers
which would make

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wooden simulations of what

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was needed into a metallic
state for an engine.

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and these pattern makers would

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manufacture this and
also make core boxes,

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which would be the interior,

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rather than have a solid object.

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They would send
these patterns out to

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different foundries to be

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cast or simulated
in other forms.

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And then the patterns
would be in storage,

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it would be a huge building.

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And my father was in charge of
all of the storage and it was

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amazing how he could recall

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exactly where one particular
pattern was called for. And

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it had an elevator
and they would

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find a pattern and ship it to

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the foundry for manufacturing.

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And and my mother, she was a homemaker,

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which was typical in the times,

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in the times we're talking
about in the 1930s.

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Did you have any siblings?

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Yes, I did. I had

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an older brother and
I was a middle child,

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and I had a sister.

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My brother did suffer cancer
and died at an early age,

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and I recently lost my sister

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just about a year
and a half ago.

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What were their names?

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My brother's name was Marshall

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and my sister's
name was Mildred.

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It sounds like your
family liked the letter M.

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It it seems as though
we were all M.P.,

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Martin Price. Yeah. And
all the way down the line.

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I don't know if
that's a coincidence

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or if it's just
something that happened. Yeah.

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My brother was
drafted, by the way,

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and and he served just
about six months in

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the field artillery and

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was stationed at Fort
Leonard Wood, Missouri.

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And for some unknown reason

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that I don't really know,

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he got a medical discharge
and he was sent back home.

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So before we get into the
war, I want to go back.

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Do you have a sense for how

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the Great Depression had

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impacted your family
or your community?

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The impression—.

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The Depression. So the
stock market crash and Yes.

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Yeah. The Depression had

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a devastating effect
on all of the families

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because most of the workers were

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dependent on
manufacturing products.

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And families really struggled.

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The families were too
proud to apply for

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welfare. And they tried
to do this on their own.

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My father, in fact, my

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our family is one
of the lucky ones

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because he was able to work

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possibly about
three days a week.

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But that's not the
case of my wife, Marie.

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From now on, if I
refer to my wife,

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I will use the name Marie.

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Okay. Well, well she did tell
me about her family.

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She had a sister
and and three brothers,

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and her father was laid off.

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He also worked in the
American Locomotive Company.

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And she told me many

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times that they had
really nothing to eat.

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But the older brother
was a carpenter,

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and he was able to find

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various jobs and make enough
money to support the family.

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And that really stuck with her.

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In fact, it carried
on into our marriage

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and because of the hardship
at her teen years,

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she was very careful on
how we spent our money. And

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thankful for her that I am
in a position I am today.

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Do you remember dealing
with rationing,

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ration coupons or
things like that?

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Yes. Rationing started
early and the rationing

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was, people that own cars would

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get a ration stamp of
five gallons per week.

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And of course, there
was a black market

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also where there
were counterfeit,

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just the way it is today.

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But, but, but for the most part

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there was quite a
bit of honesty

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and as far as other products go,

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I believe that maybe once
a month you would get

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a coupon for sugar and butter
and a few other items,

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but it wasn't very much.

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It was more or less basic.

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Were you, was your family fond of
President Roosevelt?

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It wasn't a question I had

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previously asked,
but I'm curious,

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given the depression
and the neighborhood,

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what were, were they fond of
President Roosevelt?

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I don't know about the
neighborhood, but,

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but I really think
that our country is

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really lucky and blessed

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that Roosevelt was
our president.

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Apparently others did too,
because I believe

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he was elected for a third term,

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which is unprecedented
because it is not the case anymore.

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But he did have,

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even though he was an invalid,

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he did do many things
like meeting with

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partnership with, with other
countries during

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the war of course our side was the

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Axis.

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Yeah, so and Yeah, he he did a
lot with trying to

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fix the depression too. I had

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the highest respect for
for Mr. Roosevelt.

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So going back to your family,

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was religion important
to your family?

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Religion was a very

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important. It was under the
leadership of my father.

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And I'm a Roman Catholic.

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And it was mandatory that
we attend Sunday mass.

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We would walk to church
about five or six blocks,

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and for some reason,

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we always went about
a half hour early.

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And we would sit in the pews,

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the kids would go in first.

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My mother and my father
would sit on the aisle.

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And as soon as we got seated,

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bear in mind this was a half
hour before mass started,

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he had a little
black prayer book

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and he would pray all the time,

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and at the time it

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didn't really seem to
have any bearing on me,

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but, but then he did tell
the story, of course,

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my father is a World
War One veteran

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and he more or

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less kind of kept things
to himself of what he did,

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but one story that he did tell
was that they were over in

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France and they were

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sitting on a bench
eating their chow.

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He was there with eight others,

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and a German shell came in and

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exploded nearby and
killed all eight of them,

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and he was the sole survivor.

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So I kind of think probably a divine
providence played a major part.

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And it was so strongly
embedded in his mind

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that somebody was
looking on after him.

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But but I didn't realize
this until later on in

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the years. That was the most
beautiful part of my life.

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We had great friends and
in the '30s

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we had to improvise things.

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And as I mentioned before,

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Dunkirk is on the
shore of Lake Erie,

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and our house was

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only a few houses away
from the shoreline.

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The most important
thing was swimming.

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And we would go

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as much as possible throughout

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00:14:08,449 --> 00:14:10,929
the day to swim
almost every day,

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00:14:10,929 --> 00:14:16,670
and up north, the water
temperature never reach higher

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00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:22,739
than 66 degrees and it
was okay. The first dive

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00:14:22,739 --> 00:14:26,660
it was the worst. But
our main objective

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00:14:26,660 --> 00:14:31,539
was what we probably call a table rock.

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It was quite a distance
from shore and

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those that could swim would

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swim out and try to find the rock.

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00:14:41,539 --> 00:14:43,720
And once the rock
was found, well,

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then everybody came to the rock, and it

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00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,899
only had about a foot of
water over the top of it.

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00:14:49,899 --> 00:14:52,260
But some of those

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00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:55,919
that could not swim
that great distance,

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00:14:55,919 --> 00:14:58,020
there was another smaller rock,

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which we call a
secondary rock rock,

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00:15:02,059 --> 00:15:06,839
and those that weren't
so proficient in

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00:15:06,839 --> 00:15:08,839
swimming would swim for

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00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:12,359
that rock and then take a
break and then continue on.

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But but that was a daily
occurrence for us.

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00:15:16,859 --> 00:15:23,560
And other things that we did
if we were not swimming,

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the way the shoreline
is in in Dunkirk,

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00:15:29,999 --> 00:15:35,860
there's a shale at the
bottom of the water and

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00:15:35,860 --> 00:15:38,619
it extends at a great distance.

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And what we would do is to wade out

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probably about 6 inches of water,

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and we would peel
off a bit of shale,

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00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:50,600
trying to get as
big as possible,

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probably like the size 
of dinner plate or not.

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00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:55,779
And then what we
do is go back on

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00:15:55,779 --> 00:15:58,459
shore and then we
would skim it out.

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00:15:58,459 --> 00:16:01,860
And I'm sure that you've
seen all of this before,

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00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:04,474
but we used to do
the shale thing.

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00:16:04,474 --> 00:16:14,209
Well, by being exposed day
after day into the sun,

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00:16:14,209 --> 00:16:17,049
we used to get sunburned. And

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00:16:17,049 --> 00:16:20,089
after about three days,

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00:16:20,089 --> 00:16:22,869
our skin would start to peel.

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00:16:22,869 --> 00:16:26,889
And then we'd have to
take a break or two, a day or

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00:16:26,889 --> 00:16:31,809
two until our skin would
thoroughly peel off.

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00:16:31,809 --> 00:16:35,070
And then what we would
do is repeat it.

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Do the same thing again.

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00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:42,470
But ofcourse today we know that
it's a cause of cancer.

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00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:46,150
But at the time
cancer was unknown.

255
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:53,130
And in the evening
we would always

256
00:16:53,130 --> 00:17:01,450
go to the shoreline. And like every shoreline,
there's the driftwood

257
00:17:01,450 --> 00:17:07,389
and what we do is 
build a little fire.

258
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:15,550
And usually on many occasions, we would hunt

259
00:17:15,550 --> 00:17:19,629
out one particular type of wood.

260
00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:24,030
And we would break it in a half,

261
00:17:24,030 --> 00:17:27,489
and make it about the
length of a cigarette.

262
00:17:27,489 --> 00:17:30,759
And what we would
do we would blow in it.

263
00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,339
And if we could actually
blow through it,

264
00:17:33,339 --> 00:17:36,260
well then what we would
do is put the tip into

265
00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:39,760
the fire and we would
take a couple puffs.

266
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,419
But it was not a big
deal at all to do that.

267
00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:49,079
Just I haven't got a clue
as to why we did that,

268
00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:52,660
but, but I've never been
a smoker, by the way.

269
00:17:52,660 --> 00:17:58,220
I've never smoked a
cigarette at all in my life.

270
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,139
Another very important thing is

271
00:18:02,139 --> 00:18:04,600
that once we had the fire going,

272
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,440
what each one of us
would do would get

273
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,659
a potato. And we would
take it to the fire,

274
00:18:14,659 --> 00:18:17,060
and when the fire died
down into embers,

275
00:18:17,060 --> 00:18:19,600
we would toss in the potato.

276
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,719
And when it turned a real black,

277
00:18:23,719 --> 00:18:27,980
well then we would break
it open and eat it. Well

278
00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:30,679
yeah, a potato sounds like

279
00:18:30,679 --> 00:18:33,079
a simple thing, but it was not

280
00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:38,659
so. Many of my friends
would want to do this,

281
00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:40,680
but they had no potato.

282
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,540
So I would ask my mother,

283
00:18:43,540 --> 00:18:49,800
is there any chance that we
could give him a potato? Him a potato?

284
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,499
She always did that.

285
00:18:52,499 --> 00:18:55,970
Everybody had a potato.

286
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:57,530
That's wonderful.

287
00:18:57,530 --> 00:19:00,350
In the winter time, there's

288
00:19:00,350 --> 00:19:02,169
no swimming and a little bit too

289
00:19:02,169 --> 00:19:07,970
cold to do to do this fire thing, 

290
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:13,530
but Lake Erie is the
shallowest lake of them all,

291
00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:19,130
and it freezes quickly. Well
in the spring time

292
00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:26,129
Once the ice is breaking off and 
and we got a clear water,

293
00:19:26,129 --> 00:19:29,669
what we would do is to
go to the shoreline, and 

294
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:39,959
look for iceberg, a round
piece of frozen ice,

295
00:19:39,959 --> 00:19:42,639
probably eight to ten
feet in diameter,

296
00:19:42,639 --> 00:19:44,760
and we would have sticks.

297
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,979
And what we would
do is to jump on

298
00:19:46,979 --> 00:19:53,139
these icebergs and pull
ourselves away into deep water.

299
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,379
And that was great fun to do that.

300
00:19:57,379 --> 00:20:00,060
It's funny, I was
just going to ask

301
00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:02,060
you about whether the lake

302
00:20:02,060 --> 00:20:03,799
froze and if you remembered it.

303
00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:06,400
Did you ever walk out
on the frozen lake?

304
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,630
Yes, we did. In fact,

305
00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:15,160
I look back and
see and think, wow,

306
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,759
we shouldn't have
done that as kids,

307
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:21,180
but what we would do
is to go out there

308
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:25,920
and and Dunkirk has a break wall,

309
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,339
and the object was to

310
00:20:29,339 --> 00:20:33,200
go from the shoreline
to the break wall.

311
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,159
Well near the break wall,

312
00:20:36,159 --> 00:20:38,800
we're walking on the ice and 

313
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:46,380
the ice is waving back and forth
and we called it rubber ice.

314
00:20:46,380 --> 00:20:48,719
But I look back now thinking

315
00:20:48,719 --> 00:20:52,169
that if we ever fell through,

316
00:20:52,169 --> 00:20:56,820
it would be impossible
to get back.

317
00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:59,879
But it was only spots in

318
00:20:59,879 --> 00:21:04,799
the ice that was so

319
00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:10,959
thin was usually almost
like green and color.

320
00:21:10,959 --> 00:21:14,399
So we knew what to expect,

321
00:21:14,399 --> 00:21:17,359
but for some reason
we would like to go

322
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,240
on that for a short distance
and then scoot back.

323
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,859
Pretty daring kids.

324
00:21:24,859 --> 00:21:34,020
So do you have any early
memories of aviation? Of flying.

325
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:39,750
I always did. When
I was about 15,

326
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:43,949
I I used to see
these planes flying

327
00:21:43,949 --> 00:21:47,929
around and I was

328
00:21:47,929 --> 00:21:50,249
rather fascinated by that and I
was thinking, you know,

329
00:21:50,249 --> 00:21:56,650
I want to do that some day.
And also occasionally there were 

330
00:21:56,650 --> 00:22:00,449
blimp that came across the area.

331
00:22:00,449 --> 00:22:04,350
And I have no idea
what the blimps were,

332
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:07,789
but they were based
in Akron, Ohio.

333
00:22:07,910 --> 00:22:15,669
And since I had this desire to,

334
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:20,190
to try to fly, well,

335
00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:21,870
I peddled papers by the way,

336
00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:26,190
and probably made $0.50 a week.

337
00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:28,010
And we did get an allowance,

338
00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:29,749
by the way, in the family.

339
00:22:29,749 --> 00:22:33,030
Our allowance was $0.05 a week,

340
00:22:33,030 --> 00:22:35,649
and sometimes it was missed.

341
00:22:35,649 --> 00:22:42,889
But there was a plane that
was going to come to Dunkirk.

342
00:22:42,889 --> 00:22:45,989
It's a Ford Tri motor.

343
00:22:45,989 --> 00:22:48,549
It's a German type of plane, and

344
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:53,119
it was going to offer
rides and as soon as

345
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,620
I heard that well then that's,I'm
going to do this thing here.

346
00:22:57,620 --> 00:23:02,539
Well, it was very capable

347
00:23:02,539 --> 00:23:06,299
of taking off in

348
00:23:06,299 --> 00:23:09,679
short runways and landing
in short runways,

349
00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:13,939
and what this was was
just a grassy strip,

350
00:23:13,939 --> 00:23:18,859
but the length was enough to
make the aircraft airborne.

351
00:23:18,859 --> 00:23:27,780
Well, the price was
$0.50 and but was big money.

352
00:23:27,780 --> 00:23:29,660
But I had the money,

353
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:32,220
so I went for a ride and

354
00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:35,379
it lasted probably
about 15 minutes.

355
00:23:35,379 --> 00:23:38,000
It would take off
circle the city,

356
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,220
go over the lake,
and then come back.

357
00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:47,439
After experiencing that, I
was still in high school,

358
00:23:47,439 --> 00:23:51,519
I heard about the
aviation cadet training.

359
00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:57,239
I figured that this is
one thing I wanted to do.

360
00:23:57,239 --> 00:24:02,319
I graduated valedictorian 
in my high school class.

361
00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:05,360
And I said I'm

362
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,060
going to have a complete
shoe in on this thing here.

363
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:14,160
Aviation cadet training
would be a pilot,

364
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,220
co pilot, flight engineer,
bombardier or navigator.

365
00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:21,779
And I felt that

366
00:24:21,779 --> 00:24:25,000
I would be able to do
all of these things.

367
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,020
But of course it didn't
turn out that way.

368
00:24:28,020 --> 00:24:32,259
So we'll get to that. Just
going back to flying,

369
00:24:32,259 --> 00:24:34,819
what did you love about flying?

370
00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:41,180
I don't know. It's just,
you're up in the air,

371
00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:44,179
you're breathing
a different type of

372
00:24:44,179 --> 00:24:48,119
air and you can see
things on the ground

373
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,259
that possibly you would

374
00:24:52,259 --> 00:24:55,320
never see. How did your
family get the news,

375
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,220
when you were growing up?

376
00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:59,839
My father had a radio.

377
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:06,019
And of course, we also
took the daily newspaper.

378
00:25:06,019 --> 00:25:10,119
But as a whole,

379
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,339
I never listened
much to the news.

380
00:25:13,339 --> 00:25:18,139
Of course, my father
did listen to the news.

381
00:25:19,340 --> 00:25:24,500
And particularly on a Sunday,

382
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:27,579
he would put on

383
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:36,230
Bishop and hear Fulton,

384
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:38,149
Sheen, I believe the name was.

385
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:39,969
He was the bishop and he

386
00:25:39,969 --> 00:25:43,990
would speak religiously
for a full hour.

387
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:48,650
And my father, all every
Sunday, would listen to him.

388
00:25:48,650 --> 00:25:54,429
But as far as kids listening in,

389
00:25:54,429 --> 00:25:58,049
we knew that there was
a conflict going on

390
00:25:58,049 --> 00:26:03,670
and it didn't really
affect us too much.

391
00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:07,710
What do you remember
about hearing about

392
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:11,110
the attack on Pearl
Harbor, specifically?

393
00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:17,209
That I thought was

394
00:26:17,209 --> 00:26:22,049
such a cowardly act on
the part of the Japanese,

395
00:26:22,049 --> 00:26:24,709
because prior to this,

396
00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:31,589
envoys, we're still in
Washington talking peace.

397
00:26:31,589 --> 00:26:35,550
And at the same time,

398
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:41,849
the Japanese were
preparing a fleet of

399
00:26:41,849 --> 00:26:45,090
aircraft carriers
and other vessels

400
00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:48,909
to do a snake attack
on Pearl Harbor.

401
00:26:48,909 --> 00:26:51,590
And that is when I really

402
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:55,110
got glued to the
radio. Especially when

403
00:26:55,110 --> 00:27:00,789
President Roosevelt said that
this day will live in infamy.

404
00:27:00,789 --> 00:27:07,869
And even today, that one
simple phrase sticks strongly.

405
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:12,769
You were in high school
at this time, right?

406
00:27:12,769 --> 00:27:13,589
Yes, I was.

407
00:27:13,589 --> 00:27:16,489
What was the name
of your high school?

408
00:27:16,489 --> 00:27:19,769
Dunker Industrial High School.

409
00:27:19,769 --> 00:27:22,390
Did your high school participate

410
00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:26,509
in any activities to
support the war effort?

411
00:27:26,509 --> 00:27:29,110
Yes, we did. Of course,

412
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:32,229
there were bond drives and

413
00:27:32,229 --> 00:27:38,069
people were asked
to buy war bonds.

414
00:27:38,069 --> 00:27:41,390
And in my senior year,

415
00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:48,870
for some reason, we
formed a drum corps

416
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:56,730
and the instructor was from
in adjacent city of Fredonia,

417
00:27:56,730 --> 00:28:00,770
which was also a music college,

418
00:28:00,770 --> 00:28:04,309
and I don't know if it was,

419
00:28:04,309 --> 00:28:05,930
I don't think it was a student,

420
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:08,010
I think it was one
of the teachers.

421
00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:10,709
She would come and

422
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,860
we formed a drum and bugle corps

423
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:18,060
Well, there was a
bond drive going

424
00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:22,559
on and what they did was to

425
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:28,419
bring in a captured two
man Japanese submarine

426
00:28:28,419 --> 00:28:30,300
and it was on the trailer.

427
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:36,999
And our job was to dress up,

428
00:28:36,999 --> 00:28:39,939
go out on the street
and then escort

429
00:28:39,939 --> 00:28:43,640
this to the square in
the city of Dunkirk.

430
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,460
And at that time,

431
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:53,659
there were speeches made
to try to increase the,

432
00:28:53,659 --> 00:28:59,939
on the participation in
people buying war bonds.

433
00:28:59,939 --> 00:29:04,100
But that probably was just
about the only one,

434
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,059
but truthfully, it was big time.

435
00:29:07,059 --> 00:29:09,460
You know, to parade
down the street, you know 

436
00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:12,419
it was probably about
maybe a two mile run.

437
00:29:12,419 --> 00:29:16,360
Wow. So you mentioned

438
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,879
your interest in
flight cadet school.

439
00:29:19,879 --> 00:29:21,240
What did you know about

440
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,939
the different branches of

441
00:29:22,939 --> 00:29:26,239
the military when you
were in high school?

442
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:34,339
I don't know. I was very familiar with
Army, Air Corps and Navy,

443
00:29:34,339 --> 00:29:39,150
and I didn't know
much about Marines.

444
00:29:39,150 --> 00:29:42,830
But, but I know one thing

445
00:29:42,830 --> 00:29:46,769
for sure is that I would never
want to go, into the Navy.

446
00:29:46,769 --> 00:29:52,829
But as far as far as Army
and Air Corps goes,

447
00:29:52,829 --> 00:29:55,389
that that was fine.

448
00:29:55,389 --> 00:30:01,530
But I would like to
tell a story here.

449
00:30:02,610 --> 00:30:07,289
Marie's, brother was in
the Corps of Engineers

450
00:30:07,289 --> 00:30:11,169
and he trained in

451
00:30:11,169 --> 00:30:15,069
the States and then his
assignment was to go to Europe.

452
00:30:15,069 --> 00:30:19,810
So they boarded a transport
plane which is a C-54,

453
00:30:19,810 --> 00:30:22,690
which holds possibly about,

454
00:30:22,690 --> 00:30:28,730
maybe 125, maybe
150 individuals.

455
00:30:28,730 --> 00:30:34,609
And when they were on the
flight to Europe,

456
00:30:34,609 --> 00:30:37,890
they passed over Newfoundland

457
00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:44,590
and the plane crashed.
And it crashed into

458
00:30:44,590 --> 00:30:50,009
the mountains and
everybody on board was

459
00:30:50,009 --> 00:30:57,009
killed except two people and
one of them was Marie's brother.

460
00:30:57,730 --> 00:31:01,109
And they were both severely injured.

461
00:31:01,109 --> 00:31:06,109
And being in a Northern area

462
00:31:06,109 --> 00:31:08,769
they needed
to start a fire.

463
00:31:08,769 --> 00:31:13,289
And I don't know if he
was a smoker or not,

464
00:31:13,289 --> 00:31:15,149
but what he did was to

465
00:31:15,149 --> 00:31:17,270
open his wallet and pull out

466
00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:19,789
a couple of dollar bills and 

467
00:31:19,789 --> 00:31:23,149
would crumble them
and start a fire.

468
00:31:23,149 --> 00:31:28,390
And and this happened at night

469
00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:30,809
and then in the daytime,

470
00:31:30,809 --> 00:31:36,930
he and his companion
crawled through

471
00:31:36,930 --> 00:31:43,270
the forest area and
finally found a roadway.

472
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:47,710
And they lay there while
until a passerby found them,

473
00:31:47,710 --> 00:31:50,930
picked them up and put
them in a hospital.

474
00:31:50,930 --> 00:31:52,949
And he was in a hospital in

475
00:31:52,949 --> 00:31:55,370
Newfoundland for a
short period of time,

476
00:31:55,370 --> 00:31:57,209
but then he was returned to

477
00:31:57,209 --> 00:31:59,510
the States and he
spent, I believe,

478
00:31:59,510 --> 00:32:04,500
about six months in a
hospital because he suffered

479
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:08,389
severe back injuries. He would

480
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:12,689
discharge, being 100% disabled.

481
00:32:12,689 --> 00:32:17,350
Wow. So, making the decision

482
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:20,229
about which branch to apply for,

483
00:32:20,229 --> 00:32:24,089
did your father give
you any advice about

484
00:32:24,089 --> 00:32:26,629
the military or about

485
00:32:26,629 --> 00:32:30,009
the possibility of going
overseas before you joined?

486
00:32:30,009 --> 00:32:32,970
No, he never really talked
about that too much,

487
00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:38,890
but his family was was
high, high in the military.

488
00:32:38,890 --> 00:32:42,149
He had brothers that also
served in the military.

489
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:48,069
And he wasn't very

490
00:32:48,069 --> 00:32:52,629
familiar with this aviation
cadet training either.

491
00:32:52,629 --> 00:32:57,469
But when when we talked about this,

492
00:32:57,910 --> 00:33:00,529
he seemed to be okay.

493
00:33:00,529 --> 00:33:05,409
Because he did seven years

494
00:33:05,409 --> 00:33:10,329
in Europe in all the
major campaigns.

495
00:33:10,329 --> 00:33:13,989
And he did his bit
for the country.

496
00:33:13,989 --> 00:33:16,570
And he thought it
was probably time

497
00:33:16,570 --> 00:33:19,730
for possibly me to
do something too.

498
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:23,110
But he was not
against this at all.

499
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:26,629
There is a possibility
that I could have been

500
00:33:26,629 --> 00:33:32,419
drafted. And of course being drafted
who knows where I would go.

501
00:33:32,419 --> 00:33:34,619
But since I had

502
00:33:34,619 --> 00:33:41,619
an opportunity as applying 
for cadet training. But

503
00:33:41,619 --> 00:33:44,419
but prior to this I

504
00:33:44,419 --> 00:33:48,459
was preparing myself
for cadet training.

505
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:55,020
The country formed
a Civil Air Patrol.

506
00:33:55,020 --> 00:33:57,219
I don't know if, if you're
aware of this or not,

507
00:33:57,219 --> 00:34:01,540
but it was civilian pilots
that would patrol

508
00:34:01,540 --> 00:34:06,100
the coastline and
their private planes

509
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:11,060
looking for possibly the enemy,

510
00:34:11,060 --> 00:34:15,620
being maybe
submarines or or whatever

511
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:21,620
and we did drill.

512
00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:25,180
It was almost like military
to civil air patrol.

513
00:34:25,180 --> 00:34:28,519
We had uniforms and
once a week we would go

514
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:33,584
to an armory and we
would drill there.

515
00:34:33,584 --> 00:34:37,990
I kind of thought well, I I got to
the rank of Corporal

516
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:40,330
and I kind of thought probably

517
00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:43,749
that this might help
me a little bit.

518
00:34:43,749 --> 00:34:49,069
But once I got into
them anything.

519
00:34:50,030 --> 00:34:53,390
So tell me what happened
with the training?

520
00:34:53,390 --> 00:34:55,950
So you mentioned that
you didn't get into

521
00:34:55,950 --> 00:35:00,390
the aviation cadet
training as you had hoped. What were,

522
00:35:01,190 --> 00:35:05,470
where did you end up
doing your training?

523
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:13,430
I was 17 when I was in this
cadet training program.

524
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:16,070
And so when I turned 18,

525
00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:20,910
a few months later, I got a
notice to report for duty.

526
00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:27,029
What I did, was to
board a train and we went

527
00:35:27,029 --> 00:35:33,750
to a military base
in Long Island.

528
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:36,509
And it was a mixture of

529
00:35:36,509 --> 00:35:42,710
just about everybody. And
in the Air Corps,

530
00:35:43,710 --> 00:35:48,170
not necessarily
people in my program 

531
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:51,869
were sent to
Beloxi, Mississippi,

532
00:35:51,869 --> 00:35:56,329
And in Beloxi, Mississippi,

533
00:35:56,329 --> 00:36:02,589
we had a mixture of
just about everybody.

534
00:36:02,589 --> 00:36:04,849
It was an Air Force Base,

535
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:08,530
Kessler Field, which is
still active today.

536
00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:15,109
And while being there, we were

537
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:21,609
tested in various 
different avenues

538
00:36:21,609 --> 00:36:25,089
and, one of them was to go into

539
00:36:25,089 --> 00:36:30,170
a pressure chamber
with an oxygen mask

540
00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:35,109
and there were instructors
also in there.

541
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:38,209
And what they would do is to

542
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:47,050
simulate an altitude
of 12,000 feet.

543
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:50,469
And if you felt like you
were passing out,

544
00:36:50,469 --> 00:36:54,409
what you had to do was to
put your oxygen mask on.

545
00:36:55,730 --> 00:36:58,450
And in a few cases,

546
00:36:58,450 --> 00:37:03,829
some of those actually passed
out and couldn't do it.

547
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:05,729
So immediately they they were

548
00:37:05,729 --> 00:37:10,649
depressurize and the instructors
would attend to them.

549
00:37:16,370 --> 00:37:22,570
And we were also tested
for Morse code

550
00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:25,609
prior to this. All
I knew was that

551
00:37:25,609 --> 00:37:28,990
Morse code was just
dots and dashes.

552
00:37:28,990 --> 00:37:31,989
I didn't have any idea as to 

553
00:37:31,989 --> 00:37:35,949
what certain dot
dashes would mean

554
00:37:35,949 --> 00:37:39,330
as far as a letter goes,

555
00:37:40,050 --> 00:37:42,909
And I didn't know that

556
00:37:42,909 --> 00:37:47,350
Sos was 3 dots 3 dashes
and then 3 dots.

557
00:37:47,350 --> 00:37:49,169
That is the only thing I knew.

558
00:37:49,169 --> 00:37:52,830
But as far as all the
alphabet, I had no idea.

559
00:37:52,830 --> 00:37:55,770
Well, we were tested,

560
00:37:55,970 --> 00:37:59,289
two signals
would be sent out

561
00:37:59,289 --> 00:38:04,730
and they were very
similar to one another.

562
00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:08,670
And you had to determine

563
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:13,530
whether they were yes
or no being similar.

564
00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:16,849
And and that lasted
quite a while.

565
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:26,329
Also we had coordination
training where there would

566
00:38:26,329 --> 00:38:32,070
be held like two sticks

567
00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:38,650
in in there on on a wire and they
would be at a distance,

568
00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:41,229
and the object was to try to get

569
00:38:41,229 --> 00:38:44,650
them so that they would
be extremely parallel.

570
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:48,489
That way you could
tell if if you

571
00:38:48,489 --> 00:38:52,549
were able to coordinate

572
00:38:52,549 --> 00:38:57,370
different objects at
different lengths.

573
00:38:57,370 --> 00:39:03,469
And we also went
on a 25 mile hike.

574
00:39:03,710 --> 00:39:06,310
We were all together.

575
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:11,709
And at the very end,

576
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:16,289
I went before a
psychiatrist. And he

577
00:39:16,289 --> 00:39:17,709
would interview me probably to

578
00:39:17,709 --> 00:39:20,169
see what kind of
individual I was.

579
00:39:20,169 --> 00:39:23,909
And that the time I've got it

580
00:39:23,909 --> 00:39:29,350
made because I feel that I've
passed all these things.

581
00:39:29,350 --> 00:39:31,569
Well, at the very end of

582
00:39:31,569 --> 00:39:36,510
basic training, here
comes the news.

583
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:44,369
Nobody out of all
the other soldiers

584
00:39:44,369 --> 00:39:46,770
went to cadet training.

585
00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:48,529
And those that scored the

586
00:39:48,529 --> 00:39:53,070
highest were sent to
radio operator school.

587
00:39:57,030 --> 00:40:02,310
Yeah you know, those with popular lower scores were
sent to gunnery schools

588
00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:08,270
or else possibly any
other area of service.

589
00:40:08,830 --> 00:40:10,990
From Beloxi,

590
00:40:10,990 --> 00:40:14,649
Mississippi, I was told

591
00:40:14,649 --> 00:40:17,890
I was going to radio school
and we went to Sioux Falls,

592
00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:23,369
South Dakota. It was
in the winter time.

593
00:40:23,369 --> 00:40:26,749
And in Sioux Falls,
South Dakota,

594
00:40:26,749 --> 00:40:36,269
we had classrooms and started
to identify dobson dashes.

595
00:40:36,269 --> 00:40:40,410
And we started like
four words per minute.

596
00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:46,889
They would send out
dots and dashes and well,

597
00:40:46,889 --> 00:40:54,389
prior to that, we were
told three dashes would be

598
00:40:54,389 --> 00:41:02,289
an O or an A would be a dot and a dash, and so on.

599
00:41:02,289 --> 00:41:08,750
But everything was very
close, especially the dots.

600
00:41:08,750 --> 00:41:14,769
Like H was four dots. And to hear

601
00:41:14,769 --> 00:41:17,530
three dots and then
hear four dots,

602
00:41:17,530 --> 00:41:21,049
it was really hard to
decipher what it was.

603
00:41:21,049 --> 00:41:24,950
But we started at four
words per minute.

604
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:27,209
And built a classroom,

605
00:41:27,209 --> 00:41:32,489
possibly about maybe 15, 20.

606
00:41:32,489 --> 00:41:39,329
And there were three instructors
and they were civilians, and 

607
00:41:39,329 --> 00:41:43,590
they were extremely good people.

608
00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:47,950
They wanted to hammer
this into your mind.

609
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:53,570
My understanding is
that younger people

610
00:41:53,570 --> 00:41:58,570
are able to capture new
events rather than somebody,

611
00:41:58,570 --> 00:42:04,230
say, 30 years old. It's true today.

612
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:08,670
So after doing four
words per minute,

613
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:14,149
there's no way that I've
been able to do this thing.

614
00:42:14,149 --> 00:42:18,310
The object was to do
25 words per minute.

615
00:42:18,310 --> 00:42:20,609
And I said, there's
absolutely no way.

616
00:42:20,609 --> 00:42:23,950
Well, it wasn't just Morse code,

617
00:42:24,990 --> 00:42:27,449
you couldn't sit
there all day and

618
00:42:27,449 --> 00:42:31,390
be hammered with all
the dots and dashes.

619
00:42:31,790 --> 00:42:35,930
So I was actually a radio
operator mechanic,

620
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:39,029
and the mechanical
part of this was

621
00:42:39,029 --> 00:42:44,390
to actually build a receiver.

622
00:42:45,110 --> 00:42:49,450
And the receiver in them
days was very simple.

623
00:42:49,450 --> 00:42:51,090
You had a radio tube,

624
00:42:51,090 --> 00:42:52,830
you had a transformer,

625
00:42:52,830 --> 00:42:55,709
a condenser, and a resistor.

626
00:42:55,709 --> 00:42:58,589
And what you had to do was

627
00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:04,089
determine from a schematic
exactly how to do this.

628
00:43:04,089 --> 00:43:06,930
And we were able to build

629
00:43:06,930 --> 00:43:12,410
a radio and then tune it
in and get a station.

630
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:16,649
That's amazing. So when you

631
00:43:16,649 --> 00:43:19,170
were sent to radio
operator school,

632
00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:20,769
how did you feel about that?

633
00:43:20,769 --> 00:43:22,349
What were you feeling
at that time?

634
00:43:22,349 --> 00:43:26,490
Well, I was highly
disappointed, naturally,

635
00:43:26,490 --> 00:43:32,049
because it's not what I
spent years building up to.

636
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:38,659
One thing I can say is
that well previously I

637
00:43:38,659 --> 00:43:42,480
said that nobody went to
aviation cadet training,

638
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,999
but I was friendly with
an elder man and he was

639
00:43:47,999 --> 00:43:55,819
a flight instructor and even
he was not assigned to this.

640
00:43:55,860 --> 00:44:00,220
Apparently, as I 
look at it today,

641
00:44:00,380 --> 00:44:06,080
there was a shortage of
radio operators. And even today

642
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:14,519
I feel that to be able 
to be able to,

643
00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:17,739
send out words by
dots and dashes and

644
00:44:17,739 --> 00:44:21,379
also to interpretate them and

645
00:44:21,379 --> 00:44:29,259
sent to you would be much
harder to learn than,

646
00:44:29,259 --> 00:44:33,420
say, a navigator
bombardier or a pilot.

647
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:37,819
A pilot can learn to fly
in about two months.

648
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:43,239
And a Bombardier, I believe after

649
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,179
about one month of training to

650
00:44:45,179 --> 00:44:48,820
familiarise yourself with
the Norton Bomb Site,

651
00:44:48,820 --> 00:44:51,899
you could really do the job.

652
00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:55,080
The navigator, probably
a little bit different.

653
00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:02,859
You might need to have a
little bit of moxie to do that.

654
00:45:02,859 --> 00:45:07,200
But I spent nine months

655
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,940
training as a radio
operator and mechanic.

656
00:45:11,820 --> 00:45:15,939
After being able to pass
four words per minute,

657
00:45:15,939 --> 00:45:19,719
we would go to six words
per minute. And then

658
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:24,900
eight, ten 0and finally get
up to a higher number.

659
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:32,059
And it's really surprising how
you could accomplish this.

660
00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:38,039
Like I mentioned, the
instructors were extremely good.

661
00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:39,860
They were highly concerned.

662
00:45:39,860 --> 00:45:41,680
They wanted that student

663
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,879
to reach the ultimate
25 words per minute.

664
00:45:46,879 --> 00:45:53,019
Now, I do know that
some couldn't do it.

665
00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:56,919
And I don't know what
happened to them.

666
00:45:56,919 --> 00:46:00,619
Possibly, they were dispatched to

667
00:46:00,619 --> 00:46:03,599
an aircraft carrier
even though they

668
00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:09,960
weren't reaching the [undecipherable ]25.

669
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,299
One final thing was that of course 

670
00:46:12,299 --> 00:46:15,199
we were sitting in a
quiet classroom

671
00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:21,580
and then the final thing was
to board a training plane.

672
00:46:21,580 --> 00:46:28,779
It held about ten
proficient radio operators

673
00:46:28,779 --> 00:46:32,539
and the plane would fly

674
00:46:32,539 --> 00:46:36,900
around and we would
contact the grown station,

675
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:38,959
they would call us back

676
00:46:38,959 --> 00:46:44,219
and then the most important
part of being an operator is

677
00:46:44,219 --> 00:46:48,780
to have the ground station

678
00:46:48,780 --> 00:46:52,700
know exactly where
you are at all times.

679
00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:55,719
But I I did reach that

680
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:01,219
and then once I
graduated from that,

681
00:47:02,140 --> 00:47:08,900
I was assigned for
training in Pio Texas.

682
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:14,299
And it took well we had
to leave then and

683
00:47:14,299 --> 00:47:18,519
and they said that you need to

684
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:24,039
report in 14 days to Pio Texas
from Sioux Falls South Dakota.

685
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:26,499
So what I did, I went back

686
00:47:26,499 --> 00:47:29,259
home and this is
this is the time

687
00:47:29,259 --> 00:47:36,560
when I proposed to
Marie for marriage

688
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:42,319
and I really loved her
mother. I really did.

689
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:46,539
And I always talked to her. And

690
00:47:46,539 --> 00:47:50,680
her older sister was always

691
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,479
throwing wise cracks at

692
00:47:52,479 --> 00:47:56,339
me when I was dating
prior to the war.

693
00:47:56,339 --> 00:47:58,839
Well, you know, a
woman, you know,

694
00:47:58,839 --> 00:48:03,499
she's never on time. Her
date is 07:00 O' clock. No wait,

695
00:48:03,499 --> 00:48:09,119
she's upstairs preparing
herself. Well then at one time,

696
00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:11,599
her sister Anna said to me,

697
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:14,519
she's not ready yet,
so, what do you say

698
00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:18,179
that you and I go
out together? But

699
00:48:18,179 --> 00:48:22,659
she was married. Her husband
was in the infantry.

700
00:48:22,659 --> 00:48:24,239
But it was just a joke.

701
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,260
But during this period,

702
00:48:29,820 --> 00:48:33,560
they knew that I
was going to Texas

703
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:39,219
and I said goodbye to
Anna and Anna said to me,

704
00:48:39,219 --> 00:48:42,259
you know, I'm never
going to see you again.

705
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:47,760
And that kind of struck
me a little bit because,

706
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,499
you know, what what she meant.

707
00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:54,740
But then I did go to Pio,

708
00:48:54,740 --> 00:49:00,659
Texas and this is where
we found our crew.

709
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:04,000
So before we talk
about the crew,

710
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,379
can you just lay out what

711
00:49:06,379 --> 00:49:09,760
were what were the duties
of a radio operator?

712
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,440
You mentioned getting
the Morse code

713
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,760
and sending the Morse code.

714
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,060
Was that the primary duty?
What were the duties?

715
00:49:18,060 --> 00:49:21,579
Well, the primary thing is

716
00:49:21,579 --> 00:49:29,579
to notify the ground station
exactly where you are.

717
00:49:29,579 --> 00:49:32,219
That was the primary thing.

718
00:49:32,219 --> 00:49:35,539
And then overseas, it was to

719
00:49:35,539 --> 00:49:37,639
monitor the receiver in

720
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:40,940
case there was a
change of target.

721
00:49:41,940 --> 00:49:47,240
Change of target could, well usually from Tinian to Japan,

722
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:50,159
there were two weather
fronts. And some of them were pretty rough.

723
00:49:50,159 --> 00:49:58,100
And also targets in Japan,

724
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:00,259
there's a primary one and a secondary

725
00:50:00,259 --> 00:50:06,999
one. If a wave of bombers went

726
00:50:06,999 --> 00:50:10,960
before one of your
primary targets

727
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,259
and had great ground resistance, we'll then

728
00:50:15,460 --> 00:50:21,260
we were told to go to
the secondary target.

729
00:50:24,860 --> 00:50:28,579
And of course, there were
two things right there.

730
00:50:28,940 --> 00:50:37,680
And also to be able
to find our position,

731
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,399
like in the states, overseas

732
00:50:40,399 --> 00:50:45,260
were different because nobody

733
00:50:45,260 --> 00:50:47,579
needed to know where
you were going because

734
00:50:47,579 --> 00:50:51,040
the Japanese were picking up
all of those radio signals.

735
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:58,600
And by the way, the dots
and dashes were all coded.

736
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,360
It wasn't plain English,

737
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,439
like have a good day.

738
00:51:03,439 --> 00:51:05,579
No way! It would be dots and

739
00:51:05,579 --> 00:51:09,940
dashes for have a good day or whatever.

740
00:51:09,940 --> 00:51:20,649
But if our navigator  lost
track of where we were,

741
00:51:20,649 --> 00:51:25,249
that was his responsibility
also to know where we are,

742
00:51:25,249 --> 00:51:30,329
and he would get the position in

743
00:51:30,329 --> 00:51:33,169
longitude and latitude
and then send it to

744
00:51:33,169 --> 00:51:37,029
me. And we were side by side
in the plane by the way.

745
00:51:37,029 --> 00:51:40,670
And I would radio

746
00:51:40,670 --> 00:51:44,049
back to our base and
tell them where we are.

747
00:51:44,049 --> 00:51:47,369
I see. So you mentioned

748
00:51:47,369 --> 00:51:50,729
you got to Texas and you
got your crew assignment.

749
00:51:50,729 --> 00:51:53,929
So was this when you found out
what your unit would be

750
00:51:53,929 --> 00:51:58,509
in the Air Corps and who
you'd be working with?

751
00:51:58,509 --> 00:52:03,529
Well, we were
totally in the dark.

752
00:52:03,529 --> 00:52:06,250
We had no idea,

753
00:52:07,050 --> 00:52:10,509
all we did was go
from step to step.

754
00:52:10,509 --> 00:52:13,110
When we were in Pio Texas,

755
00:52:13,110 --> 00:52:16,350
that's the first
time I saw a B-29.

756
00:52:16,350 --> 00:52:22,389
And I had no idea
where where B-29s were.

757
00:52:22,389 --> 00:52:25,769
Of course, it's a bomber
and apparently it was

758
00:52:25,769 --> 00:52:30,369
being used somewhere
in this war.

759
00:52:30,810 --> 00:52:37,054
And our crew was assembled in

760
00:52:37,054 --> 00:52:40,739
and I feel that I'm one of

761
00:52:40,739 --> 00:52:44,720
the lucky ones
because our captain,

762
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:48,420
I mean, our pilot,

763
00:52:48,420 --> 00:52:52,260
he's called an airplane
commander and he's the pilot.

764
00:52:52,260 --> 00:52:54,560
He was from Fort Worth, Texas.

765
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,520
And the co-pilot was
actually called the pilot.

766
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,459
And then there was

767
00:53:00,459 --> 00:53:04,979
a flight engineer that was
responsible for monitoring how

768
00:53:04,979 --> 00:53:06,959
the engines are functioning

769
00:53:06,959 --> 00:53:10,000
and also the hydraulics
and the plane

770
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,840
that would operate
the bomb bay doors

771
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,159
and landing gear and
everything else,

772
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:19,319
that was a very responsible
job. The pilot did have

773
00:53:19,319 --> 00:53:21,159
some of them instruments,

774
00:53:21,159 --> 00:53:23,540
but not as much of
the flight engineer.

775
00:53:23,540 --> 00:53:26,419
And as far as a bombarder goes,

776
00:53:26,820 --> 00:53:30,099
he didn't really have
next to nothing to

777
00:53:30,099 --> 00:53:34,060
do except at the target area.

778
00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:42,660
And also we had four gunners,

779
00:53:42,740 --> 00:53:46,219
There was a tail gunner and they

780
00:53:46,219 --> 00:53:50,040
had two 50 caliber machine guns

781
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,080
plus a 30 millimeter cannon.

782
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,339
and then on the right side of

783
00:53:54,339 --> 00:53:56,699
the plane and left side
of the plane were

784
00:53:56,699 --> 00:54:00,099
gunners and there was like a
little bubble where they could

785
00:54:00,099 --> 00:54:04,020
look out and have about 100, 180 degrees vision.

786
00:54:04,020 --> 00:54:10,359
And the guns were controlled
remotely, that they did have

787
00:54:10,359 --> 00:54:15,259
a handheld device that
they would be able to aim

788
00:54:15,259 --> 00:54:19,499
at a target in the turret with

789
00:54:19,499 --> 00:54:24,919
the guns would respond
to whatever was there.

790
00:54:24,919 --> 00:54:29,880
And the main gunner was called 
central fire control.

791
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,760
He was in between both
of these gunners.

792
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,099
and he was sitting
up on a pedestal and

793
00:54:36,099 --> 00:54:40,540
his head was up at the top
of the plane in a dome.

794
00:54:40,540 --> 00:54:44,720
And he had 360 degrees vision.

795
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:48,700
And he was the master gunner.

796
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:54,579
He could fire all of
the guns in the plane,

797
00:54:54,579 --> 00:54:58,180
with the exception
of the tail gunner.

798
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:03,299
And the bombardier also

799
00:55:03,299 --> 00:55:08,220
was able to control one of
the turrets in the front.

800
00:55:09,220 --> 00:55:14,540
What did you think the
first time you saw a B-29?

801
00:55:15,940 --> 00:55:19,079
I never saw anything
like this thing.

802
00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:24,299
It was such a massive
plane and the size of

803
00:55:24,299 --> 00:55:31,359
the propellers were something
just about unbelievable.

804
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:34,220
And as far as the inside goes,

805
00:55:34,220 --> 00:55:36,380
it wasn't really too crowded.

806
00:55:36,380 --> 00:55:38,139
I've been in

807
00:55:38,139 --> 00:55:43,660
other smaller size bombers
and it's really cramped.

808
00:55:43,660 --> 00:55:48,639
But there were plenty
of room. And of

809
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:53,900
course the crew was almost
shoulder to shoulder,

810
00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:56,739
and especially the
navigator and I,

811
00:55:56,739 --> 00:56:00,059
we corresponded, you
know, constantly.

812
00:56:00,059 --> 00:56:07,059
And it was an aircraft

813
00:56:07,059 --> 00:56:12,500
that was pressurized
and also heated,

814
00:56:12,500 --> 00:56:21,480
and it was unique [undecipherable]
structure because

815
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:24,719
all the other planes in

816
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:31,839
the Army Air Force
were not pressurized,

817
00:56:31,839 --> 00:56:34,159
and the flight crews all had to

818
00:56:34,159 --> 00:56:37,819
wear heavy jackets all the time,

819
00:56:37,819 --> 00:56:39,319
but we would just have

820
00:56:39,319 --> 00:56:42,180
a simple flying suit

821
00:56:42,180 --> 00:56:47,079
and be real comfortable
at any altitude.

822
00:56:47,210 --> 00:56:51,290
Tell me about the layout
inside the plane?

823
00:56:51,290 --> 00:56:53,590
So where, where were all
the different people?

824
00:56:53,590 --> 00:56:56,369
Well, well, starting
with the bombardier,

825
00:56:56,369 --> 00:56:58,350
he was at the nose of the plane.

826
00:56:58,350 --> 00:57:01,710
And at the nose of the plane,

827
00:57:01,710 --> 00:57:04,310
it's just loaded with windows.

828
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:06,189
He had the best view. He

829
00:57:06,189 --> 00:57:08,449
could see everything
that was going on.

830
00:57:08,449 --> 00:57:17,170
And the pilot, I mean
the airplane commander,

831
00:57:17,170 --> 00:57:19,669
who as I mentioned before,

832
00:57:19,669 --> 00:57:21,749
I was lucky to have them,

833
00:57:21,749 --> 00:57:23,809
all of the flight instructors

834
00:57:23,809 --> 00:57:25,889
wanted to be with
him when we were

835
00:57:25,889 --> 00:57:30,329
training, but B-29 was
unfamiliar with him.

836
00:57:30,329 --> 00:57:34,009
But he did have a background of

837
00:57:34,009 --> 00:57:37,809
flying bombers. Prior to

838
00:57:37,809 --> 00:57:42,570
being assigned to
assemble a crew for B-29s

839
00:57:42,570 --> 00:57:46,589
he flew B-24 out of Australia.

840
00:57:46,589 --> 00:57:55,250
And his bombing raids were
going North, Guadacanal,

841
00:57:55,250 --> 00:58:00,309
New Guinea, and also
Layte in the Philippines.

842
00:58:00,309 --> 00:58:04,730
And he did have 25 missions.

843
00:58:04,730 --> 00:58:07,969
And what he would always do

844
00:58:07,969 --> 00:58:12,230
is save one bomb before our return.

845
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:17,969
They passed over

846
00:58:17,969 --> 00:58:26,010
a Japanese ship and the
bombardier bombed a ship and sunk it.

847
00:58:26,010 --> 00:58:28,629
He was highly decorated.

848
00:58:28,629 --> 00:58:33,190
But he had his personal reasons

849
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:35,709
for wanting a second tour.

850
00:58:35,709 --> 00:58:37,710
He got his 25 missions.

851
00:58:37,710 --> 00:58:40,129
And 25 missions is really

852
00:58:40,129 --> 00:58:46,429
the magic number.
If you reach 20, if that's a big word,

853
00:58:46,429 --> 00:58:50,110
If you reach 25 missions,

854
00:58:50,110 --> 00:58:53,850
well then you could return
back to the States.

855
00:58:54,260 --> 00:58:59,699
And I'll review again,

856
00:58:59,699 --> 00:59:02,659
in the in the front area was

857
00:59:02,659 --> 00:59:06,720
the bombardier
airplane commander.

858
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,120
pilot, co pilot,

859
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,999
flight engineer, navigator

860
00:59:11,999 --> 00:59:17,500
and me. In the back

861
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:21,140
and access to the
back was a tunnel.

862
00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:22,999
And you'd have to more or less

863
00:59:22,999 --> 00:59:25,000
like swim through this tunnel,

864
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,339
it was about 30 inches in diameter.

865
00:59:27,339 --> 00:59:29,899
And if you wanted to go from

866
00:59:29,899 --> 00:59:33,259
front to rear or rear to front,

867
00:59:33,259 --> 00:59:37,839
you'd have to go through
this tunnel. And in the 

868
00:59:37,839 --> 00:59:42,420
 back where the
right scanner,

869
00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:44,880
left scanner, central
fire control,

870
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,920
tail gunner, and also
a radio operator, 

871
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,859
I mean radar operator.

872
00:59:53,540 --> 00:59:57,840
And all of these jobs,

873
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,459
did they all have special
equipment? What's that

874
01:00:01,459 --> 01:00:04,459
again? Did all of these
different positions

875
01:00:04,459 --> 01:00:06,715
operate special equipment?

876
01:00:06,715 --> 01:00:11,329
Well, yes. But I was really

877
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:16,669
surprised that the
amount of equipment for

878
01:00:16,669 --> 01:00:20,950
radio operator was
was almost similar

879
01:00:20,950 --> 01:00:29,430
to what we were seeing in
Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

880
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:33,250
Apparently, they were preparing

881
01:00:33,250 --> 01:00:37,669
for B-29s in a course that
we were never told.

882
01:00:37,669 --> 01:00:40,610
So, tell me a little bit
more about that equipment?

883
01:00:40,610 --> 01:00:45,270
What did your station look
like inside the plane?

884
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:49,110
What did the equipment
look like inside the plane?

885
01:00:49,110 --> 01:00:52,570
You mean as a radar operator?

886
01:00:52,570 --> 01:00:54,009
Mm hm.

887
01:00:57,130 --> 01:01:01,909
It was a large desk. And it was

888
01:01:01,909 --> 01:01:06,530
from ceiling to the
floor with transmitters

889
01:01:06,530 --> 01:01:09,589
and also a receiver and

890
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:16,250
also other objects which
I can't quite recall,

891
01:01:16,250 --> 01:01:20,530
but it was a tremendous
responsibility.

892
01:01:21,730 --> 01:01:24,989
So, you mentioned
the importance too of

893
01:01:24,989 --> 01:01:27,490
the ground crew that
serviced the plane.

894
01:01:27,490 --> 01:01:28,709
Do you want to tell
me a little bit

895
01:01:28,709 --> 01:01:30,110
about those ground crews?

896
01:01:30,110 --> 01:01:34,409
Well, ground crews in

897
01:01:34,409 --> 01:01:37,529
the states were not

898
01:01:37,529 --> 01:01:41,469
as dedicated to the
plane as those overseas.

899
01:01:41,469 --> 01:01:48,289
And they were a little bit
sloppy, in my estimation,

900
01:01:48,970 --> 01:01:51,790
about maintaining the plane,

901
01:01:51,790 --> 01:01:55,689
because almost every
flight that we had

902
01:01:55,689 --> 01:02:01,969
a training flight involved
some sort of malfunction.

903
01:02:02,730 --> 01:02:06,570
Many times they
would have to shut

904
01:02:06,570 --> 01:02:10,889
down the engine and feather it.

905
01:02:10,930 --> 01:02:15,229
I don't know what you
mean by feathering it,

906
01:02:15,229 --> 01:02:21,089
but cannot answer me,

907
01:02:21,089 --> 01:02:24,569
but I will tell you
what feathering is.

908
01:02:25,090 --> 01:02:28,989
Airplane propellers
have a slight angle

909
01:02:28,989 --> 01:02:31,130
and as they rotate, kind of like

910
01:02:31,130 --> 01:02:35,490
weaves itself through the area
and it pushes the plane.

911
01:02:35,490 --> 01:02:39,509
Well, if you need to shut down

912
01:02:39,509 --> 01:02:42,530
the engine because of a fire

913
01:02:42,530 --> 01:02:45,910
or a malfunction of the engine,

914
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:52,790
you would have to feather
the plane. So by feathering

915
01:02:52,790 --> 01:02:57,479
instead of it being at
90 degrees to the fuselage,

916
01:02:57,479 --> 01:03:00,240
you would make it parallel.

917
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,179
Now, if you wouldn't do this

918
01:03:02,179 --> 01:03:04,479
and the engine was shut down,

919
01:03:04,479 --> 01:03:09,760
it would windmill.
And it would exceed

920
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:17,119
the normal rotation of an
engine that was functioning [needs confirmation]

921
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:22,099
and then it would dis
disintegrate and blow up.

922
01:03:22,340 --> 01:03:26,859
So that sounds really
important that they would , that they did this maintenance. 

923
01:03:26,859 --> 01:03:34,920
Oh yes! Yeah. Yes. Well, many times we kind of  feathered the engines

924
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,615
and then also engine fires.

925
01:03:37,615 --> 01:03:44,469
Well, engine fires would
be oil and also gasoline

926
01:03:44,469 --> 01:03:45,989
and it would be up to

927
01:03:45,989 --> 01:03:55,549
the operator that had

928
01:03:55,549 --> 01:03:58,690
monitored all of the engines.

929
01:03:59,250 --> 01:04:03,529
Flight engineer, that's
what I'm trying to say.

930
01:04:03,770 --> 01:04:08,469
And it would be up to
him to shut off

931
01:04:08,469 --> 01:04:13,830
the fuel and try to
extinguish the fire.

932
01:04:13,830 --> 01:04:16,409
Well the flight did have
an extinguisher,

933
01:04:16,409 --> 01:04:19,449
which hardly ever worked. And

934
01:04:19,449 --> 01:04:24,770
if the firewood was
still pretty heavy,

935
01:04:25,210 --> 01:04:27,709
the pilot would go into

936
01:04:27,709 --> 01:04:31,390
a nosedive and
blow out the flame

937
01:04:31,390 --> 01:04:35,330
then. And this was very common,

938
01:04:35,330 --> 01:04:40,029
but we were told that
once you get overseas,

939
01:04:40,029 --> 01:04:43,209
you're going to have
a ground crew that,

940
01:04:43,209 --> 01:04:49,029
is strictly devoted
to the one aircraft and

941
01:04:49,029 --> 01:04:51,730
it would be much different.

942
01:04:55,490 --> 01:04:58,670
So what do you remember
about landing?

943
01:04:58,670 --> 01:05:07,330
What was it like to land one
of these planes?

944
01:05:07,330 --> 01:05:10,890
You know it's very strange
that during training, most of the

945
01:05:13,650 --> 01:05:16,129
there was a lot of training where

946
01:05:16,129 --> 01:05:19,969
the airplane commander would

947
01:05:19,969 --> 01:05:21,769
take off and land and

948
01:05:21,769 --> 01:05:24,930
then practice again
and keep repeating.

949
01:05:26,210 --> 01:05:32,970
The strangest thing is that
the bomb bays were always empty, and 

950
01:05:33,650 --> 01:05:39,909
he was flying an
empty plane. Overseas

951
01:05:39,909 --> 01:05:42,369
you're not flying
an empty plane.

952
01:05:42,369 --> 01:05:44,849
What you're doing is putting in

953
01:05:44,849 --> 01:05:50,490
10,000 12,000 14,000
pounds of ordnance.

954
01:05:53,450 --> 01:05:58,910
And then I can't quite understand why
they didn't put some dummies

955
01:05:58,910 --> 01:06:04,609
or something into
the plan for that.

956
01:06:04,609 --> 01:06:13,270
And the bombardier was
also training. Pio

957
01:06:13,270 --> 01:06:20,070
Texas is halfway in between
El Paso and Fort Worth and

958
01:06:20,070 --> 01:06:24,130
it's all desert and
there's oil wells.

959
01:06:24,130 --> 01:06:31,830
And there's a small
town, Stockton, Texas.

960
01:06:31,830 --> 01:06:34,189
There was a little building with

961
01:06:34,189 --> 01:06:39,849
a smokestack and the object
was for the bombardier to,

962
01:06:39,849 --> 01:06:42,050
it was a practice bomb.

963
01:06:42,050 --> 01:06:46,770
It wasn't nothing more than
a cylinder filled with sand,

964
01:06:46,770 --> 01:06:49,650
weighed about a 100 pounds and

965
01:06:50,610 --> 01:06:53,149
the object was was to try

966
01:06:53,149 --> 01:06:55,930
to drop that bomb
into the chimney.

967
01:06:55,930 --> 01:06:58,349
And I don't really

968
01:06:58,349 --> 01:07:03,889
know how efficient he
was as a bombardier.

969
01:07:03,889 --> 01:07:06,529
And as far as the gunners go,

970
01:07:08,410 --> 01:07:12,070
there were training planes,

971
01:07:12,070 --> 01:07:14,129
fighters that, that would

972
01:07:14,129 --> 01:07:16,610
attack us while
we were training

973
01:07:16,610 --> 01:07:23,690
and then the gunners
would use camera bombing,

974
01:07:23,850 --> 01:07:27,630
I mean camera shooting.

975
01:07:27,630 --> 01:07:34,489
And then there were no blind
spots in this, by the way.

976
01:07:34,489 --> 01:07:38,769
And then they would
show the film later

977
01:07:38,769 --> 01:07:40,409
on to show what

978
01:07:40,409 --> 01:07:45,069
the performance is for the
Gunners. Well at one time,

979
01:07:45,069 --> 01:07:47,910
this one gunner is tracking

980
01:07:47,910 --> 01:07:50,549
the fighter and what
you're doing is he's

981
01:07:50,549 --> 01:07:54,949
still shooting and he

982
01:07:54,949 --> 01:07:57,970
goes right across the
wing of our plane.

983
01:07:58,250 --> 01:08:02,330
In other words, he would have
shot down on our own plane.

984
01:08:02,330 --> 01:08:05,829
Great. So you were telling
me about your crew.

985
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:08,570
Can you tell me the
name of your commander?

986
01:08:08,570 --> 01:08:11,090
Yeah, Virgil Stevens.

987
01:08:11,090 --> 01:08:14,170
He was from Fort Worth, Texas, and 

988
01:08:14,450 --> 01:08:21,789
he was a captain. I'm
extremely lucky to have them.

989
01:08:21,789 --> 01:08:28,600
And how many crew members were
there total in your B-29?

990
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:33,809
11, 11 crew members.

991
01:08:34,250 --> 01:08:36,769
And they all had
different skills?

992
01:08:36,769 --> 01:08:38,489
They all brought their
different skills.

993
01:08:38,489 --> 01:08:40,269
They all had separate training?

994
01:08:40,269 --> 01:08:48,050
Oh, yes. Yes. And everybody
had to be proficient.

995
01:08:48,250 --> 01:08:56,810
Virgil Stevens, who has gone
through a war of Australia,

996
01:08:56,930 --> 01:09:00,109
he wanted to make
absolutely sure that

997
01:09:00,109 --> 01:09:06,409
every crew member was
really up to par.

998
01:09:07,410 --> 01:09:10,769
He did monitor me real close.

999
01:09:10,769 --> 01:09:14,099
Well, as I mentioned before,

1000
01:09:14,099 --> 01:09:19,179
we were in a classroom
doing 25 words per minute.

1001
01:09:19,179 --> 01:09:24,260
Well, that's a nice
quiet classroom.

1002
01:09:24,260 --> 01:09:29,380
Well, here comes a B-29

1003
01:09:29,380 --> 01:09:32,019
and I'm sitting in there and

1004
01:09:32,019 --> 01:09:37,039
there's four engines,
massive engines,

1005
01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:40,979
2000 horsepower,
two on each side,

1006
01:09:40,979 --> 01:09:47,079
and the plane is rocking in
the sound of the engine.

1007
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:50,419
I could not do 25
words per minute.

1008
01:09:50,419 --> 01:09:52,799
I could get as high as 20.

1009
01:09:52,799 --> 01:09:54,419
And

1010
01:09:56,940 --> 01:10:00,099
Virgil Stevens would be

1011
01:10:00,099 --> 01:10:02,919
checking on the performance
of his crew members.

1012
01:10:02,919 --> 01:10:06,939
And he said to me one
day he said Mel, he said,

1013
01:10:06,939 --> 01:10:09,339
when are you going
to get 25 words

1014
01:10:09,339 --> 01:10:11,879
per minute? And I said I

1015
01:10:11,879 --> 01:10:13,799
will get it. I said
it's a little bit

1016
01:10:13,799 --> 01:10:17,399
difficult but I promise
you I will get it.

1017
01:10:17,399 --> 01:10:23,819
And I did. Also part
of the training,

1018
01:10:24,060 --> 01:10:27,840
I'm not too sure
about our navigator,

1019
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:34,199
if he was really the type of
man that he was looking for,

1020
01:10:34,199 --> 01:10:37,999
but anyway, he was
there. One time

1021
01:10:37,999 --> 01:10:43,419
we were flying at night and
we were over New Mexico

1022
01:10:43,419 --> 01:10:48,159
and the pilot radioed

1023
01:10:48,159 --> 01:10:57,059
me that I need to find
out where we are,

1024
01:10:57,059 --> 01:11:01,519
the navigator couldn't
do it for some reason.

1025
01:11:01,519 --> 01:11:04,979
So the way it is,

1026
01:11:05,820 --> 01:11:11,639
the pilot would fly a steady
course and there were

1027
01:11:11,639 --> 01:11:19,539
ground stations that would
be able to track you

1028
01:11:19,539 --> 01:11:24,399
and they were, there
were three of them. It's 

1029
01:11:24,399 --> 01:11:28,859
 spaced 120 degrees
apart and they

1030
01:11:28,859 --> 01:11:33,039
would send out
signals after hearing

1031
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:38,779
my signal and where the
crosshairs came from the tree,

1032
01:11:38,779 --> 01:11:41,539
well, then that was our
position. And of course

1033
01:11:41,539 --> 01:11:44,559
the pilot knew which
direction he was going,

1034
01:11:44,559 --> 01:11:46,899
so anyway, he could

1035
01:11:46,899 --> 01:11:52,099
turn around and then
return back to base.

1036
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:59,539
It, our final training
preposition in

1037
01:11:59,539 --> 01:12:05,579
Pio Texas was to take a
long flight into States

1038
01:12:05,579 --> 01:12:12,139
and what we did was was to
board the plane about

1039
01:12:12,139 --> 01:12:21,199
midafternoon and it would
be a 3,000 mile flight,

1040
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:25,839
which is equivalent to
the flight to Japan.

1041
01:12:25,839 --> 01:12:28,999
And we still didn't know.

1042
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:32,819
I believe even the
officers didn't know.

1043
01:12:32,819 --> 01:12:35,680
So we flew to Rochester,

1044
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:39,579
Minnesota and and we

1045
01:12:39,579 --> 01:12:42,419
were struck by lightning
a couple of times.

1046
01:12:42,419 --> 01:12:45,539
Well, Rochester,

1047
01:12:45,539 --> 01:12:48,699
Minnesota, I'm not sure
about the mileage,

1048
01:12:48,699 --> 01:12:53,479
but it was beyond

1049
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:58,999
the length where I could send

1050
01:12:58,999 --> 01:13:01,199
a signal to the ground station

1051
01:13:01,199 --> 01:13:04,519
because our transmitters
on board the plane,

1052
01:13:04,519 --> 01:13:06,239
we're not as strong as what

1053
01:13:06,239 --> 01:13:08,839
they were at the ground station.

1054
01:13:08,839 --> 01:13:11,839
So to, well

1055
01:13:11,839 --> 01:13:15,059
there was only a small antenna
at the top of the plane.

1056
01:13:15,059 --> 01:13:18,599
And it was
sufficient for say,

1057
01:13:18,599 --> 01:13:20,539
4 or 500 miles where

1058
01:13:20,539 --> 01:13:23,639
you could converse
back and forth.

1059
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,519
What I would do, well,

1060
01:13:29,519 --> 01:13:33,359
the plane was outfitted
with a trailing antenna,

1061
01:13:33,359 --> 01:13:37,539
and since I had the

1062
01:13:37,539 --> 01:13:39,599
report being up in

1063
01:13:39,599 --> 01:13:41,379
the Northern States to

1064
01:13:41,379 --> 01:13:44,639
the ground station to
tell them where we are,

1065
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:50,359
I would notify the
airplane commander

1066
01:13:50,359 --> 01:13:54,039
that I'm dropping a
trailing antenna.

1067
01:13:54,039 --> 01:13:59,279
Well, a trailing antenna
had weight which

1068
01:13:59,279 --> 01:14:04,519
resembled a pair and
it would spool down,

1069
01:14:04,519 --> 01:14:06,759
it would be about 200 feet long,

1070
01:14:06,759 --> 01:14:09,939
and that would be the antenna

1071
01:14:09,939 --> 01:14:16,119
and it was extremely

1072
01:14:16,119 --> 01:14:20,359
loud, even in my receiver
when I was sending,

1073
01:14:20,359 --> 01:14:26,439
and then once my
work was done, well,

1074
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:31,039
then I would tell the captain
that I'm bringing back

1075
01:14:31,039 --> 01:14:37,440
the trailing antenna. Well,
from Rochester, Minnesota

1076
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:39,139
well, by the way,
we were struck by

1077
01:14:39,139 --> 01:14:41,919
lightning twice up in the area.

1078
01:14:41,919 --> 01:14:43,699
It didn't really
affect the plane,

1079
01:14:43,699 --> 01:14:44,939
but it did rock,

1080
01:14:44,939 --> 01:14:49,019
and I know that I wasn't wearing

1081
01:14:49,019 --> 01:14:55,159
a seat belt and my head hit
the ceiling of the plane,

1082
01:14:55,159 --> 01:15:03,040
but from there, we flew
eastward to Cleveland.l

1083
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:08,839
and then our bombardier's
objective on his flight was to

1084
01:15:08,839 --> 01:15:16,599
 camera bomb the blimp
hangers in Akron, Ohio.

1085
01:15:17,220 --> 01:15:22,239
Even today that, that's
where the Goodyear blimp is,

1086
01:15:22,239 --> 01:15:24,799
that that's the home port.

1087
01:15:24,799 --> 01:15:26,839
So he would do that and then we

1088
01:15:26,839 --> 01:15:30,159
would return back to Texas.

1089
01:15:30,159 --> 01:15:36,459
Well, many times some of these crews

1090
01:15:36,700 --> 01:15:39,480
would more or less simulate

1091
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:44,599
a fake malfunction with the
plane and do a landing,

1092
01:15:44,599 --> 01:15:47,519
say in Chicago or
some nice city

1093
01:15:47,519 --> 01:15:51,039
and then enjoy a little bit

1094
01:15:51,039 --> 01:15:53,399
of life outside of the military.

1095
01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:55,099
If that ever happened,

1096
01:15:55,099 --> 01:15:56,799
they would have to
repeat and do it

1097
01:15:56,799 --> 01:15:59,934
again until they did
the whole thing.

1098
01:15:59,934 --> 01:16:07,329
And that would and that was the last
thing that we did there.

1099
01:16:07,329 --> 01:16:12,609
But I probably said
enough about training.

1100
01:16:12,609 --> 01:16:17,449
But but there is one incident
that you're good to go. Mmm hmm.

1101
01:16:17,449 --> 01:16:22,129
Okay. Well, as we
were flying, well,

1102
01:16:22,129 --> 01:16:28,170
our left gunner, he knew
quite a bit about airplanes,

1103
01:16:28,170 --> 01:16:30,630
not necessarily a B-29

1104
01:16:30,630 --> 01:16:35,449
and as we were

1105
01:16:35,449 --> 01:16:42,369
flying in in Texas
over the intercom,

1106
01:16:42,369 --> 01:16:45,449
he told the pilot that he can

1107
01:16:45,449 --> 01:16:50,810
smell fuel coming
out of the bomb bay.

1108
01:16:50,810 --> 01:16:54,789
So the pilot said,

1109
01:16:54,789 --> 01:16:59,789
well go in the bomb bay and see
if you can find out where

1110
01:16:59,789 --> 01:17:06,509
the leakage is and make sure
you have a parachute on.

1111
01:17:06,509 --> 01:17:09,609
Well, I guess you probably
already know the answer.

1112
01:17:09,609 --> 01:17:12,829
But anyway, I'm going
to keep on going.

1113
01:17:12,829 --> 01:17:17,369
Well, in the bomb bay there's
a cat walk where you

1114
01:17:17,369 --> 01:17:22,829
can walk around
the entire bomb bay,

1115
01:17:22,829 --> 01:17:26,689
and he was reaching in some of

1116
01:17:26,689 --> 01:17:28,389
the lines and and then he

1117
01:17:28,389 --> 01:17:31,069
radio back to the captain
that he couldn't find it.

1118
01:17:31,069 --> 01:17:33,389
So what he said is
that he's going

1119
01:17:33,389 --> 01:17:36,789
to lay on the
closed bomb bay doors

1120
01:17:36,789 --> 01:17:41,869
and reach in for

1121
01:17:41,869 --> 01:17:45,289
some of the fuel lines to
see if there's any leakage

1122
01:17:45,289 --> 01:17:49,649
and lo and behold,

1123
01:17:49,649 --> 01:17:54,650
he pulled the wrong cord
and opened the bomb bay

1124
01:17:54,650 --> 01:17:56,969
and out he went.

1125
01:17:57,770 --> 01:18:01,869
And when the rear gunners,

1126
01:18:01,869 --> 01:18:05,109
to radio, the captain, Franz

1127
01:18:05,109 --> 01:18:07,209
just fell out of the plane.

1128
01:18:07,209 --> 01:18:11,929
So we were at about
12,000 feet then

1129
01:18:11,929 --> 01:18:16,269
and do you see a chute?

1130
01:18:16,269 --> 01:18:19,829
Do you see a chute? And nobody
said no, we can't see one.

1131
01:18:19,829 --> 01:18:25,089
Well finally we saw
his parachute and what

1132
01:18:25,089 --> 01:18:27,649
our pilot did was to radio

1133
01:18:27,649 --> 01:18:30,969
the base that he's
lost a crew member,

1134
01:18:30,969 --> 01:18:35,229
so he put the plane in the
dive and he's flying over

1135
01:18:35,229 --> 01:18:40,369
the top of the oil wells
and he's circling, Franz,

1136
01:18:40,369 --> 01:18:44,189
that was his name, circling him

1137
01:18:44,189 --> 01:18:46,449
and then we we see

1138
01:18:46,449 --> 01:18:49,019
the ambulance coming and
then to pick him up.

1139
01:18:49,019 --> 01:18:51,609
But he wasn't injured at all.

1140
01:18:51,609 --> 01:18:53,169
Well, we continued.

1141
01:18:53,169 --> 01:18:57,609
Well, apparently it was nothing

1142
01:18:57,609 --> 01:19:03,429
of importance even though
everything is important.

1143
01:19:03,990 --> 01:19:07,629
So when we got back to base,

1144
01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:10,049
we come to our barracks

1145
01:19:10,049 --> 01:19:12,289
and hear Franz is sitting up on

1146
01:19:12,289 --> 01:19:16,189
his bunk really
enjoying himself.

1147
01:19:16,189 --> 01:19:20,729
And anybody that bails
out, well you know 

1148
01:19:20,729 --> 01:19:22,909
normally we wear a pair of wings

1149
01:19:22,909 --> 01:19:26,469
which has a wing on each
side and also a center.

1150
01:19:26,469 --> 01:19:28,929
Well, in his case,

1151
01:19:28,929 --> 01:19:33,449
he would get half of a
wing and he could wear it.

1152
01:19:33,449 --> 01:19:35,829
Well, what he did was to

1153
01:19:35,829 --> 01:19:40,130
seek out who packed
his parachute.

1154
01:19:40,130 --> 01:19:44,589
Well, every, well, there there was
a huge hanger and there

1155
01:19:44,589 --> 01:19:49,730
were all women in there
that would pack parachutes.

1156
01:19:50,330 --> 01:19:54,209
So he got a box of candy
and they went to meet

1157
01:19:54,209 --> 01:19:58,250
this woman that
packed his parachute.

1158
01:19:58,250 --> 01:20:00,609
And did he meet her?

1159
01:20:01,460 --> 01:20:03,919
Yes. Yes.

1160
01:20:03,919 --> 01:20:05,519
Did they hit it off?

1161
01:20:05,519 --> 01:20:09,579
No. No. It worked out well.

1162
01:20:09,579 --> 01:20:15,979
Well, after we finished this
long flight of 3,000 miles,

1163
01:20:15,979 --> 01:20:19,799
we were sent to Topeka, Kansas.

1164
01:20:19,799 --> 01:20:22,500
Topeka, Kansas had an airfield

1165
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:25,479
and that was a staging area.

1166
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:31,219
That is where we were
equipped with all of

1167
01:20:31,219 --> 01:20:33,699
our overseas equipment. And

1168
01:20:33,699 --> 01:20:37,540
we still didn't know
our destination.

1169
01:20:38,860 --> 01:20:43,779
We were given a 45
caliber pistol.

1170
01:20:43,779 --> 01:20:47,119
canteen, a survival knife,

1171
01:20:47,119 --> 01:20:49,419
which I will show you later

1172
01:20:49,419 --> 01:20:53,519
and also a medical kit

1173
01:20:53,519 --> 01:20:58,160
which contained two
syringes of morphine.

1174
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,959
So if you were injured, you

1175
01:21:00,959 --> 01:21:05,139
could shoot yourself
to kindly of ease the pain.

1176
01:21:06,850 --> 01:21:14,369
And we were issued an oxygen
mask plus flying clothing.

1177
01:21:14,369 --> 01:21:20,630
From there we went
to San Francisco.

1178
01:21:20,630 --> 01:21:25,589
And north of San Francisco
is Hamilton Field

1179
01:21:25,589 --> 01:21:31,749
and from there we
didn't stay very long,

1180
01:21:31,749 --> 01:21:34,729
from there we boarded

1181
01:21:34,729 --> 01:21:41,029
a C-54 transport plane
and flew to Hawaii.

1182
01:21:41,029 --> 01:21:44,829
And we only spent
hardly an hour or

1183
01:21:44,829 --> 01:21:47,809
two and actually to

1184
01:21:47,809 --> 01:21:51,749
refuel and possibly
a change of pilots.

1185
01:21:51,749 --> 01:21:56,629
And then from there, our next
stop was Johnston Island,

1186
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:58,089
which is nothing more than

1187
01:21:58,089 --> 01:22:00,610
a little island
with an airstrip.

1188
01:22:00,610 --> 01:22:03,009
And it's only used

1189
01:22:03,009 --> 01:22:06,129
to refuel aircraft
that are in the air,

1190
01:22:06,129 --> 01:22:08,750
not necessarily B-29,

1191
01:22:08,750 --> 01:22:12,450
but any other aircraft,

1192
01:22:12,450 --> 01:22:14,389
could be Navy, whatever.

1193
01:22:14,389 --> 01:22:21,170
And then from there we made
a landing on Kwajalein. And

1194
01:22:22,570 --> 01:22:26,889
that is when it
really, really hit me.

1195
01:22:26,930 --> 01:22:31,969
What in the world am
I getting into?

1196
01:22:31,969 --> 01:22:33,689
What did you know at this point?

1197
01:22:33,689 --> 01:22:37,789
What were you, how did
you feel about being in

1198
01:22:37,789 --> 01:22:43,569
the Pacific? Prior to that

1199
01:22:43,770 --> 01:22:48,250
I figured it was an excursion.

1200
01:22:48,250 --> 01:22:53,269
You know, it would be more
or less a piece of cake.

1201
01:22:53,269 --> 01:22:56,769
But Kwajalein was steamy

1202
01:22:56,769 --> 01:23:00,189
hot and smelly
and everything

1203
01:23:00,189 --> 01:23:04,069
and we did spend
quite a bit of time

1204
01:23:04,069 --> 01:23:09,609
there in and I was thinking,

1205
01:23:09,810 --> 01:23:13,889
what kind of cards
am I being dealt?

1206
01:23:14,090 --> 01:23:17,330
We still didn't know
our final destination,

1207
01:23:17,330 --> 01:23:20,389
but from Kwajalein,
we went to Guam.

1208
01:23:20,389 --> 01:23:27,230
And Guam, it was almost
similar to Kwajalein.

1209
01:23:27,230 --> 01:23:29,269
It was hot and sticky,

1210
01:23:29,269 --> 01:23:35,309
had plenty of snakes and
tree frogs, huge frogs.l that

1211
01:23:35,309 --> 01:23:37,689
were up up in trees,

1212
01:23:37,689 --> 01:23:40,029
something very unusual to me.

1213
01:23:40,029 --> 01:23:43,889
Well we we only stayed
there for a day or two,

1214
01:23:43,889 --> 01:23:46,189
and then from then
we went to Tinian.

1215
01:23:46,189 --> 01:23:51,509
And that is where our
final destination was.

1216
01:23:51,509 --> 01:23:54,149
What was the name of your unit?

1217
01:23:54,149 --> 01:23:56,569
Did your unit have a name?

1218
01:23:57,020 --> 01:24:01,159
Did you have a name for
your plane and your unit?

1219
01:24:01,159 --> 01:24:02,739
Was there a specific name?

1220
01:24:02,739 --> 01:24:09,619
Well, we didn't really have
a plane assigned to us.

1221
01:24:10,060 --> 01:24:15,659
The way this was, planes

1222
01:24:15,659 --> 01:24:19,279
were being lost over
Japan big time.

1223
01:24:19,279 --> 01:24:24,479
Not necessarily by a
military action in Japan,

1224
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:27,099
but malfunction of engines.

1225
01:24:27,099 --> 01:24:30,499
But B-29 were being

1226
01:24:30,499 --> 01:24:36,379
built in three different
cities in the country.

1227
01:24:37,820 --> 01:24:41,139
And every plane, every new plane

1228
01:24:41,139 --> 01:24:44,839
would would carry
two new engines

1229
01:24:44,839 --> 01:24:47,499
in the bomb bays,
because engines were

1230
01:24:47,499 --> 01:24:53,659
the the the main function of
flying this long distance.

1231
01:24:54,140 --> 01:25:00,019
We never had a plane assigned to

1232
01:25:00,019 --> 01:25:08,299
us because the the hardened
crews that they were flying,

1233
01:25:08,299 --> 01:25:12,969
these planes that did
several mission to Japan,

1234
01:25:12,969 --> 01:25:16,729
they would qualify
for the new aircraft and 

1235
01:25:16,729 --> 01:25:19,909
the aircraft that they were

1236
01:25:19,909 --> 01:25:25,109
abandoning would be
sent to somebody else.

1237
01:25:25,109 --> 01:25:30,570
So we would actually bounce
around. Altogether

1238
01:25:31,970 --> 01:25:35,949
I flew in three
different planes,

1239
01:25:35,949 --> 01:25:44,370
one Nippon Nemesis, the
other was Stardust

1240
01:25:44,370 --> 01:25:51,409
and one of my favorites was
Goin Jesse. Them three planes.

1241
01:25:52,900 --> 01:25:57,259
So before we talk
about your missions,

1242
01:25:59,020 --> 01:26:02,019
can you tell me a little
bit about what you

1243
01:26:02,019 --> 01:26:05,059
did at, in Tinian when
you weren't flying?

1244
01:26:05,059 --> 01:26:07,339
What was life like there?

1245
01:26:07,540 --> 01:26:10,039
When we were flying, well

1246
01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:13,219
we used to fly out. Well,

1247
01:26:13,219 --> 01:26:16,460
actually in between missions

1248
01:26:16,460 --> 01:26:21,539
we would still go airborne and
cruise around the islands,

1249
01:26:21,539 --> 01:26:29,939
and it was mostly to give
bombardier training. In between Tinian 

1250
01:26:29,939 --> 01:26:36,179
and Guam is an island called Rota

1251
01:26:36,179 --> 01:26:39,919
and we would head into to Rota

1252
01:26:39,919 --> 01:26:44,299
and our bombardier
would drop one bomb.

1253
01:26:44,299 --> 01:26:45,739
It was a live bomb by the way,

1254
01:26:45,739 --> 01:26:47,699
 not a practice bomb.

1255
01:26:47,699 --> 01:26:50,419
He would bomb a target

1256
01:26:50,419 --> 01:26:53,619
on Rota just to
sharpen his skills.

1257
01:26:53,619 --> 01:26:56,059
And of course, I

1258
01:26:56,059 --> 01:26:58,279
would have to report
to the ground station,

1259
01:26:58,279 --> 01:27:00,219
our position all the time

1260
01:27:00,219 --> 01:27:03,199
because we were a long
distance from Japan

1261
01:27:03,199 --> 01:27:06,960
and if they would pick up
any of my transmissions,

1262
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:09,300
it would be meaningless.

1263
01:27:15,220 --> 01:27:18,120
And being out in the Pacific

1264
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:24,159
I realized that in between
Tinian and Japan,

1265
01:27:24,159 --> 01:27:29,839
there's no friendly territory and there's 
it's a lot of water.

1266
01:27:29,839 --> 01:27:35,219
Pacific Ocean is a pretty
big stretch of water and

1267
01:27:36,180 --> 01:27:39,479
what I would do,

1268
01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:44,699
as much as possible go swimming, and 

1269
01:27:46,340 --> 01:27:54,740
Tinian itself is all coral, it's only
about 6 inches of topsoil.

1270
01:27:54,740 --> 01:27:58,419
And the natives did grow sugar cane

1271
01:27:58,419 --> 01:28:04,059
there as well as side
pan growing sugar cane.

1272
01:28:04,059 --> 01:28:13,119
That was the name, the domain
agricultural item. Well Tinian 

1273
01:28:13,119 --> 01:28:16,179
doesn't really have any beaches,

1274
01:28:17,300 --> 01:28:19,919
it's all coral cliffs.

1275
01:28:19,919 --> 01:28:21,739
Some are not too high,

1276
01:28:21,739 --> 01:28:25,359
and some are well I would say about 

1277
01:28:25,359 --> 01:28:29,299
150 feet. Well where we

1278
01:28:29,299 --> 01:28:34,339
were stationed in our quarters,
there was a little cove

1279
01:28:35,580 --> 01:28:40,679
and somebody had placed a
long rope and anchored

1280
01:28:40,679 --> 01:28:45,740
it and the rope would go all the
way down to the shoreline.

1281
01:28:45,740 --> 01:28:51,399
Well, I really want to do
that as much as possible.

1282
01:28:51,399 --> 01:28:56,119
And prior to doing that,

1283
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:59,739
I would get on one side of
the cliff and look over

1284
01:28:59,739 --> 01:29:04,620
the side and kind of
eyeball the shoreline.

1285
01:29:04,620 --> 01:29:09,779
And then what do I see
in the shoreline? Sharks.

1286
01:29:09,779 --> 01:29:17,099
So I would grab chunks of
coral and toss them out at,

1287
01:29:17,099 --> 01:29:19,059
at the sharks and then they

1288
01:29:19,059 --> 01:29:21,979
would take off and
leave the area.

1289
01:29:21,979 --> 01:29:25,419
So then I would go to the rope,

1290
01:29:25,419 --> 01:29:31,639
slide right down, and swim out.

1291
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:36,899
And we didn't have any
bathing suits.

1292
01:29:36,899 --> 01:29:42,899
We would swim in nude and 
swimming out in the coral

1293
01:29:42,899 --> 01:29:46,839
and I would open my
eyes in the salt water

1294
01:29:46,839 --> 01:29:49,559
which is which is a no, no,
but I would do it and 

1295
01:29:49,559 --> 01:29:52,239
there were loads of fish, I mean

1296
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:56,999
brilliant ones, red ones
and everything else, and 

1297
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,379
I would spend quite
a bit of time there.

1298
01:30:00,379 --> 01:30:03,369
And as far as like
like the beach,

1299
01:30:03,369 --> 01:30:04,629
it was nothing more than

1300
01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:08,429
a place about maybe 20
feet long and it was

1301
01:30:08,429 --> 01:30:17,169
a bits of dust from
volcanic ash or whatever.

1302
01:30:17,169 --> 01:30:20,189
And then to get back up again,

1303
01:30:20,189 --> 01:30:23,689
have to go hand over
hand over the rail

1304
01:30:23,689 --> 01:30:26,589
and at that time,

1305
01:30:26,589 --> 01:30:28,789
I was able to do it, but

1306
01:30:28,789 --> 01:30:31,689
there was no way I
could do that today.

1307
01:30:33,130 --> 01:30:36,249
What was that? And also, I mean,

1308
01:30:36,249 --> 01:30:39,290
if you mind to
continue to elaborate,

1309
01:30:41,370 --> 01:30:47,409
Saipan was invaded first and

1310
01:30:49,290 --> 01:30:53,650
the flat area was completely

1311
01:30:53,650 --> 01:30:58,709
controlled by our
American forces

1312
01:30:58,709 --> 01:31:05,949
and the remaining Japanese
would go up in the mountains

1313
01:31:05,949 --> 01:31:12,090
and our Marines felt that
it was not worthwhile

1314
01:31:12,090 --> 01:31:15,229
to try to get to them

1315
01:31:15,229 --> 01:31:20,449
and they suffer unnecessary
loss of life.

1316
01:31:22,050 --> 01:31:25,489
So it was still an active part.

1317
01:31:26,890 --> 01:31:29,749
Several times what I would do is

1318
01:31:29,749 --> 01:31:34,270
to hitch a ride and
go to the airfield

1319
01:31:34,270 --> 01:31:37,309
and go to the
shoreline of Tinian,

1320
01:31:37,309 --> 01:31:40,349
which is only about a
mile away from Saipan

1321
01:31:40,349 --> 01:31:45,389
and I would watch these
Navy dive bombers

1322
01:31:45,389 --> 01:31:47,029
come in and they would be

1323
01:31:47,029 --> 01:31:49,509
bombing the mountain areas where

1324
01:31:49,509 --> 01:31:54,169
the Japanese were holed up.

1325
01:31:54,169 --> 01:32:02,009
And also another occasion
when we were flying,

1326
01:32:02,450 --> 01:32:04,590
if I was outside,

1327
01:32:04,590 --> 01:32:07,989
I would hear a loud
explosion and smoke.

1328
01:32:07,989 --> 01:32:13,329
And at the flight
line it would be

1329
01:32:13,329 --> 01:32:20,029
returning planes that
crashed on the runway.

1330
01:32:20,029 --> 01:32:22,729
And I would go out there,

1331
01:32:22,729 --> 01:32:26,469
and I do have pictures of this,

1332
01:32:26,469 --> 01:32:33,850
and it, the flames consumed

1333
01:32:33,850 --> 01:32:36,649
everything almost
in its entirety.

1334
01:32:36,649 --> 01:32:39,829
There are only a little
bits of here and there.

1335
01:32:39,829 --> 01:32:44,569
But as I look at it today,

1336
01:32:45,210 --> 01:32:47,749
we never did it actually,

1337
01:32:47,749 --> 01:32:50,229
but as I look at it today, well,

1338
01:32:50,229 --> 01:32:53,069
in the rear compartment
where the gunners are

1339
01:32:53,069 --> 01:32:55,749
they entered the plane through

1340
01:32:55,749 --> 01:33:01,369
a smile opening in the side
that was the tail gunner,

1341
01:33:01,369 --> 01:33:05,510
radar operator, and
also the gunners

1342
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:09,250
and then in the
front compartment,

1343
01:33:11,570 --> 01:33:15,869
the way we got into the
plane was either through

1344
01:33:15,869 --> 01:33:19,649
the bomb bay or else
from the nose wheel

1345
01:33:19,649 --> 01:33:22,269
and we would kind like scoot up,

1346
01:33:22,269 --> 01:33:23,849
put our feet on the tires,

1347
01:33:23,849 --> 01:33:25,509
and get up into the plane.

1348
01:33:25,509 --> 01:33:32,609
Well, if we were to do
an emergency landing,

1349
01:33:34,210 --> 01:33:36,689
it never [undecipherable] me at the time

1350
01:33:36,689 --> 01:33:39,189
that the only way that
we ever could have got

1351
01:33:39,189 --> 01:33:41,829
out was to go

1352
01:33:41,829 --> 01:33:45,569
through the tunnel to
the rear of the plane.

1353
01:33:45,569 --> 01:33:51,049
And upon the, making a landing,

1354
01:33:51,049 --> 01:33:54,169
the plane always caught on fire,

1355
01:33:54,169 --> 01:33:58,409
always it consumed everything.

1356
01:33:59,140 --> 01:34:07,299
Was that because of a explosion
inside the the engine or?

1357
01:34:07,299 --> 01:34:10,820
Well, it could be a combination

1358
01:34:10,820 --> 01:34:15,079
of not necessarily an engine,

1359
01:34:15,079 --> 01:34:20,539
but because a B-29
could fly and maintain

1360
01:34:20,539 --> 01:34:27,559
altitude with two engines
operating both on one side.

1361
01:34:27,559 --> 01:34:31,539
If you had to shut
down two engines,

1362
01:34:32,180 --> 01:34:36,579
you could maintain altitude
for a short period of time,

1363
01:34:36,579 --> 01:34:40,219
but slowly, it wasn't
enough power to maintain.

1364
01:34:40,219 --> 01:34:44,119
But as far as these
planes crashing,

1365
01:34:44,119 --> 01:34:47,939
it wasn't necessarily
a loss of an engine,

1366
01:34:47,939 --> 01:34:50,759
because we did
many landings with

1367
01:34:50,759 --> 01:34:52,379
shutting down an engine and

1368
01:34:52,379 --> 01:34:54,379
operating with just
three engines,

1369
01:34:54,379 --> 01:34:57,439
but more than likely,

1370
01:34:57,439 --> 01:35:01,359
it was being hit in Japan

1371
01:35:01,359 --> 01:35:06,339
either with flank or
else fighter planes.

1372
01:35:06,339 --> 01:35:10,320
So it is of course, hydraulics

1373
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:14,859
are a main part of
operating everything

1374
01:35:14,859 --> 01:35:17,349
and it could be that some of

1375
01:35:17,349 --> 01:35:19,789
the hydraulics
failed and the plane

1376
01:35:19,789 --> 01:35:25,409
wasn't able to break or
lower the landing gear.

1377
01:35:25,409 --> 01:35:29,269
How important was that
landing gear? Like

1378
01:35:29,269 --> 01:35:30,669
what was that landing gear?

1379
01:35:30,669 --> 01:35:33,349
That was your wheels
and everything.

1380
01:35:33,349 --> 01:35:36,409
Well, the landing gear

1381
01:35:36,409 --> 01:35:39,349
was a very sophisticated
landing gear.

1382
01:35:39,349 --> 01:35:43,770
It was extremely
hard to duplicate.

1383
01:35:43,770 --> 01:35:47,529
It was made in the
Mariana, Georgia.

1384
01:35:50,050 --> 01:35:53,569
And it was very well built.

1385
01:35:53,569 --> 01:35:58,609
We never did ever have a
problem with the landing gear.

1386
01:35:58,910 --> 01:36:02,429
That's great. I
mean, I know we were

1387
01:36:02,429 --> 01:36:04,009
right next to that plant where

1388
01:36:04,009 --> 01:36:05,589
that landing gear was made. You were!

1389
01:36:05,589 --> 01:36:10,830
So it's good to hear.  Kennesaw is right by Mariana. 



1390
01:36:11,630 --> 01:36:14,249
I know I'm getting
off the subject,

1391
01:36:14,249 --> 01:36:18,289
but after the war

1392
01:36:18,289 --> 01:36:20,929
ended or else even prior
to the end of the war,

1393
01:36:20,929 --> 01:36:26,329
the Russians were trying
to duplicate a B-29,

1394
01:36:26,329 --> 01:36:30,589
because they did get their
hands on a few of them.

1395
01:36:31,310 --> 01:36:40,069
And they were, they built about 2000
and they were very faulty.

1396
01:36:40,069 --> 01:36:41,929
And the main thing is that

1397
01:36:41,929 --> 01:36:44,529
they couldn't build
a landing gear.

1398
01:36:44,529 --> 01:36:46,449
The Russian couldn't do it.

1399
01:36:46,449 --> 01:36:49,249
Only the Georgians could do it

1400
01:36:49,249 --> 01:36:54,449
and they tried to buy
them from this country,

1401
01:36:54,449 --> 01:36:57,509
but our country
wouldn't sell them.

1402
01:36:58,590 --> 01:37:03,189
So, before we get into
the missions you flew,

1403
01:37:03,189 --> 01:37:06,069
I was just curious one more
thing about life on base.

1404
01:37:06,069 --> 01:37:09,189
What was the food
like? And you know,

1405
01:37:09,189 --> 01:37:11,529
what was it like to
just live on base?

1406
01:37:11,529 --> 01:37:16,929
What did you do and—?
Living quarters

1407
01:37:16,929 --> 01:37:21,649
were probably as worse
as you can get.

1408
01:37:21,649 --> 01:37:29,769
We lived in a tent
and we slept on cots,

1409
01:37:29,769 --> 01:37:32,349
no mattress, no mattress,

1410
01:37:32,349 --> 01:37:35,309
no pillow, dirt floor.

1411
01:37:38,590 --> 01:37:41,029
It was really tough to do.

1412
01:37:41,029 --> 01:37:43,529
I mean, as far as a pillow goes,

1413
01:37:43,529 --> 01:37:45,309
we have to roll up some clothing

1414
01:37:45,309 --> 01:37:47,669
for a pillow and and that's

1415
01:37:47,669 --> 01:37:52,189
the way it was. And most of

1416
01:37:52,189 --> 01:37:57,549
the time when I was there I
did spend it in there but

1417
01:37:57,790 --> 01:38:01,089
there were a few Quonset huts.

1418
01:38:01,089 --> 01:38:06,029
And some of the hardened crews,

1419
01:38:06,029 --> 01:38:12,789
were in the Quonset huts and

1420
01:38:14,310 --> 01:38:19,569
after living in the
tents, if there was

1421
01:38:19,569 --> 01:38:24,729
an opening and we were
sent to the Quonset hut.

1422
01:38:24,729 --> 01:38:28,999
And there was a
tough feeling 

1423
01:38:28,999 --> 01:38:34,499
because why is the
vacancy there?

1424
01:38:34,620 --> 01:38:37,559
And of course it's
quite obvious that

1425
01:38:37,559 --> 01:38:42,459
the vacancy is there because
that crew did not make it.

1426
01:38:44,980 --> 01:38:52,040
And as far as bathroom,

1427
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:54,859
what there was what
was a building,

1428
01:38:54,859 --> 01:38:58,039
a wooden building with
we screen porches,

1429
01:38:58,039 --> 01:39:04,419
and there was a
plank with holes and

1430
01:39:06,900 --> 01:39:10,339
that was the way
our bathroom was.

1431
01:39:11,900 --> 01:39:16,020
Did you ever get any
fresh fruit or vegetables

1432
01:39:16,020 --> 01:39:19,699
or fish or was all your
food from rations?

1433
01:39:19,699 --> 01:39:22,939
No. No. The food was terrible.

1434
01:39:23,340 --> 01:39:29,099
The food was a duplication
over and over again.

1435
01:39:30,060 --> 01:39:34,899
And the main thing I like
was the homemade bread.

1436
01:39:37,340 --> 01:39:41,319
We would get a lot
of hash every day, almost 

1437
01:39:41,319 --> 01:39:49,139
hash. And the so called
butter was in large cans,

1438
01:39:49,139 --> 01:39:51,059
and it came from New Zealand,

1439
01:39:51,059 --> 01:39:52,959
and it was almost like grease.

1440
01:39:52,959 --> 01:39:58,719
And the milk was
all powdered milk.

1441
01:39:58,719 --> 01:40:06,500
And potatoes were
powdered potatoes.

1442
01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:08,739
I'm a little surprised that,

1443
01:40:08,739 --> 01:40:15,579
that we were fed so poorly.
When I went into the service,

1444
01:40:15,579 --> 01:40:18,439
I weighed 172 pounds

1445
01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:25,939
and because of the type
of food I was eating,

1446
01:40:26,300 --> 01:40:29,099
I had lost ten pounds.

1447
01:40:29,099 --> 01:40:36,099
I came back, I came back
and I weighed 162 pounds.

1448
01:40:37,790 --> 01:40:43,089
So tell me about the missions
that your unit carried out?

1449
01:40:43,089 --> 01:40:44,989
What were some
memorable missions?

1450
01:40:44,989 --> 01:40:49,389
Well, our bomb group was,

1451
01:40:50,150 --> 01:40:53,289
of course, I was in
the 20th Air Force

1452
01:40:53,289 --> 01:40:57,129
and the ninth bomb group,

1453
01:40:57,129 --> 01:41:01,389
fifth squadron and our
particular plane

1454
01:41:01,389 --> 01:41:05,829
to designate the
ninth bomb group,

1455
01:41:05,829 --> 01:41:09,349
it had a circle X on the tail.

1456
01:41:09,349 --> 01:41:12,989
And other bomb groups
had like an R or

1457
01:41:12,989 --> 01:41:17,070
some other letter of some
kind or other designation.

1458
01:41:17,070 --> 01:41:20,669
But I personally feel that

1459
01:41:20,669 --> 01:41:26,069
our bomb group was the most
dominant one of them all.

1460
01:41:26,070 --> 01:41:31,390
Because clippings in newsreels,

1461
01:41:31,390 --> 01:41:34,089
I see it always seem
to feed feature a

1462
01:41:34,089 --> 01:41:38,309
B-29 with a Circle
X on the tail.

1463
01:41:39,110 --> 01:41:44,749
The main functions of the
ninth bomb group was at

1464
01:41:44,749 --> 01:41:46,789
the beginning of the war to

1465
01:41:46,789 --> 01:41:50,409
load the planes with
percussion bombs,

1466
01:41:50,409 --> 01:42:01,009
which meant that they would
explode on a target, and probably

1467
01:42:01,009 --> 01:42:04,769
have affect 2 or 300
fields to the side.

1468
01:42:04,769 --> 01:42:09,409
But then for some reason
they realized that Japan

1469
01:42:09,409 --> 01:42:15,189
itself is constructed
of paper and wood.

1470
01:42:15,590 --> 01:42:19,029
So because of that,

1471
01:42:19,029 --> 01:42:26,549
they figured that they should
switch to incendiary raids.

1472
01:42:27,990 --> 01:42:35,049
And the way it was, there
was a cluster of, of bombs,

1473
01:42:35,049 --> 01:42:37,849
they weighed about 37 pounds,

1474
01:42:38,090 --> 01:42:47,289
probably 3, 4 dozen and there was a tail fin on the edge

1475
01:42:47,289 --> 01:42:50,889
and also nine metal
straps that held

1476
01:42:50,889 --> 01:42:55,329
them at the cluster. And that a 
bomber would drop them.

1477
01:42:55,329 --> 01:42:58,889
The tail fin would
point the bomb

1478
01:42:58,889 --> 01:43:04,529
downward and then the
tail fin would fall off,

1479
01:43:04,529 --> 01:43:08,649
and then the nine
straps would explode.

1480
01:43:08,649 --> 01:43:10,589
And once they got exploded,

1481
01:43:10,589 --> 01:43:14,389
well then the incendiary 
bombs would separate

1482
01:43:14,389 --> 01:43:18,189
and then they would
separate to the extent of

1483
01:43:18,189 --> 01:43:21,189
about a half a mile
to one side of

1484
01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:22,909
the plane and a half a mile

1485
01:43:22,909 --> 01:43:24,529
to the other side of the plane.

1486
01:43:24,529 --> 01:43:27,969
So as far as the length of it

1487
01:43:27,969 --> 01:43:32,509
goes because they're being

1488
01:43:32,509 --> 01:43:37,249
dropped simultaneously
and not as a cluster,

1489
01:43:38,450 --> 01:43:42,809
it would cover about 1 mile.

1490
01:43:42,809 --> 01:43:47,149
So one B-29 would be
able to set fires

1491
01:43:47,149 --> 01:43:52,369
about 1 mile wide
by over mile long.

1492
01:43:52,369 --> 01:43:59,289
And that alone would burn up all

1493
01:43:59,289 --> 01:44:06,929
of the civilian homes.

1494
01:44:08,330 --> 01:44:12,529
Okay. That was two of

1495
01:44:12,529 --> 01:44:18,129
the objects that our
group was assigned for.

1496
01:44:18,129 --> 01:44:21,569
Another one of them was to drop mines.

1497
01:44:23,770 --> 01:44:29,469
Our group I never went
on a mine mission,

1498
01:44:29,469 --> 01:44:33,709
but our group dropped

1499
01:44:33,709 --> 01:44:38,269
mines into waters off
the coast of Japan,

1500
01:44:38,390 --> 01:44:43,409
the Sea of Japan,
the Pacific side

1501
01:44:43,409 --> 01:44:52,289
and the mines totally encircled
the island in Tokyo Bay,

1502
01:44:52,289 --> 01:44:57,109
which was the main
port in Japan.

1503
01:44:57,109 --> 01:45:00,929
It was totally mined
and ships could

1504
01:45:00,929 --> 01:45:06,269
not enter the harbor.

1505
01:45:06,269 --> 01:45:10,869
But the readings that

1506
01:45:10,869 --> 01:45:14,489
I had done had said
that the mines alone

1507
01:45:14,489 --> 01:45:21,470
sunk more ships than
the entire Navy combined.

1508
01:45:22,030 --> 01:45:27,149
That seems like a big
statement to make.

1509
01:45:27,149 --> 01:45:29,249
But one thing about Japan,

1510
01:45:29,249 --> 01:45:32,170
they have absolutely
no resources

1511
01:45:32,170 --> 01:45:36,249
whatsoever. They
haven't got rubber,

1512
01:45:36,249 --> 01:45:40,430
iron, or coal, or
coke, or petroleum.

1513
01:45:40,430 --> 01:45:46,049
So everything had to be
imported into Japan

1514
01:45:46,049 --> 01:45:50,544
and that is why it
was so important

1515
01:45:50,544 --> 01:45:55,799
to more or less blockade
the entire island.

1516
01:45:55,799 --> 01:45:58,459
And of course, by doing this,

1517
01:45:58,700 --> 01:46:01,019
even food that was

1518
01:46:01,019 --> 01:46:06,139
imported to people where
were actually starving.

1519
01:46:06,900 --> 01:46:10,079
Were these things you
thought about at the time?

1520
01:46:10,079 --> 01:46:12,019
Like how did you think about,

1521
01:46:12,019 --> 01:46:15,019
what did you think about
dropping these fire bombs?

1522
01:46:15,019 --> 01:46:17,860
And did you think
about the civilians?

1523
01:46:21,300 --> 01:46:23,479
I give a lot of credit

1524
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:28,859
to the people that were
in this bomb group.

1525
01:46:29,060 --> 01:46:32,579
There were no
cowards, believe me.

1526
01:46:32,579 --> 01:46:35,439
I mean, all of these guys,

1527
01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:39,659
whether they were 19 or older.

1528
01:46:41,620 --> 01:46:45,239
At the time, I
thought all that we

1529
01:46:45,239 --> 01:46:48,239
were doing was just bombing

1530
01:46:48,239 --> 01:46:50,799
industrial plants
and stuff like this.

1531
01:46:50,799 --> 01:46:55,739
And the thought, never
entered my mind

1532
01:46:55,739 --> 01:47:00,699
that some of these items [needs confirmation]

1533
01:47:00,699 --> 01:47:04,520
were killing
innocent civilians.

1534
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:07,519
And at the time,

1535
01:47:07,519 --> 01:47:11,779
none of us ever
thought about that.

1536
01:47:14,140 --> 01:47:16,539
It does seem to hurt once in

1537
01:47:16,539 --> 01:47:21,339
a while because everybody
has a right to live.

1538
01:47:21,339 --> 01:47:24,619
But it was a war,

1539
01:47:24,619 --> 01:47:30,279
and it was run by people

1540
01:47:30,279 --> 01:47:34,139
that love war and they

1541
01:47:34,139 --> 01:47:39,079
were trying to
expand their empire.

1542
01:47:39,079 --> 01:47:41,439
Getting back to Pearl Harbor,

1543
01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:44,019
I can't really see why

1544
01:47:44,420 --> 01:47:48,899
Japan was trying to
attack a country

1545
01:47:48,899 --> 01:47:51,760
which is so far superior

1546
01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:57,385
to them in size and also
industrial complexes. Yeah.

1547
01:47:57,385 --> 01:48:01,149
But Japan,

1548
01:48:01,149 --> 01:48:04,189
in the early years overran

1549
01:48:04,189 --> 01:48:08,149
 China probably
in the early '30s.

1550
01:48:08,149 --> 01:48:14,149
And they also overran both Koreans,

1551
01:48:14,149 --> 01:48:22,170
and they had no mercy
whatsoever that they beheaded,

1552
01:48:22,170 --> 01:48:24,449
they killed, they
wrecked the woman

1553
01:48:24,449 --> 01:48:29,770
and they were truthfully barbarians.

1554
01:48:29,770 --> 01:48:35,369
And to the extent we,

1555
01:48:35,369 --> 01:48:39,669
to a certain degree thought
how brutal they were

1556
01:48:39,669 --> 01:48:42,249
They didn't seem to have

1557
01:48:42,249 --> 01:48:45,629
any regard at all
for human life.

1558
01:48:45,629 --> 01:48:48,449
All they wanted was power

1559
01:48:48,449 --> 01:48:51,869
and money more than
anything else.

1560
01:48:51,990 --> 01:48:59,529
And they, even after accumulating
China and Korea,

1561
01:48:59,529 --> 01:49:02,430
that they still
weren't satisfied.

1562
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:09,769
Well, the other fourth item,

1563
01:49:09,769 --> 01:49:16,609
as far as B-29 was after the
war ended to do POW missions.

1564
01:49:16,609 --> 01:49:21,089
POW missions were to load

1565
01:49:21,089 --> 01:49:25,289
planes with medical
supplies and food,

1566
01:49:25,289 --> 01:49:29,189
and seek out the
prisoners of war camps.

1567
01:49:29,189 --> 01:49:34,389
And our intelligence knew
exactly where these camps were,

1568
01:49:34,389 --> 01:49:39,009
and I did fly too
on those missions.

1569
01:49:39,009 --> 01:49:42,089
And what did you remember about

1570
01:49:42,089 --> 01:49:46,669
those missions? What, how did you,
how did they work?

1571
01:49:50,670 --> 01:49:55,329
Well I did mention our primary target

1572
01:49:55,329 --> 01:50:02,289
was POW camp outside of
the Kobe Osaka area.

1573
01:50:02,289 --> 01:50:09,229
And it was up to
the navigator to,

1574
01:50:09,229 --> 01:50:11,569
to, to, to get us there.

1575
01:50:11,569 --> 01:50:14,609
Well, he missed it by

1576
01:50:14,609 --> 01:50:18,789
about 200 miles and
we were went south,

1577
01:50:18,789 --> 01:50:22,669
but of course we were
fully aware of how

1578
01:50:22,669 --> 01:50:26,849
to get to this Kobe Osaka area,

1579
01:50:26,849 --> 01:50:31,769
and what we did was to go
through the inland sea and,

1580
01:50:31,769 --> 01:50:36,409
and then it hit the area
and we did make passes and,

1581
01:50:36,409 --> 01:50:41,099
and we could see
these POWs in,

1582
01:50:41,380 --> 01:50:46,339
in these enclosures. They
were not in the yards,

1583
01:50:46,339 --> 01:50:48,879
but they were waving to
us through the windows.

1584
01:50:48,879 --> 01:50:52,899
And we were flying
at about 500 feet.

1585
01:50:52,899 --> 01:50:59,680
And we would drop palettes
of food supplies,

1586
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:02,379
hoping that they would land in

1587
01:51:02,379 --> 01:51:10,219
the compound area so the
prisoners would get them.

1588
01:51:10,219 --> 01:51:13,079
But I doubt very

1589
01:51:13,079 --> 01:51:18,879
much if they landed where
they were supposed that,

1590
01:51:18,879 --> 01:51:25,549
the Japanese who were starving
would pass them on to the POW.

1591
01:51:25,549 --> 01:51:30,269
But on this particular
mission

1592
01:51:30,269 --> 01:51:36,250
the very last parachute was
a medical supply parachute.

1593
01:51:36,250 --> 01:51:38,809
It was blue in color.

1594
01:51:39,090 --> 01:51:48,169
And the third or fourth
pass across this area,

1595
01:51:49,970 --> 01:51:54,310
the, the bombardier dropped
the parachute

1596
01:51:54,310 --> 01:52:03,009
and it floated out to the sea and,

1597
01:52:03,009 --> 01:52:07,369
it was nowhere
near the target area

1598
01:52:07,369 --> 01:52:09,489
and what I could see was

1599
01:52:10,130 --> 01:52:14,149
Japanese fishing boats
scooting over to,

1600
01:52:14,149 --> 01:52:20,329
to retain this.
One of our last,

1601
01:52:20,329 --> 01:52:23,609
drops with the food

1602
01:52:24,010 --> 01:52:31,429
the parachute came out,

1603
01:52:31,429 --> 01:52:33,429
it was immediately deployed

1604
01:52:33,429 --> 01:52:37,889
and it had a
wooden palette.

1605
01:52:37,889 --> 01:52:41,314
Wel what happened was that
the shroud line that held

1606
01:52:41,314 --> 01:52:44,059
the pallet did not

1607
01:52:44,059 --> 01:52:48,160
disengage and what it
was doing was slapping

1608
01:52:48,160 --> 01:52:51,739
across the side of

1609
01:52:51,739 --> 01:52:55,739
the plane and the
parachute was fully open

1610
01:52:55,739 --> 01:52:58,819
and it was extremely dangerous

1611
01:52:58,819 --> 01:53:01,359
because there was no way that

1612
01:53:01,359 --> 01:53:05,019
the plane could fly
with all of this drag.

1613
01:53:05,540 --> 01:53:11,839
And our pilot said somebody has
got to go into the bomb bay

1614
01:53:11,839 --> 01:53:14,299
and cut the shroud line

1615
01:53:14,299 --> 01:53:18,819
to get rid of this pallet
that was banging the plane

1616
01:53:18,819 --> 01:53:23,380
and also to get rid of the
plane of the parachute.

1617
01:53:23,380 --> 01:53:29,739
Well, who's going to volunteer?
You're looking at him.

1618
01:53:30,460 --> 01:53:34,419
What I did was put
a parachute on

1619
01:53:34,419 --> 01:53:37,139
and took my knife

1620
01:53:38,220 --> 01:53:40,919
and I've got the knife right here.

1621
01:53:40,919 --> 01:53:46,279
And what I did was to walk
across, the cat walk

1622
01:53:46,279 --> 01:53:47,739
and I'm looking down and we're

1623
01:53:47,739 --> 01:53:50,459
only 500 feet and
all I can see is

1624
01:53:50,459 --> 01:53:55,659
ground and civilians
shaking their fists at us.

1625
01:53:55,659 --> 01:53:57,779
And I was able to cut

1626
01:53:57,779 --> 01:54:02,299
the shroud line. It was probably about this
wide and about this thick.

1627
01:54:02,299 --> 01:54:03,679
It was a real heavy.

1628
01:54:03,679 --> 01:54:07,019
It took quite a bit of
work to do it. And then

1629
01:54:07,019 --> 01:54:11,799
I was able to free it and then
come back into the plane.

1630
01:54:11,799 --> 01:54:15,899
But it was a very
dangerous thing to

1631
01:54:15,899 --> 01:54:21,820
do. And who is going
to volunteer?

1632
01:54:22,100 --> 01:54:27,279
Wow. But like I said,

1633
01:54:27,279 --> 01:54:31,019
they were dedicated people.

1634
01:54:32,020 --> 01:54:36,499
So tell me about
your impressions of Iwo

1635
01:54:36,499 --> 01:54:39,899
Jima and what the Marines

1636
01:54:39,899 --> 01:54:41,959
did there and why it
was important to you?

1637
01:54:41,959 --> 01:54:48,419
Well, I do have deep
feelings for Marines.

1638
01:54:51,030 --> 01:54:53,589
Our very first mission,

1639
01:54:53,589 --> 01:54:56,029
was the worst one.

1640
01:54:56,230 --> 01:54:59,930
We were flying Nippon Nemesis,

1641
01:54:59,930 --> 01:55:05,709
which was the first
plane. After we completed

1642
01:55:05,709 --> 01:55:12,709
our mission our plane
was badly damaged.

1643
01:55:12,709 --> 01:55:14,789
There were 72 holes in

1644
01:55:14,789 --> 01:55:18,589
a plane and the bomb bay
doors would not close.

1645
01:55:18,589 --> 01:55:24,689
And our pilots said
that because of

1646
01:55:24,689 --> 01:55:30,689
the drag with the bomb bay
doors not being closed,

1647
01:55:30,689 --> 01:55:34,069
it's gonna  create
a tremendous drag, and

1648
01:55:34,069 --> 01:55:36,669
burn a lot of fuel and we

1649
01:55:36,669 --> 01:55:40,829
were never going
to reach Tinian.

1650
01:55:42,270 --> 01:55:45,629
 And prior to that, we had

1651
01:55:45,629 --> 01:55:48,389
a meeting one time
saying that if for

1652
01:55:48,389 --> 01:55:51,349
some reason we were on a raid

1653
01:55:51,349 --> 01:55:54,909
and couldn't get back to
base, what would we do?

1654
01:55:54,909 --> 01:55:58,749
There were several options.

1655
01:55:58,749 --> 01:56:04,319
One would be to land
in Japan and be

1656
01:56:04,319 --> 01:56:07,559
a POW and get 

1657
01:56:07,559 --> 01:56:12,179
beheaded because that's
what Japanese were doing,

1658
01:56:12,179 --> 01:56:16,019
Or else to fly to Russia,

1659
01:56:16,019 --> 01:56:19,379
which at the northern
tip of Japan

1660
01:56:19,379 --> 01:56:24,619
was probably about
200 miles away.

1661
01:56:24,619 --> 01:56:28,319
Well, at the
beginning of the war,

1662
01:56:28,319 --> 01:56:34,199
I wasn't there then, but when B-29's
were first started to

1663
01:56:34,199 --> 01:56:36,959
do raids and ran

1664
01:56:36,959 --> 01:56:41,299
across a circumstance like
what I just described,

1665
01:56:41,299 --> 01:56:44,299
they would go to Russia and them

1666
01:56:46,500 --> 01:56:53,359
crews were actually captured.
Approaching Russia

1667
01:56:53,359 --> 01:57:00,699
the Russians would send out
fighters to escort the B-29,

1668
01:57:00,699 --> 01:57:02,459
not knowing whether
it was going to be

1669
01:57:02,459 --> 01:57:06,699
a raid on their
territory or not.

1670
01:57:06,699 --> 01:57:14,579
But then they would land and
like I previously mentioned, the

1671
01:57:15,180 --> 01:57:19,939
Russian did build
planes, and they had

1672
01:57:19,939 --> 01:57:25,119
the captured crews teach

1673
01:57:25,119 --> 01:57:28,539
the Russians how
to fly the plane.

1674
01:57:29,180 --> 01:57:32,619
 And there was only one
incident where

1675
01:57:32,619 --> 01:57:36,579
one crew was sent to Persia,

1676
01:57:36,579 --> 01:57:42,759
which is Iran, and that crew
was sent back to the states.

1677
01:57:42,759 --> 01:57:46,059
But other than that,
I don't really know

1678
01:57:46,059 --> 01:57:49,519
how many we were
doing this thing,

1679
01:57:49,519 --> 01:57:54,439
but that was really a no no
as far as going there.

1680
01:57:54,439 --> 01:57:59,919
And then the other option
was to take your chances

1681
01:57:59,919 --> 01:58:07,979
and try to make Iwo Jima.
Well, prior to this Iwo 

1682
01:58:09,340 --> 01:58:14,539
Jima was controlled
by the Japanese.  And

1683
01:58:14,539 --> 01:58:21,099
the flights going to Japan
would be attacked by fighters

1684
01:58:21,099 --> 01:58:23,500
that were based in Iwo Jima and 

1685
01:58:23,500 --> 01:58:32,579
then after planes returning
from the target area,

1686
01:58:32,579 --> 01:58:40,039
they would be hit again
with fighters from Iwo Jima.

1687
01:58:40,039 --> 01:58:46,379
So, it was very important to capture

1688
01:58:46,379 --> 01:58:49,679
Iwo Jima being held by

1689
01:58:49,679 --> 01:58:54,060
the Japanese to eliminate
 this obstacle.

1690
01:58:54,060 --> 01:58:57,579
Because Iwo Jima is directly on

1691
01:58:57,579 --> 01:58:59,379
the flight path to

1692
01:58:59,379 --> 01:59:03,659
Japan and there was
no way to avoid it.

1693
01:59:03,780 --> 01:59:06,659
Flights would not fly over,

1694
01:59:06,659 --> 01:59:09,239
they would probably
fly about 50 miles

1695
01:59:09,239 --> 01:59:11,159
either west of the island.

1696
01:59:11,159 --> 01:59:14,620
But still it was not sufficient.

1697
01:59:15,420 --> 01:59:23,499
One thing, the very first base
for B-29 was on Saipan 

1698
01:59:23,499 --> 01:59:29,139
Tinian was not occupied
then or invaded and

1699
01:59:29,180 --> 01:59:33,499
the very first B-29's that did fly

1700
01:59:34,020 --> 01:59:41,860
mediocre raids on Japan
at high altitudes

1701
01:59:44,220 --> 01:59:47,579
when the planes had left, that

1702
01:59:50,180 --> 01:59:53,099
the planes at Iwo Jima were fully

1703
01:59:53,099 --> 01:59:57,799
aware that there were
no planes left there,

1704
01:59:57,799 --> 01:59:59,739
so what do you do? They also

1705
01:59:59,739 --> 02:00:03,260
had small bombers on Iwo Jima.

1706
02:00:04,060 --> 02:00:08,239
And when the B-29's would leave for Japan

1707
02:00:08,239 --> 02:00:10,899
these planes would fly at

1708
02:00:10,899 --> 02:00:15,204
a very low altitude,
undetected by radar.

1709
02:00:15,204 --> 02:00:23,709
And what they would do is
to bomb the areas in Saipan.

1710
02:00:23,709 --> 02:00:26,129
But that came to a close.

1711
02:00:26,129 --> 02:00:31,949
But getting back to my
feelings about Iwo Jima, well,

1712
02:00:33,710 --> 02:00:40,829
Iwo Jima was only secured
about an hour, an hour

1713
02:00:40,829 --> 02:00:45,929
I mean about a month

1714
02:00:45,929 --> 02:00:53,524
before I started my flights.
And of the Marines,

1715
02:00:53,524 --> 02:01:01,179
7,000 were killed and just
about 20,000 were injured. And

1716
02:01:02,180 --> 02:01:06,320
it was one of the
most bloodiest conflicts

1717
02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:08,539
that the marines ever had.

1718
02:01:09,140 --> 02:01:13,079
And I haven't since mentioned
many of them.

1719
02:01:13,079 --> 02:01:17,639
But once the Japanese were

1720
02:01:17,639 --> 02:01:24,439
thoroughly eliminated
on the way back,

1721
02:01:24,439 --> 02:01:29,939
our pilot did say that I work
going to land on Iwo Jima. Well Iwo Jima is

1722
02:01:29,939 --> 02:01:33,279
nothing more than coral sand.

1723
02:01:33,279 --> 02:01:36,179
No trees of any kind

1724
02:01:36,179 --> 02:01:40,739
and it's only got a
small fighter strip. And any

1725
02:01:42,260 --> 02:01:46,179
B-29 trying to land,

1726
02:01:46,179 --> 02:01:48,179
the tower would wave them

1727
02:01:48,179 --> 02:01:50,759
off because they didn't
want you to come here.

1728
02:01:50,759 --> 02:01:55,639
But anyway, B-29 did
land and we were

1729
02:01:55,639 --> 02:02:00,299
able to land and able to get

1730
02:02:00,299 --> 02:02:02,419
some added fuel and close

1731
02:02:02,419 --> 02:02:08,239
our bomb bay doors and then
continue on and then

1732
02:02:08,239 --> 02:02:17,639
land in Iwo Jima  I mean in Tinian and Iwo Jima labeled us

1733
02:02:17,639 --> 02:02:19,179
as 

1734
02:02:19,179 --> 02:02:23,039
their being hospitality for us.

1735
02:02:23,039 --> 02:02:26,979
But just because of that,

1736
02:02:27,820 --> 02:02:32,299
there would be no way that I
would be here talking to you

1737
02:02:32,299 --> 02:02:37,819
today. Because to land at sea,

1738
02:02:38,500 --> 02:02:41,119
that there was in most cases,

1739
02:02:41,119 --> 02:02:45,040
no rescue available.

1740
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:50,859
But I don't know if it's part
of your questions or not,

1741
02:02:50,859 --> 02:02:55,909
but towards the end of the war,

1742
02:02:55,909 --> 02:02:59,979
there was from Iwo
Jima to Japan,

1743
02:02:59,979 --> 02:03:04,639
what is called a life line.

1744
02:03:05,040 --> 02:03:09,599
[undecipherable] would be an
aircraft carrier

1745
02:03:09,599 --> 02:03:13,340
and then cruisers
and destroyers

1746
02:03:13,340 --> 02:03:18,820
and the closest to Japan
would be destroyers.

1747
02:03:18,820 --> 02:03:27,699
And the people at Iwo
Jima also the Navy knew in

1748
02:03:27,699 --> 02:03:31,539
advance that there
were B-29 flying in

1749
02:03:31,539 --> 02:03:38,159
this area and the
submarines, some of them

1750
02:03:38,159 --> 02:03:41,619
within 25 miles of
the coast of Japan.

1751
02:03:41,619 --> 02:03:43,879
And they were spaced,

1752
02:03:43,879 --> 02:03:47,199
possibly about 50 miles apart

1753
02:03:47,199 --> 02:03:53,119
and I gave these submarines a lot of

1754
02:03:53,119 --> 02:03:59,279
credit but because they could
have been hit real easy.

1755
02:03:59,279 --> 02:04:02,639
But we never had to use them,

1756
02:04:02,639 --> 02:04:04,499
but the process was

1757
02:04:04,499 --> 02:04:08,939
that if you were

1758
02:04:08,939 --> 02:04:10,679
hit bad enough or else

1759
02:04:10,679 --> 02:04:13,480
had some malfunction
with your aircraft,

1760
02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:14,899
you couldn't make it back to

1761
02:04:14,899 --> 02:04:18,199
base and you had to land at sea,

1762
02:04:18,199 --> 02:04:21,119
which is called ditching.

1763
02:04:21,400 --> 02:04:25,039
The the radio operator would

1764
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:30,719
press down on his key
and send a solid signal.

1765
02:04:30,719 --> 02:04:40,919
No dots and dashes, a solid signal.
And the submarine would home

1766
02:04:40,919 --> 02:04:45,559
in on the signal and and
and knew the distance and

1767
02:04:45,559 --> 02:04:51,419
also how far away they
were from the flight path,

1768
02:04:51,419 --> 02:04:55,899
and they would correct
themselves and then the plane

1769
02:04:55,899 --> 02:04:58,239
would then they would

1770
02:04:58,239 --> 02:05:04,579
surface when they thought
the time it was right and,

1771
02:05:04,579 --> 02:05:13,619
and then rescue the crew if
they were able to get out.

1772
02:05:13,619 --> 02:05:20,899
But but many times the crews
were not able to get out.

1773
02:05:20,899 --> 02:05:25,699
But there were many
that were saved.

1774
02:05:25,699 --> 02:05:28,439
And many times when you would

1775
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:32,239
ditch at sea the
plane would catch fire

1776
02:05:32,239 --> 02:05:35,139
and part of our training also

1777
02:05:35,139 --> 02:05:40,799
was if you're able to
get out of the plane,

1778
02:05:40,799 --> 02:05:44,759
how are you going to
surround the fire?

1779
02:05:44,759 --> 02:05:53,039
So we did extensive
practicing in Pio Texas

1780
02:05:53,039 --> 02:05:55,519
in swimming pool.

1781
02:05:56,440 --> 02:05:59,020
You would swim underwater

1782
02:05:59,020 --> 02:06:01,739
and when it's time
to get a breath,

1783
02:06:01,739 --> 02:06:03,939
you would flutter up near

1784
02:06:03,939 --> 02:06:06,579
the surface and form
a little pocket of

1785
02:06:06,579 --> 02:06:09,099
air and then take

1786
02:06:09,099 --> 02:06:13,639
a gasp and then swim down
again and then swim away.

1787
02:06:13,639 --> 02:06:17,939
But I don't know how
effective that would be.

1788
02:06:17,939 --> 02:06:22,939
But because the plane would 
expel life rafts

1789
02:06:22,939 --> 02:06:25,099
and I don't know
if they would be

1790
02:06:25,099 --> 02:06:28,779
farther away from
fire or not. Of course,

1791
02:06:28,779 --> 02:06:31,919
if they were in the fire
they would be consumed.

1792
02:06:31,919 --> 02:06:36,019
But what I'm telling you,

1793
02:06:36,019 --> 02:06:37,939
I don't know if it
would work or not,

1794
02:06:37,939 --> 02:06:41,019
but anyway. I was
well prepared for this.

1795
02:06:41,019 --> 02:06:44,919
That's why I was doing
all the extra swimming,

1796
02:06:44,919 --> 02:06:49,399
feeling that if the
occasion ever arose,

1797
02:06:49,480 --> 02:06:53,679
I would be able to do it.

1798
02:06:54,120 --> 02:06:58,999
So what's your greatest memory
while flying in the Pacific?

1799
02:07:02,800 --> 02:07:06,999
I've got a few
that kind of stick with me

1800
02:07:06,999 --> 02:07:14,179
and seeing people die in flames,

1801
02:07:15,300 --> 02:07:22,979
really hits me. When there's
actually nothing you can do.

1802
02:07:24,700 --> 02:07:33,819
I've seen many and on
one of our missions,

1803
02:07:34,220 --> 02:07:40,359
we had to go to Okinawa. But 
because we couldn't

1804
02:07:40,359 --> 02:07:47,660
reach Japan or any
other destination and 

1805
02:07:48,260 --> 02:07:53,599
we landed at Iwo Jima,

1806
02:07:53,599 --> 02:07:56,320
at Okinawa,

1807
02:07:56,320 --> 02:07:58,739
I know I'm stumbling 
a little bit,

1808
02:07:58,739 --> 02:08:00,919
but I'm trying to
get it straight.

1809
02:08:00,919 --> 02:08:06,059
We landed at Ok,

1810
02:08:06,059 --> 02:08:11,759
Okinawa and we had our planet
next to a fighter strip,

1811
02:08:11,759 --> 02:08:14,919
and we actually landed
on this fighter strip

1812
02:08:14,919 --> 02:08:17,659
and we were able to
do it because of

1813
02:08:17,659 --> 02:08:23,419
our good hydraulics and
I'm in up front of the plane

1814
02:08:23,419 --> 02:08:25,899
and what I'm seeing is

1815
02:08:25,899 --> 02:08:34,079
a long line of fighter planes
coming back from a mission

1816
02:08:34,079 --> 02:08:39,499
and these planes are coming in,

1817
02:08:39,620 --> 02:08:45,459
flying at a real low
altitude at the runway

1818
02:08:45,459 --> 02:08:47,699
and when they came to the tower,

1819
02:08:47,699 --> 02:08:50,639
they would shoot
straight up in the air.

1820
02:08:50,639 --> 02:08:53,359
And they would
flip their landing

1821
02:08:53,359 --> 02:08:56,579
here out and may
make a wide circle.

1822
02:08:56,579 --> 02:08:59,779
There must have been
probably about 30

1823
02:08:59,779 --> 02:09:02,879
of these. And they're
all doing this.

1824
02:09:02,879 --> 02:09:07,379
And it was really a great
air show to see all of

1825
02:09:07,379 --> 02:09:12,484
this. And one of these
that's coming down,

1826
02:09:12,484 --> 02:09:16,189
 he's not doing this.

1827
02:09:16,310 --> 02:09:19,429
He's going and going

1828
02:09:20,150 --> 02:09:22,309
and this is right in front of

1829
02:09:22,309 --> 02:09:24,049
me a couple hundred feet away.

1830
02:09:24,049 --> 02:09:32,569
And the plane hits a bank
and then starts on fire.

1831
02:09:32,569 --> 02:09:38,089
And I go over there and
I see this pilot in

1832
02:09:38,089 --> 02:09:43,709
the cockpit being burned

1833
02:09:43,709 --> 02:09:45,649
alive, I don't know
if if he got killed

1834
02:09:45,649 --> 02:09:48,229
with a crash or
else with the fire.

1835
02:09:48,229 --> 02:09:50,689
But one thing that's strange is

1836
02:09:50,689 --> 02:09:55,509
that outside of the plane
was a women's shoe.

1837
02:09:55,620 --> 02:09:59,099
And apparently he had

1838
02:09:59,099 --> 02:10:01,899
a wife or a sweetheart
back in the States,

1839
02:10:01,899 --> 02:10:05,299
and he just wanted to
keep that with him.

1840
02:10:05,299 --> 02:10:09,859
But after seeing this

1841
02:10:09,859 --> 02:10:12,399
and there's absolutely
nothing I could do,

1842
02:10:12,399 --> 02:10:14,999
I just walked away.

1843
02:10:14,999 --> 02:10:18,139
I couldn't look at it anymore.

1844
02:10:20,020 --> 02:10:28,779
And then on one of
our POW missions,

1845
02:10:31,740 --> 02:10:36,140
our military was
also in Shanghai and

1846
02:10:36,780 --> 02:10:41,179
there was a POW camp in

1847
02:10:41,179 --> 02:10:46,059
Shanghai and our
mission was to go to

1848
02:10:46,059 --> 02:10:52,959
that Shanghai POW camp and

1849
02:10:52,959 --> 02:10:57,660
do the same thing and drop the
food and medical supplies

1850
02:10:58,780 --> 02:11:04,840
just before coming to Okinawa,

1851
02:11:04,840 --> 02:11:09,619
which was on the flight
route, we blew an engine.

1852
02:11:10,860 --> 02:11:15,359
And usually as you're flying,

1853
02:11:15,359 --> 02:11:17,279
if you have any type of

1854
02:11:17,279 --> 02:11:19,439
malfunction what you need to

1855
02:11:19,439 --> 02:11:22,469
do is to make a landing
as soon as possible.

1856
02:11:22,469 --> 02:11:24,729
Well, we did make

1857
02:11:24,729 --> 02:11:32,309
a landing on this fighter
strip and we parked our plane,

1858
02:11:32,309 --> 02:11:38,939
and what we needed to do do
to get an engine from Tinian,

1859
02:11:38,939 --> 02:11:44,820
which meant that we spent
about two weeks on Okinawa.

1860
02:11:44,820 --> 02:11:46,939
And during that time,

1861
02:11:46,939 --> 02:11:51,519
we were the only B-29 there.

1862
02:11:51,519 --> 02:11:53,499
And what they were doing,

1863
02:11:53,499 --> 02:11:58,919
they were bringing
in POWs from Japan

1864
02:11:59,480 --> 02:12:03,079
and it was only a matter
of a few feet away

1865
02:12:03,079 --> 02:12:09,480
and this plane
comes in and I'm looking at 

1866
02:12:09,480 --> 02:12:12,479
these POWs coming out of

1867
02:12:12,479 --> 02:12:19,619
the plane and they're looking
at the tail of my plane,

1868
02:12:19,619 --> 02:12:21,359
you know the Circle X.

1869
02:12:21,359 --> 02:12:24,440
And apparently that
they had recognized

1870
02:12:24,440 --> 02:12:26,319
that from some of

1871
02:12:26,319 --> 02:12:28,599
the bombing missions,
from our bomb group.

1872
02:12:28,599 --> 02:12:32,779
Well, I went over
there to talk to them,

1873
02:12:32,779 --> 02:12:42,140
and believe me, they were
tortured and brutalized, and 

1874
02:12:42,140 --> 02:12:48,859
they were skin and bone
and their clothing was all

1875
02:12:48,859 --> 02:12:55,399
tattered and they
were hugging me and

1876
02:12:55,399 --> 02:13:02,899
then talking to me.
And that hits me

1877
02:13:02,899 --> 02:13:05,179
as to one of the things

1878
02:13:05,179 --> 02:13:12,659
that people that have gone
through the war and then

1879
02:13:12,659 --> 02:13:16,399
showing gratitude
to another person

1880
02:13:18,960 --> 02:13:26,280
because of this life
saving occupation of Iwo Jima,

1881
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:33,779
I have met several Marines.
Any Marine function

1882
02:13:33,779 --> 02:13:43,189
I always attend. I've met, one time

1883
02:13:43,670 --> 02:13:50,789
I was in [undecipherable] doing something
and here's a guy

1884
02:13:50,789 --> 02:13:54,109
coming towards me
and he's wearing

1885
02:13:54,109 --> 02:13:59,149
a hat Iwo Jima. And I said hi

1886
02:13:59,149 --> 02:14:03,929
and I walked a few steps and
turned around and so did he.

1887
02:14:03,929 --> 02:14:08,829
And we turned around
and I said to him,

1888
02:14:08,829 --> 02:14:12,849
were you in Iwo Jima? He said yes.

1889
02:14:12,849 --> 02:14:16,389
And I said were you in the
battle? He said yes.

1890
02:14:18,470 --> 02:14:23,209
And we talked about a
few things. And also

1891
02:14:23,209 --> 02:14:27,469
I have grandchildren are
highly interested in

1892
02:14:27,469 --> 02:14:32,009
military and we visit Parris
Island which is a Marine base.

1893
02:14:32,009 --> 02:14:36,009
And we go through all of

1894
02:14:36,009 --> 02:14:42,589
the artifacts and also the
history of the Marines.

1895
02:14:46,110 --> 02:14:50,429
And at one time when I was there, well
when you first get in,

1896
02:14:50,429 --> 02:14:56,649
they ask you, I mean enter the museum.

1897
02:14:56,649 --> 02:14:59,069
Well I know the base first,

1898
02:14:59,069 --> 02:15:04,969
you have to show your ID
because it's heavily guarded,

1899
02:15:04,969 --> 02:15:07,739
and I would show them my

1900
02:15:07,739 --> 02:15:09,719
South Carolina driver's license

1901
02:15:09,719 --> 02:15:11,619
and they would tell me to pull

1902
02:15:11,619 --> 02:15:14,079
over to the side. And then

1903
02:15:14,079 --> 02:15:16,219
a Marine would come

1904
02:15:16,219 --> 02:15:18,379
and quiz me about
different things,

1905
02:15:18,379 --> 02:15:21,399
wanting to know why
I'm in here and

1906
02:15:21,399 --> 02:15:26,919
we are here for the museum which
is open to the public.

1907
02:15:26,919 --> 02:15:31,899
Of course, they do screen
pretty closely what to

1908
02:15:31,899 --> 02:15:38,259
do and when I've entered the museum

1909
02:15:38,259 --> 02:15:43,739
that they quizzed me and I told
them that I was a B-29er

1910
02:15:43,739 --> 02:15:48,679
 and I'm familiar
with with Iwo Jima

1911
02:15:48,679 --> 02:15:55,139
and we walked around
and this guy,

1912
02:15:55,139 --> 02:15:57,419
he went upstairs to talk to

1913
02:15:57,419 --> 02:16:03,100
the manager of the
museum, probably curator.

1914
02:16:03,100 --> 02:16:05,919
I don't know. More
than likely, yes.

1915
02:16:05,919 --> 02:16:10,439
And and and then he come
down, he says, look,

1916
02:16:10,439 --> 02:16:12,339
I want you to come upstairs here.

1917
02:16:12,339 --> 02:16:20,420
And there was a Marine
there that was on Iwo Jima. And

1918
02:16:20,420 --> 02:16:25,659
he was in a wheelchair and
his son was there with him,

1919
02:16:25,659 --> 02:16:28,879
and they did make

1920
02:16:28,879 --> 02:16:31,929
frequent visits to
the museum. And we had

1921
02:16:31,929 --> 02:16:40,209
a discussion about the
Marines, what they did. And

1922
02:16:42,210 --> 02:16:46,609
one of the most important things to

1923
02:16:46,609 --> 02:16:50,890
as far as Marines
go to me is, I did

1924
02:16:50,890 --> 02:16:53,330
tell you that I do

1925
02:16:54,330 --> 02:16:59,190
attend all of these functions
symposium with Marines.

1926
02:16:59,190 --> 02:17:02,729
Well, the Yorktown in

1927
02:17:02,729 --> 02:17:05,250
Mount Pleasant is strictly

1928
02:17:05,250 --> 02:17:09,049
Navy. Of course Marines are
part of the Navy.

1929
02:17:10,410 --> 02:17:16,859
They were celebrating the
75th anniversary of Iwo Jima.

1930
02:17:16,859 --> 02:17:19,800
And what he invited was

1931
02:17:21,440 --> 02:17:25,260
a gentleman that was

1932
02:17:25,260 --> 02:17:29,159
awarded to the Medal of
Honor, Woody Williams,

1933
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:33,360
he was there also.

1934
02:17:33,640 --> 02:17:36,200
And it was a great function.

1935
02:17:36,200 --> 02:17:38,680
I went with one of
my neighbors and

1936
02:17:38,680 --> 02:17:42,120
we were more or less
sitting in the background.

1937
02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:47,919
And the Marines, the marines were doing
their celebrating, and

1938
02:17:48,240 --> 02:17:53,160
Woody Williams was sitting
by himself in the first row. And

1939
02:17:54,680 --> 02:17:56,799
I said to my neighbor, you know,

1940
02:17:56,799 --> 02:17:58,000
I'm going to go
there and talk to

1941
02:17:58,000 --> 02:18:01,439
this guy, so I went over to him

1942
02:18:01,439 --> 02:18:06,879
and I introduced
myself. You know I'm a B-29er

1943
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:11,500
and I asked him,

1944
02:18:11,500 --> 02:18:14,340
you'll be the awarder of
the Medal of Honor.

1945
02:18:14,340 --> 02:18:16,500
And how did you get it?

1946
02:18:16,500 --> 02:18:22,619
Well, he was a flamethrower and he had

1947
02:18:22,619 --> 02:18:26,239
the gun and behind him

1948
02:18:26,239 --> 02:18:30,420
were two other Marines were
carrying the fuel tanks.

1949
02:18:30,420 --> 02:18:36,060
So he went from hole to hole and

1950
02:18:36,060 --> 02:18:38,210
he would shoot the flame into

1951
02:18:38,210 --> 02:18:41,870
these holes. And
never got wounded,

1952
02:18:41,870 --> 02:18:47,210
but he was a prime target

1953
02:18:47,210 --> 02:18:52,810
because the Japanese
were all in,

1954
02:18:52,810 --> 02:18:56,810
in dugouts and the Marines

1955
02:18:57,810 --> 02:19:01,549
came ashore and they
were prime targets

1956
02:19:01,549 --> 02:19:04,909
and, and they were
mowed down big time.

1957
02:19:04,909 --> 02:19:07,269
But he was brave enough

1958
02:19:07,269 --> 02:19:10,130
to stand a wreck
and do this thing.

1959
02:19:10,130 --> 02:19:15,170
And I told him, I
said, you know,

1960
02:19:15,170 --> 02:19:17,990
I really need to thank
you for what you

1961
02:19:17,990 --> 02:19:21,310
did. He said, you know,

1962
02:19:21,310 --> 02:19:26,270
you're the first one that
ever told me this. And I said,

1963
02:19:26,270 --> 02:19:28,090
well, I think it's
kind of hard for me

1964
02:19:28,090 --> 02:19:30,190
to believe. And I said, you know,

1965
02:19:30,190 --> 02:19:33,310
I was only 19 when I was

1966
02:19:33,310 --> 02:19:38,750
flying. And he said we
all were. And he said,

1967
02:19:38,750 --> 02:19:45,769
I need to thank you. He
said it to me for flying 

1968
02:19:45,769 --> 02:19:53,590
B-29 and because after
his invasion of Iwo Jima,

1969
02:19:53,590 --> 02:20:00,449
they would have to go to
another Japanese held island.

1970
02:20:00,720 --> 02:20:07,119
And that kind of
put the end to him.

1971
02:20:07,119 --> 02:20:12,959
But there were 14 Marines
that were awarded

1972
02:20:12,959 --> 02:20:18,739
medals of honors and all
13 of them have died.

1973
02:20:18,739 --> 02:20:21,060
He was the only one,
he just recently

1974
02:20:21,060 --> 02:20:24,200
died and he was
highly recognized.

1975
02:20:24,200 --> 02:20:26,340
In fact, when he died,

1976
02:20:26,340 --> 02:20:29,760
it was only a matter, maybe
six months ago when he died.

1977
02:20:29,760 --> 02:20:32,240
And it was kind of sad for

1978
02:20:32,240 --> 02:20:34,880
me because I have
talked to him several

1979
02:20:34,880 --> 02:20:37,780
times and he was

1980
02:20:37,780 --> 02:20:39,519
actually brought to the Capitol

1981
02:20:39,519 --> 02:20:42,060
and he laid in, state there.

1982
02:20:42,060 --> 02:20:45,460
And I think that was
really something great

1983
02:20:45,460 --> 02:20:49,479
to acknowledge a man like him.

1984
02:20:49,479 --> 02:20:52,920
That's wonderful. So what made

1985
02:20:52,920 --> 02:20:57,200
you want to take photographs
when you were overseas?

1986
02:20:57,200 --> 02:20:59,000
And what kind of a camera did

1987
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:00,280
you use? Can you
tell me about that?

1988
02:21:00,280 --> 02:21:04,360
Photography was my hobby.

1989
02:21:05,040 --> 02:21:09,579
And I had a simple box camera

1990
02:21:09,579 --> 02:21:14,000
and the film had a
paper backing on it,

1991
02:21:14,000 --> 02:21:16,260
and I had a couple
of rolls of film,

1992
02:21:16,260 --> 02:21:24,200
and as I took pictures
overseas, I ran out of film.

1993
02:21:24,200 --> 02:21:28,839
So, how do you get the film?

1994
02:21:30,200 --> 02:21:35,299
I got to be friendly
with the fire chief,

1995
02:21:35,299 --> 02:21:39,840
there was a fire station then
near our bomb group,

1996
02:21:39,840 --> 02:21:44,220
and I got to know
him quite well well.

1997
02:21:44,220 --> 02:21:47,899
Well his hobby was also photography,

1998
02:21:47,899 --> 02:21:51,040
and he had a dark room with

1999
02:21:51,040 --> 02:21:53,580
all the equipment for developing

2000
02:21:53,580 --> 02:21:56,899
and printing and also enlarging.

2001
02:21:56,980 --> 02:22:02,260
So talking to him, he
told me to go over to

2002
02:22:02,260 --> 02:22:05,519
the reconnaissance division at

2003
02:22:05,519 --> 02:22:11,099
the airfield and trying
to get a roll of film.

2004
02:22:11,220 --> 02:22:15,959
Well the film did that had, I was using, was

2005
02:22:15,959 --> 02:22:18,500
not a high grade film,

2006
02:22:18,500 --> 02:22:28,100
but the reconnaissance division
uses this film for flying

2007
02:22:28,100 --> 02:22:33,719
over Japan and photographing

2008
02:22:33,719 --> 02:22:35,320
the different areas so they

2009
02:22:35,320 --> 02:22:41,860
could determine where the
next bomb ray would be.

2010
02:22:42,020 --> 02:22:47,339
Usually, if a single
plane flew over Japan,

2011
02:22:47,420 --> 02:22:52,820
that there was no
ground reaction,

2012
02:22:52,820 --> 02:22:54,479
they were untouched.

2013
02:22:54,479 --> 02:22:57,300
Well, the film that
I got from them was

2014
02:22:57,300 --> 02:23:04,780
a high density film
in a vacuum can

2015
02:23:04,780 --> 02:23:08,079
and it was about 6 inches wide.

2016
02:23:08,079 --> 02:23:10,999
So there's no way it's going
to fit in my camera.

2017
02:23:10,999 --> 02:23:14,339
So what I would do
was to practice

2018
02:23:14,339 --> 02:23:19,519
cutting the same size
film that my camera took.

2019
02:23:19,519 --> 02:23:23,900
And of course, I had to
do it in total darkness.

2020
02:23:25,340 --> 02:23:27,600
Once I was able to do this,

2021
02:23:27,600 --> 02:23:30,520
I would put the paper
backing on it and

2022
02:23:30,520 --> 02:23:34,780
then load my camera
and I'm good to go.

2023
02:23:36,620 --> 02:23:38,900
And do you remember the make of

2024
02:23:38,900 --> 02:23:40,679
your camera? What
type of camera?

2025
02:23:40,679 --> 02:23:45,279
Yes it was a Kodak, I believe
it was a model 620.

2026
02:23:45,279 --> 02:23:49,179
It was a cheap type
of box camera.

2027
02:23:49,179 --> 02:23:52,220
You could pull it
apart and it would be

2028
02:23:52,220 --> 02:23:55,979
very easy to load
it and everything.

2029
02:23:55,979 --> 02:23:58,799
Did you have to hide

2030
02:23:58,799 --> 02:24:02,500
your photos from sensors
or anything like that?

2031
02:24:02,500 --> 02:24:05,299
No, no, no.

2032
02:24:05,420 --> 02:24:11,759
We could do just
about anything as far

2033
02:24:11,759 --> 02:24:17,280
as jurisdiction goes and

2034
02:24:17,280 --> 02:24:20,579
following the rules
while being overseas,

2035
02:24:20,900 --> 02:24:25,179
we were untouched. We could

2036
02:24:25,179 --> 02:24:27,900
dress the way we
wanted to dress, and

2037
02:24:29,900 --> 02:24:34,619
it's not like the way it
would be say in the states.

2038
02:24:34,619 --> 02:24:37,970
In other words, we
had great freedom.

2039
02:24:37,970 --> 02:24:39,650
More freedom when you were

2040
02:24:39,650 --> 02:24:41,589
overseas than you did
when you were in training?

2041
02:24:41,589 --> 02:24:43,750
Oh, no question about it.

2042
02:24:44,030 --> 02:24:47,530
Were there some
memorable pictures

2043
02:24:47,530 --> 02:24:50,990
that you took? You
remember taking?

2044
02:24:53,350 --> 02:24:56,610
I think probably
all of them are.

2045
02:24:56,610 --> 02:25:01,670
I really can't, well, there's
one that I really like.

2046
02:25:01,670 --> 02:25:07,569
It's a picture of
me the way I live,

2047
02:25:07,569 --> 02:25:12,290
I lived or dressed
when being overseas.

2048
02:25:12,290 --> 02:25:14,249
There was no dress code.

2049
02:25:14,249 --> 02:25:18,309
You could wear
whatever you please.

2050
02:25:18,670 --> 02:25:22,929
So when you were serving,

2051
02:25:22,929 --> 02:25:25,390
whether it was in the
states or overseas,

2052
02:25:25,390 --> 02:25:26,989
do you remember interacting with

2053
02:25:26,989 --> 02:25:29,550
women auxiliary units or women

2054
02:25:29,550 --> 02:25:34,150
who were in the military at
all? With other servicemen

2055
02:25:34,150 --> 02:25:35,590
you mean?  With women.

2056
02:25:35,590 --> 02:25:41,690
Women who were in
service. Personally,

2057
02:25:41,690 --> 02:25:45,329
I never had any interaction
with any woman.

2058
02:25:45,329 --> 02:25:47,229
I know that there were

2059
02:25:47,229 --> 02:25:52,310
women that did great
work in the war,

2060
02:25:53,590 --> 02:25:59,229
especially the woman,
it's called Wafs.

2061
02:26:01,830 --> 02:26:09,049
The most important thing that
they did was to transport

2062
02:26:09,049 --> 02:26:12,810
fighter planes
from the States to

2063
02:26:12,810 --> 02:26:17,469
Russia the fighter planes
that the Russians loved.

2064
02:26:17,469 --> 02:26:20,349
And our pilots didn't like
them one bit because

2065
02:26:20,349 --> 02:26:23,270
we had fighter
planes far superior.

2066
02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:26,230
It was a P-39 and it

2067
02:26:26,230 --> 02:26:29,669
was made by Curtis Wright
in Buffalo, New York.

2068
02:26:29,669 --> 02:26:35,950
And these women would pick
up the plane, fly to Alaska.

2069
02:26:35,950 --> 02:26:38,790
And either they fly to

2070
02:26:38,790 --> 02:26:42,790
Russia or Russia would come
and pick up the planes.

2071
02:26:44,890 --> 02:26:48,049
You mentioned the
parachute packers too,

2072
02:26:48,049 --> 02:26:49,729
so you knew that there
were there were women

2073
02:26:49,729 --> 02:26:52,469
who worked packing
the parachutes. Yes.

2074
02:26:52,469 --> 02:26:56,650
Did you ever did you
ever talk to them? No

2075
02:26:56,650 --> 02:27:01,550
No. That was only
in Pio, Texas.

2076
02:27:01,550 --> 02:27:03,629
As far as overseas

2077
02:27:03,629 --> 02:27:09,569
goes there there were no
women at all over there.

2078
02:27:09,569 --> 02:27:10,969
Well, well, there were

2079
02:27:10,969 --> 02:27:13,810
some nurses but but
other than that,

2080
02:27:13,810 --> 02:27:16,569
it was strictly all male.

2081
02:27:16,569 --> 02:27:21,170
Did you ever have to
go to the infirmary?

2082
02:27:21,170 --> 02:27:27,049
Did you ever interact with
the medical staff base?

2083
02:27:27,049 --> 02:27:34,670
No. No. But as far as
any type of thing,

2084
02:27:34,670 --> 02:27:38,129
what was very
common was diarrhea

2085
02:27:38,129 --> 02:27:46,209
from food that was too old
or not the proper mix,

2086
02:27:46,209 --> 02:27:48,750
but I avoided all of that stuff.

2087
02:27:48,750 --> 02:27:52,909
And mostly it was
chocolate, chocolate milk.

2088
02:27:52,909 --> 02:27:55,190
The chocolate milk was bad or

2089
02:27:55,190 --> 02:27:57,770
the chocolate milk was
something? Contaminated 

2090
02:27:57,770 --> 02:27:59,289
possibly.

2091
02:28:00,260 --> 02:28:03,420
What about army chaplains?

2092
02:28:03,420 --> 02:28:04,759
I was curious about this because

2093
02:28:04,759 --> 02:28:07,079
you mentioned your
Catholic faith.

2094
02:28:07,079 --> 02:28:10,059
Was there a chaplain
or someone else assigned to your unit?

2095
02:28:10,059 --> 02:28:13,420
Well yes.

2096
02:28:14,300 --> 02:28:18,140
The chaplain was
actually a priest

2097
02:28:18,140 --> 02:28:27,580
and overseas there was actually 

2098
02:28:27,580 --> 02:28:31,899
a chapel for services.

2099
02:28:31,899 --> 02:28:34,840
It was shared by both Protestant

2100
02:28:34,840 --> 02:28:40,599
and other religions of any kind.

2101
02:28:40,599 --> 02:28:44,420
But I do recall that,

2102
02:28:44,420 --> 02:28:50,360
well, I always went to
church every Sunday.

2103
02:28:50,360 --> 02:28:52,940
And what church was like,

2104
02:28:53,580 --> 02:28:58,879
they would park a truck out
in the field and drop the

2105
02:28:58,879 --> 02:29:02,539
tailgate and spread a cloth

2106
02:29:02,539 --> 02:29:06,560
across the tailgate and and,

2107
02:29:06,560 --> 02:29:08,400
and serve mass off of that

2108
02:29:08,400 --> 02:29:10,619
and we would sit on the ground.

2109
02:29:10,619 --> 02:29:16,620
But also as far
as our crew goes,

2110
02:29:16,780 --> 02:29:20,039
I believe even to this day,

2111
02:29:20,039 --> 02:29:22,699
that I was the only Christian.

2112
02:29:25,260 --> 02:29:31,579
In preparation for a mission
10:30 in the evening

2113
02:29:31,579 --> 02:29:35,959
well, I specify
evening because we're

2114
02:29:35,959 --> 02:29:41,459
talking about daylight
missions to Japan.

2115
02:29:41,459 --> 02:29:46,220
At 10:30 I would attend

2116
02:29:46,220 --> 02:29:55,779
and attend mass and receive Holy
Communion and then at the very end, the priest or chaplain,

2117
02:29:55,779 --> 02:29:57,880
whatever you want to call him,

2118
02:29:57,880 --> 02:30:01,599
he would say drop to

2119
02:30:01,599 --> 02:30:03,520
your knees and thank

2120
02:30:03,520 --> 02:30:06,820
the Good Lord that
you are still here, and

2121
02:30:06,820 --> 02:30:13,480
that you will return.
And at takeoff time

2122
02:30:13,480 --> 02:30:19,280
there was also a chaplain
alongside the runway, that

2123
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:27,500
would bless each plane
as we're taken off. So truthfully,

2124
02:30:27,500 --> 02:30:31,380
religion overseas was
a big part of me.

2125
02:30:31,380 --> 02:30:34,060
You mentioned you were
the only Christian,

2126
02:30:34,060 --> 02:30:35,959
how did you know, did you talk

2127
02:30:35,959 --> 02:30:37,999
to the other members
of your crew about religion?

2128
02:30:37,999 --> 02:30:42,599
We did have discussions and our

2129
02:30:42,599 --> 02:30:48,980
bombardier was an atheist and and he was so proud,
he used to brag about

2130
02:30:48,980 --> 02:30:58,400
being an Atheist. And as
far as the rest goes,

2131
02:30:58,400 --> 02:31:00,920
I don't really kno,
too much about them.

2132
02:31:00,920 --> 02:31:03,519
but I know that they've
and they never turned

2133
02:31:03,519 --> 02:31:07,980
any religious services at all,

2134
02:31:09,460 --> 02:31:12,120
but being strong in religion,

2135
02:31:12,120 --> 02:31:14,599
I know our CFC,

2136
02:31:14,599 --> 02:31:18,060
our central fire
control, the gunner,

2137
02:31:18,060 --> 02:31:22,760
he was possibly about maybe

2138
02:31:22,760 --> 02:31:28,420
in his late '20s and he was
married with two children, and 

2139
02:31:29,780 --> 02:31:36,420
he would always go to
town, and seek out companions,

2140
02:31:36,420 --> 02:31:41,760
and I feel that if he 
had any religion,

2141
02:31:41,760 --> 02:31:46,479
he certainly wouldn't do this.
If he had its back home.

2142
02:31:46,479 --> 02:31:50,840
But I never got into
stuff like that though.

2143
02:31:50,840 --> 02:31:53,880
Did you have any
interactions with

2144
02:31:53,880 --> 02:31:55,899
native people that lived

2145
02:31:55,899 --> 02:31:59,300
in the islands where
you were serving?

2146
02:32:01,860 --> 02:32:04,619
Not really, a whole lot.

2147
02:32:04,619 --> 02:32:07,600
I did try to take photographs.

2148
02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:11,499
Well, the natives, by the way,

2149
02:32:11,900 --> 02:32:15,019
we're dark in color.

2150
02:32:17,620 --> 02:32:21,060
And it seems as though
every day they

2151
02:32:21,060 --> 02:32:25,439
would be whiter
and whiter to us,

2152
02:32:25,439 --> 02:32:29,739
but they were gathered together

2153
02:32:29,739 --> 02:32:34,459
into a compound and it
was heavily guarded

2154
02:32:34,459 --> 02:32:39,200
and I did attempt to
take pictures of them,

2155
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:42,100
and I failed a few times,

2156
02:32:42,100 --> 02:32:44,639
but I was able to
get a few pictures,

2157
02:32:44,639 --> 02:32:47,759
and then I recall

2158
02:32:47,759 --> 02:32:50,419
one time when I was
walking down the street,

2159
02:32:50,419 --> 02:32:54,980
there were some native woman
with a military and

2160
02:32:54,980 --> 02:32:56,780
and I took a picture of them

2161
02:32:56,780 --> 02:33:03,300
and they did say don't
show Japanese soldiers.

2162
02:33:03,300 --> 02:33:06,160
Apparently, the Japanese were

2163
02:33:06,160 --> 02:33:08,860
really exploiting the woman.

2164
02:33:09,880 --> 02:33:12,600
So they were gathered
in a compound,

2165
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:15,520
was that because the
military had taken over

2166
02:33:15,520 --> 02:33:22,740
all the other buildings
that were there?  Just about 

2167
02:33:22,740 --> 02:33:26,800
as far as the buildings go,

2168
02:33:27,280 --> 02:33:30,100
I don't believe I I've ever seen

2169
02:33:30,100 --> 02:33:34,000
a structure where
a family lived.

2170
02:33:35,120 --> 02:33:39,220
Any building that
that was there was

2171
02:33:39,220 --> 02:33:43,759
actually done by the military.

2172
02:33:43,759 --> 02:33:50,440
And I know that in the compound,

2173
02:33:51,210 --> 02:33:55,410
they really weren't
treated that that well.

2174
02:33:55,410 --> 02:33:57,809
They would just
gathered together

2175
02:33:57,809 --> 02:34:03,750
and as far as the bathroom
goes, and I've seen it,

2176
02:34:03,750 --> 02:34:06,010
that they would
scoop out a hole in

2177
02:34:06,010 --> 02:34:09,849
the ground and then
do whatever they had

2178
02:34:09,849 --> 02:34:16,550
to do and then
recover it. And yeah.

2179
02:34:16,550 --> 02:34:18,530
And yeah, I know you didn't speak with them,

2180
02:34:18,530 --> 02:34:20,850
so you don't know if
they spoke English or if

2181
02:34:20,850 --> 02:34:24,249
they had their? Well it was more or
less broken English.

2182
02:34:24,249 --> 02:34:30,090
Okay. I don't know if they
had a native language or not.

2183
02:34:32,490 --> 02:34:35,510
Now, you mentioned that

2184
02:34:35,510 --> 02:34:39,070
you were already engaged

2185
02:34:39,070 --> 02:34:42,229
to marry Marie,
your future wife.

2186
02:34:42,229 --> 02:34:44,770
You had gotten engaged when you

2187
02:34:44,770 --> 02:34:48,170
went home before you
were shipped overseas.

2188
02:34:48,170 --> 02:34:51,009
Can you tell me
about meeting her

2189
02:34:51,009 --> 02:34:53,990
and then also about
how you kept in touch,

2190
02:34:53,990 --> 02:34:56,789
how you sent letters
maybe during the war?

2191
02:34:56,789 --> 02:35:02,970
Okay. Well, how I met Marie well
across the street from me

2192
02:35:02,970 --> 02:35:10,509
was a woman the same age, Mildred 

2193
02:35:10,509 --> 02:35:13,050
Hules was her name. And she was

2194
02:35:13,050 --> 02:35:17,370
always more or less
trying to pursue me,

2195
02:35:17,370 --> 02:35:20,990
but I didn't have the least
bit of interest in her.

2196
02:35:22,670 --> 02:35:26,250
A friend of mine and I were
walking in the evening,

2197
02:35:26,250 --> 02:35:29,049
one time down the street,

2198
02:35:29,049 --> 02:35:35,070
and Milly Hules and 
Marie were walking together,

2199
02:35:35,070 --> 02:35:38,590
and we met and

2200
02:35:39,710 --> 02:35:43,109
we introduced each
other and then

2201
02:35:43,109 --> 02:35:46,529
we decided that we
would walk Marie home.

2202
02:35:46,529 --> 02:35:52,070
Well, then we did. We

2203
02:35:52,070 --> 02:35:54,670
talked a little bit and said how 

2204
02:35:54,670 --> 02:35:58,149
about double dating next Sunday,

2205
02:35:58,149 --> 02:36:00,090
and we'll go and see a movie.

2206
02:36:00,090 --> 02:36:05,310
And they agreed to it. Qnd we
will meet at Marie's house.

2207
02:36:06,110 --> 02:36:08,770
So my buddy came over to get me

2208
02:36:08,770 --> 02:36:14,770
and we both walked over to
Marie's house. And we met,

2209
02:36:14,770 --> 02:36:18,350
and who's going to go with who? I mean

2210
02:36:21,910 --> 02:36:24,590
Milly Hules thought that

2211
02:36:24,590 --> 02:36:26,810
I was going to pick
her, but I didn't.

2212
02:36:26,810 --> 02:36:29,409
So, I took Marie.

2213
02:36:29,409 --> 02:36:31,630
And then we went out,

2214
02:36:31,630 --> 02:36:33,569
and then after the movie,

2215
02:36:33,569 --> 02:36:36,730
we stopped in and had a Sunday

2216
02:36:36,730 --> 02:36:40,109
and then we walked
Marie back home.

2217
02:36:40,230 --> 02:36:43,050
And I asked her if
she would want to go

2218
02:36:43,050 --> 02:36:46,170
out again next week,

2219
02:36:46,170 --> 02:36:50,949
and more or less to do the
same thing. And she said yes.

2220
02:36:53,070 --> 02:36:58,154
So from then on, we kept
dating and dating.

2221
02:36:58,154 --> 02:37:05,359
Well, once I I left
for the service,

2222
02:37:05,520 --> 02:37:08,059
she was still available.

2223
02:37:08,059 --> 02:37:15,559
So my friend that was with me
when we were double dating,

2224
02:37:15,760 --> 02:37:21,180
he used to go to her house
and try to date her.

2225
02:37:21,180 --> 02:37:23,380
And of course, she
turned it down.

2226
02:37:23,380 --> 02:37:31,540
And my brother, he used to
go from woman to woman.

2227
02:37:31,540 --> 02:37:33,740
You know that that was
one of his things.

2228
02:37:33,740 --> 02:37:39,319
And when he would
discharge and I was gone,

2229
02:37:41,280 --> 02:37:44,500
he went to see Marie and

2230
02:37:44,500 --> 02:37:48,859
asked if she would
go out with him.

2231
02:37:48,859 --> 02:37:54,000
And he said that I did not have

2232
02:37:54,000 --> 02:37:57,040
much experience dating woman.

2233
02:37:57,040 --> 02:38:00,679
And he would like to go with
her and she wouldn't go.

2234
02:38:00,679 --> 02:38:08,960
And I know that she did
turn down several men.

2235
02:38:08,960 --> 02:38:12,280
But she did write to me a lot.

2236
02:38:12,280 --> 02:38:15,280
And whenever I had a chance,

2237
02:38:15,280 --> 02:38:18,460
I would phone her
and we would talk

2238
02:38:18,460 --> 02:38:24,419
and I always
communicated with her,

2239
02:38:24,419 --> 02:38:27,579
and never with my
mother and father,

2240
02:38:27,579 --> 02:38:30,579
because she actually
turned out to be number

2241
02:38:30,579 --> 02:38:33,599
one. And the same thing,

2242
02:38:33,599 --> 02:38:39,140
when I got back from
Tinian to Oakland,

2243
02:38:39,140 --> 02:38:42,020
California, the first thing

2244
02:38:42,020 --> 02:38:45,480
I did was to send her
a telegram to her.

2245
02:38:45,760 --> 02:38:50,039
Did you save any of the
letters she wrote to you?

2246
02:38:51,560 --> 02:38:58,680
She did save some. And in
fact, I didn't notice,

2247
02:38:58,680 --> 02:39:02,660
but they were loving

2248
02:39:02,660 --> 02:39:08,899
letters and the wording
came from my heart,

2249
02:39:08,899 --> 02:39:12,280
and I never knew she had these.

2250
02:39:12,280 --> 02:39:14,360
And after she passed away,

2251
02:39:14,360 --> 02:39:17,320
I started to go
through well she kept

2252
02:39:17,320 --> 02:39:22,099
a journal and and
it happened to run

2253
02:39:22,099 --> 02:39:26,199
across one paper where

2254
02:39:26,199 --> 02:39:30,980
I had written to her with
strong terms of love.

2255
02:39:30,980 --> 02:39:35,560
And when she died,

2256
02:39:35,560 --> 02:39:37,380
I was the last person

2257
02:39:37,380 --> 02:39:40,700
to say goodbye to
her at the coffin,

2258
02:39:40,700 --> 02:39:47,120
and what I did was take this
paper and I put it with her.

2259
02:39:47,120 --> 02:39:53,000
And what and actually what
that amounted to was,

2260
02:39:53,480 --> 02:39:56,680
may God keep you safe for me.

2261
02:39:56,680 --> 02:39:59,859
And here I'm in the
war zone and I'm

2262
02:39:59,859 --> 02:40:03,720
thinking more of her
than that of myself.

2263
02:40:03,720 --> 02:40:07,919
But that is with her right now.

2264
02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:12,439
Did she tell you while
you were serving

2265
02:40:12,439 --> 02:40:15,939
overseas what her experience
was like at home?

2266
02:40:15,939 --> 02:40:19,439
What was she what was it
like on the home front?

2267
02:40:19,439 --> 02:40:22,259
She never said really too much.

2268
02:40:22,259 --> 02:40:26,120
With the exception of being

2269
02:40:26,120 --> 02:40:30,440
pursued by suitors more
than anything else.

2270
02:40:30,440 --> 02:40:38,480
But she was preparing to get
married without any doubt.

2271
02:40:39,960 --> 02:40:44,579
So tell me about your experience
of the end of the war.

2272
02:40:44,579 --> 02:40:49,840
How did you find out about
the bombings of Pearl Harbor,

2273
02:40:49,840 --> 02:40:53,600
excuse me, not Pearl Harbor
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

2274
02:40:53,600 --> 02:40:55,800
and what was that like?

2275
02:40:55,800 --> 02:41:00,659
Yeah, well, on the way
to the flight line,

2276
02:41:00,659 --> 02:41:02,839
well, we always went by truck.

2277
02:41:02,839 --> 02:41:06,380
And usually the
Gunners would go first

2278
02:41:06,380 --> 02:41:10,700
to check the amount
of ammunition

2279
02:41:10,700 --> 02:41:12,319
and then I would leave

2280
02:41:12,319 --> 02:41:16,000
about an hour and a half
later with the officers.

2281
02:41:17,840 --> 02:41:20,400
And on the way to the flightline

2282
02:41:20,400 --> 02:41:24,100
was a compound, heavily guarded.

2283
02:41:24,100 --> 02:41:27,440
It was the 509 bomb group.

2284
02:41:29,160 --> 02:41:31,260
And it seemed strange,

2285
02:41:31,260 --> 02:41:33,720
it was up on the
side of the hill and

2286
02:41:33,760 --> 02:41:37,359
we never saw any of them fly.

2287
02:41:37,640 --> 02:41:43,759
They didn't have any plane
designated to our knowledge and

2288
02:41:45,920 --> 02:41:49,700
it did bother us quite
a bit that they were

2289
02:41:49,700 --> 02:41:54,680
there. And of course that was group that did  the

2290
02:41:54,680 --> 02:42:02,220
nuclear bombing. And what was the
other part of the question?

2291
02:42:02,220 --> 02:42:04,000
What do you remember about your experience?

2292
02:42:04,000 --> 02:42:10,380
Oh okay. All right. Yeah. Well,
once the bombs were dropped,

2293
02:42:10,380 --> 02:42:12,599
we didn't know
anything by the way,

2294
02:42:12,599 --> 02:42:15,039
probably the people
in the States were

2295
02:42:15,039 --> 02:42:18,280
the first ones to
know about this.

2296
02:42:18,280 --> 02:42:24,240
And people asked
me, how did I feel?

2297
02:42:24,440 --> 02:42:27,639
Well there was no great
celebration at all

2298
02:42:27,639 --> 02:42:31,159
with any of us. I don't know, but

2299
02:42:31,159 --> 02:42:34,700
apparently, we were
pretty hard core or something 

2300
02:42:34,700 --> 02:42:38,639
from what we've been going
through for a whole year.

2301
02:42:38,639 --> 02:42:42,340
But we were just glad that,

2302
02:42:42,340 --> 02:42:46,480
that the war ended and
it was time to go home.

2303
02:42:46,480 --> 02:42:50,379
Well, our crew was broken up.

2304
02:42:50,379 --> 02:42:56,699
And I was friendly with
other crew members also.

2305
02:42:56,699 --> 02:42:58,760
It wasn't just our own crew.

2306
02:42:58,760 --> 02:43:02,600
And I figured it was

2307
02:43:02,600 --> 02:43:06,619
time for me to go home
and I wasn't going home.

2308
02:43:06,619 --> 02:43:10,639
And I believe the
Gunners that were

2309
02:43:10,639 --> 02:43:16,420
less serviced than me probably
went home before me.

2310
02:43:16,420 --> 02:43:19,584
Well, I soon found out why.

2311
02:43:19,584 --> 02:43:23,250
I, I was called
into an office

2312
02:43:23,250 --> 02:43:29,389
and an officer talked
to me and said,

2313
02:43:29,590 --> 02:43:34,329
we need radio
operators, real bad.

2314
02:43:34,329 --> 02:43:35,810
Like I told you before,

2315
02:43:35,810 --> 02:43:38,230
the training was the longest 

2316
02:43:38,230 --> 02:43:45,390
I've been a crew member. And they

2317
02:43:45,390 --> 02:43:53,620
needed radio operators to start
a new bomb group in Guam.

2318
02:43:53,620 --> 02:43:59,209
And if I would agree to sign
up for three more years,

2319
02:43:59,209 --> 02:44:04,629
they would upgrade me to
the top Master Sergeant.

2320
02:44:04,629 --> 02:44:11,069
And I refused because
I had enough.

2321
02:44:11,069 --> 02:44:12,929
I wanted to go home.

2322
02:44:12,929 --> 02:44:17,609
But they still held me
back thinking possibly I

2323
02:44:17,609 --> 02:44:23,409
would change my
mind. But I didn't

2324
02:44:23,410 --> 02:44:27,690
and finally, we were getting

2325
02:44:27,690 --> 02:44:32,350
back to this new
bomb group in Guam,

2326
02:44:32,350 --> 02:44:34,470
there were some volunteers,

2327
02:44:34,470 --> 02:44:36,010
but I believe that

2328
02:44:36,010 --> 02:44:41,269
the crew more or less
came from the States,

2329
02:44:41,269 --> 02:44:46,410
because I doubt very much that
anybody that went through

2330
02:44:46,410 --> 02:44:53,949
one year of war was ready to
resume another operation.

2331
02:44:53,949 --> 02:44:59,689
But this was in 1946

2332
02:44:59,689 --> 02:45:06,370
and then I was told that once
the Bomb group was formed,

2333
02:45:06,370 --> 02:45:08,830
that they would go
to the Philippines.

2334
02:45:08,830 --> 02:45:14,790
Well, the way I
look at it today,

2335
02:45:14,790 --> 02:45:17,950
Korean War was in 1950.

2336
02:45:17,950 --> 02:45:23,050
They were preparing in 1946 for

2337
02:45:23,050 --> 02:45:29,309
the Korean War and B-29s were
based in the Philippines.

2338
02:45:29,309 --> 02:45:32,210
And the Philippines were

2339
02:45:32,210 --> 02:45:39,509
easy access to Japan
and also Korea.

2340
02:45:39,509 --> 02:45:45,509
But finally, it was time
for me to go home. And I got a

2341
02:45:45,509 --> 02:45:51,530
notification and I was

2342
02:45:51,530 --> 02:45:53,750
told to take everything with me

2343
02:45:53,750 --> 02:45:57,129
except a 45 caliber pistol.

2344
02:45:57,129 --> 02:46:01,350
I had to surrender that. And 

2345
02:46:01,350 --> 02:46:04,069
as far as all the
other equipment,

2346
02:46:04,069 --> 02:46:07,150
I was told to take it with me.

2347
02:46:07,150 --> 02:46:11,849
Well, Tinian has a small harbor and 

2348
02:46:15,290 --> 02:46:21,850
a group of us went to the
harbor. What we had to

2349
02:46:21,850 --> 02:46:24,190
do was to go to Siapan to

2350
02:46:24,190 --> 02:46:28,450
pick up a ship that will
take us to the states.

2351
02:46:28,450 --> 02:46:30,790
The harbor at Tinian could not

2352
02:46:30,790 --> 02:46:35,230
accommodate any large
ship of any kind.

2353
02:46:35,230 --> 02:46:42,210
We boarded this LCI which is
a landing craft infantry.

2354
02:46:42,210 --> 02:46:45,650
It's a type of invasion

2355
02:46:45,690 --> 02:46:50,410
vessel where
infantry would stand

2356
02:46:50,410 --> 02:46:53,010
and then once it
reached the shoreline,

2357
02:46:53,010 --> 02:46:56,209
the front would drop
down like a ramp

2358
02:46:56,209 --> 02:46:58,070
and  then but anyway,

2359
02:46:58,070 --> 02:47:06,069
it was about maybe a 20 mile
ride in that LCI to Siapan

2360
02:47:06,069 --> 02:47:11,174
and it took probably about

2361
02:47:11,174 --> 02:47:17,259
a half hour or so. Some of them got sea
sick in that short ride.

2362
02:47:17,259 --> 02:47:21,260
But we stayed in Saipan 
 for a few days

2363
02:47:21,260 --> 02:47:26,300
and then the ship that
we were going to take,

2364
02:47:27,420 --> 02:47:31,680
what they call a victory
ship. It had a sharp nose,

2365
02:47:31,680 --> 02:47:34,359
it wasn't one of
these freighters

2366
02:47:34,359 --> 02:47:36,760
with a blunt nose and it was

2367
02:47:36,760 --> 02:47:43,460
a fast vessel and it was
called the Marine Dragon.

2368
02:47:44,700 --> 02:47:52,240
So we took the LCI again to the
ship and boarded the ship

2369
02:47:52,240 --> 02:47:59,899
and it was actually made
into a troop carrier.

2370
02:47:59,899 --> 02:48:07,339
And there were bunks about
three high and the ship left

2371
02:48:07,339 --> 02:48:10,240
Saipan headed for the States

2372
02:48:10,240 --> 02:48:16,359
and it was not just a boat ride,

2373
02:48:16,359 --> 02:48:19,260
We were told that everybody

2374
02:48:19,260 --> 02:48:23,820
had to do some sort
of work on the ship.

2375
02:48:23,820 --> 02:48:27,680
Well, after a day or two,

2376
02:48:27,680 --> 02:48:30,540
there was a roster came out and

2377
02:48:30,540 --> 02:48:33,279
my name was on there
where I needed to report

2378
02:48:33,279 --> 02:48:34,800
the following day for

2379
02:48:34,800 --> 02:48:39,940
kitchen duty and report
to the mess sergeant.

2380
02:48:39,940 --> 02:48:43,300
So I was with a bunch of others,

2381
02:48:43,300 --> 02:48:47,700
went there and reported
to the Mess sergeant.

2382
02:48:47,700 --> 02:48:56,30
and he looked at me and he
said you were a B-29er?

2383
02:48:56,300 --> 02:48:58,760
And I said yes. And he

2384
02:48:58,760 --> 02:49:02,519
said you're not
going to do any work

2385
02:49:02,519 --> 02:49:05,420
on this ship and he

2386
02:49:05,420 --> 02:49:09,019
said I want you to go
back to your bunk

2387
02:49:09,019 --> 02:49:13,639
and he gave me a
whole cans of food.

2388
02:49:13,639 --> 02:49:17,675
Food that we never
ate for a whole year

2389
02:49:17,675 --> 02:49:19,849
you know, a lot of good stuff,

2390
02:49:19,849 --> 02:49:25,770
chili and vegetables
and everything,

2391
02:49:25,770 --> 02:49:28,930
fruits. Well, when I got back

2392
02:49:28,930 --> 02:49:31,830
and then all the others
came back for the day,

2393
02:49:31,830 --> 02:49:33,510
I shared all of this with

2394
02:49:33,510 --> 02:49:37,430
everybody because everybody
was starving for food.

2395
02:49:37,430 --> 02:49:39,809
And that's the way
it was. It took

2396
02:49:39,809 --> 02:49:44,930
14 days from Saipan to Oakland. And 

2397
02:49:48,370 --> 02:49:51,590
I remember distinctly that

2398
02:49:51,590 --> 02:49:54,409
when we passed under
the Golden Gate Bridge,

2399
02:49:54,409 --> 02:49:57,385
everybody yelled and
screamed like crazy.

2400
02:49:57,385 --> 02:49:59,759
And when we approach Oakland,

2401
02:49:59,759 --> 02:50:02,300
that there was a
band playing music

2402
02:50:02,300 --> 02:50:06,620
and we were given physicals and

2403
02:50:06,620 --> 02:50:11,560
also uniforms and as

2404
02:50:11,920 --> 02:50:17,480
a designation as to where
our separation would be.

2405
02:50:18,920 --> 02:50:22,300
And that's the time when I
sent a telegram to

2406
02:50:22,300 --> 02:50:29,100
Marie. And they're giving us

2407
02:50:29,100 --> 02:50:32,080
these physicals and they're
drawing my blood and

2408
02:50:32,080 --> 02:50:35,530
my blood is a real
dark red and I'm

2409
02:50:35,530 --> 02:50:37,730
looking them alongside of

2410
02:50:37,730 --> 02:50:42,550
other blood samples and
there actually blood color.

2411
02:50:42,550 --> 02:50:44,910
And I'm thinking, what
in the world is this?

2412
02:50:44,910 --> 02:50:50,469
Of course, it didn't mean
anything. So from Oakland

2413
02:50:50,469 --> 02:50:55,950
I took a train to
Atterbury, Illinois,

2414
02:50:55,950 --> 02:50:58,809
and that's when I
got my separation.

2415
02:50:58,809 --> 02:51:00,210
And I was still allowed

2416
02:51:00,210 --> 02:51:05,109
to keep everything that I had.
And I did take it all home.

2417
02:51:05,109 --> 02:51:09,950
So, what was your final
rank? You know and all told,

2418
02:51:09,950 --> 02:51:12,249
how long have you
served overseas?

2419
02:51:12,249 --> 02:51:17,449
Well, I was a staff sergeant,

2420
02:51:17,449 --> 02:51:19,430
that's a pretty high grade

2421
02:51:19,430 --> 02:51:23,470
and in fact, there were
two staff sergeants

2422
02:51:23,470 --> 02:51:28,990
and and the gunners
were a lower rank.

2423
02:51:28,990 --> 02:51:31,829
Had you started as
a staff sergeant

2424
02:51:31,829 --> 02:51:34,189
too or did you become
a staff sergeant or 

2425
02:51:34,189 --> 02:51:36,249
you promoted
while you were overseas?

2426
02:51:36,249 --> 02:51:40,490
Well, I left the states as a as

2427
02:51:40,490 --> 02:51:44,869
a regular sergeant and
overseas I got promoted

2428
02:51:44,869 --> 02:51:47,950
because of my position.

2429
02:51:48,750 --> 02:51:51,730
The biggest positions for

2430
02:51:51,730 --> 02:51:55,429
enlisted men were radio operator

2431
02:51:55,429 --> 02:52:01,569
and also the central fire
control. And all told

2432
02:52:01,569 --> 02:52:04,669
how long had you
been away from home?

2433
02:52:04,669 --> 02:52:08,349
Did you go home at
all between the trip

2434
02:52:08,349 --> 02:52:12,010
when you between Texas
and coming back?

2435
02:52:12,010 --> 02:52:16,450
Well, it was just the one time
when we when we finished

2436
02:52:16,450 --> 02:52:20,009
our training as a radio operator

2437
02:52:20,009 --> 02:52:23,190
in that DeLeon route to Texas.

2438
02:52:23,190 --> 02:52:30,289
And after that there was
no term or anything.

2439
02:52:30,289 --> 02:52:34,910
And that had been what,
1944? And now it was 1946.

2440
02:52:34,910 --> 02:52:36,730
Yeah yeah. In that neighborhood.

2441
02:52:36,730 --> 02:52:38,090
okay!

2442
02:52:38,090 --> 02:52:41,050
So what was it like
for you to come

2443
02:52:41,050 --> 02:52:44,670
home and restart your
life as a civilian?

2444
02:52:47,510 --> 02:52:53,350
It didn't seem like too
much of a transition.

2445
02:52:53,390 --> 02:52:55,429
Of course, you had to get all

2446
02:52:55,429 --> 02:52:56,669
new clothing and everything 

2447
02:52:56,669 --> 02:53:02,870
and thankfully,

2448
02:53:03,310 --> 02:53:05,870
I was able to get four years of

2449
02:53:05,870 --> 02:53:09,630
college under the
GI Bill of Rights.

2450
02:53:09,630 --> 02:53:13,590
And possibly that is what

2451
02:53:13,590 --> 02:53:20,509
I was really aiming
for. But at an early age

2452
02:53:20,509 --> 02:53:24,009
I was thinking I wanted
to be a surgeon.

2453
02:53:24,009 --> 02:53:30,689
And love conquers all.

2454
02:53:30,689 --> 02:53:38,250
For me to go away for 4-7
years and not get married,

2455
02:53:38,250 --> 02:53:43,050
or else there would be no way to

2456
02:53:43,050 --> 02:53:46,050
possibly do marriage in

2457
02:53:46,050 --> 02:53:49,049
college at the same
time at that time.

2458
02:53:49,049 --> 02:53:53,250
So thankfully, I
got four years of

2459
02:53:53,250 --> 02:53:58,250
engineering and I feel that
it was a big help to me.

2460
02:53:58,250 --> 02:54:00,589
I love to study.

2461
02:54:00,589 --> 02:54:03,749
I do to the very day.

2462
02:54:04,830 --> 02:54:08,089
Where did you, where did you go to school?

2463
02:54:08,089 --> 02:54:11,289
It was a corresponding school,

2464
02:54:11,289 --> 02:54:17,149
and it was very difficult,

2465
02:54:17,149 --> 02:54:21,629
by the way. I had to
study and of course,

2466
02:54:21,629 --> 02:54:27,869
we did get a lot of guidance
and as far as paperwork goes,

2467
02:54:27,869 --> 02:54:32,470
I would write it out and
then my wife would, Marie,

2468
02:54:32,470 --> 02:54:36,110
she would type it out and
then I would mail it.

2469
02:54:36,110 --> 02:54:40,609
But it was well recognized
and it was great.

2470
02:54:40,609 --> 02:54:43,090
I learned a lot from it.

2471
02:54:43,090 --> 02:54:45,829
And were you working

2472
02:54:45,829 --> 02:54:48,049
at the same time you
were doing this correspondence?

2473
02:54:48,049 --> 02:54:49,490
Well, I did have

2474
02:54:49,490 --> 02:54:55,890
a job at the same place
where my father worked.

2475
02:54:55,890 --> 02:55:00,890
But I wasn't really
too happy with it.

2476
02:55:00,890 --> 02:55:05,650
I did hear about
Bethlehem Steel which is

2477
02:55:05,650 --> 02:55:10,030
outside of Buffalo.
It's about 45 miles away.

2478
02:55:10,030 --> 02:55:20,209
And I felt that with my
education and smarts,

2479
02:55:20,209 --> 02:55:24,189
that I could do well over there.

2480
02:55:24,189 --> 02:55:27,230
So I I did write a letter to

2481
02:55:27,230 --> 02:55:31,710
the employment office
listing some of

2482
02:55:31,710 --> 02:55:38,490
my qualifications and I
got a response that they

2483
02:55:38,490 --> 02:55:43,029
forwarded this to
a department head

2484
02:55:43,029 --> 02:55:46,370
and he was very interested
in talking to me.

2485
02:55:46,370 --> 02:55:52,469
So what I did, I went there
and I was immediately hired.

2486
02:55:54,670 --> 02:55:58,470
I served as a planning engineer.

2487
02:55:58,470 --> 02:56:04,250
I did have immense
background in mechanics.

2488
02:56:04,250 --> 02:56:10,249
And before long I was
rapidly promoted,

2489
02:56:10,249 --> 02:56:14,909
supervising groups
of hourly workers.

2490
02:56:14,909 --> 02:56:21,350
And I worked for 30 years,

2491
02:56:21,350 --> 02:56:25,069
and I was aged 55 then,

2492
02:56:25,069 --> 02:56:28,430
and at the time, they were

2493
02:56:28,430 --> 02:56:35,350
offering lump sum pensions
or else continue to work and

2494
02:56:35,350 --> 02:56:41,990
it was going to be a one
time offer. And else you could

2495
02:56:41,990 --> 02:56:45,349
work until you wanted to

2496
02:56:45,349 --> 02:56:49,059
retire and and be on
a monthly pension.

2497
02:56:49,059 --> 02:56:53,999
Well, Marie told
me, retire. Well,

2498
02:56:53,999 --> 02:56:57,299
I made good money at

2499
02:56:57,299 --> 02:57:00,780
Bethlehem Steel. She
didn't have to work.

2500
02:57:00,780 --> 02:57:03,040
That there was
absolutely no sense at

2501
02:57:03,040 --> 02:57:05,699
all in her finding a job,

2502
02:57:05,699 --> 02:57:07,039
even though she had worked

2503
02:57:07,039 --> 02:57:10,840
before after leaving
high school.

2504
02:57:10,840 --> 02:57:15,199
And her job was to raise the

2505
02:57:15,199 --> 02:57:17,859
three kids and provide

2506
02:57:17,859 --> 02:57:23,420
good meals and do
whatever it had to do.

2507
02:57:23,420 --> 02:57:25,400
And it worked out real well.

2508
02:57:25,400 --> 02:57:28,219
I'm so glad that she,

2509
02:57:28,219 --> 02:57:29,900
that didn't have to work.

2510
02:57:29,900 --> 02:57:33,400
But but she did have
a lot of friends. And they used 

2511
02:57:33,400 --> 02:57:37,699
to go out for dinner and
do all sorts of things,

2512
02:57:37,699 --> 02:57:41,420
which I was very
well pleased with.

2513
02:57:41,420 --> 02:57:43,780
What kind of work did she do

2514
02:57:43,780 --> 02:57:45,779
between high school
and getting married?

2515
02:57:45,779 --> 02:57:49,100
She was working
in a department store.

2516
02:57:49,660 --> 02:57:55,320
And did you get married
right away in 1946?

2517
02:57:55,320 --> 02:57:58,500
Well, I was discharged in

2518
02:57:58,740 --> 02:58:04,799
in April and we got
married August 10.

2519
02:58:04,799 --> 02:58:10,799
Well, my brother, he was
going in dating a girl

2520
02:58:10,799 --> 02:58:17,340
and they never talked
about marriage.

2521
02:58:17,340 --> 02:58:19,799
Well, as soon as he found out

2522
02:58:19,799 --> 02:58:23,220
that Marie and I were
going to get married,

2523
02:58:23,660 --> 02:58:29,100
his girlfriend said that

2524
02:58:29,100 --> 02:58:31,940
he's not going to get
married before you.

2525
02:58:31,940 --> 02:58:35,300
So they did push it
to the limit and

2526
02:58:35,300 --> 02:58:39,320
they got married before us.

2527
02:58:39,320 --> 02:58:42,659
And when was your
first child born?

2528
02:58:42,740 --> 02:58:46,339
It didn't take long. It took

2529
02:58:46,339 --> 02:58:49,340
about nine months.
That's what it was.

2530
02:58:49,340 --> 02:58:52,599
And what were your
children's names? What was what?

2531
02:58:52,599 --> 02:58:55,159
Your children, what were
 what are their names?

2532
02:58:55,159 --> 02:59:02,379
My oldest daughter
was Margaret.

2533
02:59:02,379 --> 02:59:04,619
She passed away.

2534
02:59:04,619 --> 02:59:09,360
And then there was Judy.

2535
02:59:09,360 --> 02:59:15,040
She lives in Pinehurst,
North Carolina.

2536
02:59:15,040 --> 02:59:16,820
And then my son Jim,

2537
02:59:16,820 --> 02:59:19,860
who you already met.

2538
02:59:19,860 --> 02:59:24,819
And Jimmy is my lifeblood.

2539
02:59:24,819 --> 02:59:26,720
He does everything for me.

2540
02:59:26,720 --> 02:59:29,580
He forbids me to step a foot on

2541
02:59:29,580 --> 02:59:34,259
the ladder or change a
light bulb or anything.

2542
02:59:34,620 --> 02:59:41,940
So, thinking about how the
world changed, you know,

2543
02:59:41,940 --> 02:59:43,859
after World War Two,

2544
02:59:43,859 --> 02:59:45,680
there were some major things

2545
02:59:45,680 --> 02:59:47,300
that happened in
the United States,

2546
02:59:47,300 --> 02:59:50,239
including a Civil
Rights movement.

2547
02:59:50,239 --> 02:59:53,800
Were you aware of kind
of what was going on?

2548
02:59:53,800 --> 02:59:55,619
I know you you know you
grew up in New York,

2549
02:59:55,619 --> 02:59:58,740
and then eventually you came
and moved to the South.

2550
02:59:58,740 --> 03:00:01,580
Well, being in the service,

2551
03:00:02,300 --> 03:00:05,340
I really didn't
follow it too close,

2552
03:00:05,340 --> 03:00:14,180
but there was one event
which really hurts me.

2553
03:00:14,180 --> 03:00:17,300
I was at a Christmas party.

2554
03:00:17,300 --> 03:00:20,259
I do got to get a
lot of invites from

2555
03:00:20,259 --> 03:00:25,300
my neighbors because my
neighbors are beautiful people and

2556
03:00:25,500 --> 03:00:28,000
they more or less
looked after me.

2557
03:00:28,000 --> 03:00:31,519
But anyway, at this
Christmas party,

2558
03:00:31,519 --> 03:00:36,139
it was more or less a family
affair and there was a woman

2559
03:00:36,139 --> 03:00:42,180
there that she was aware of

2560
03:00:42,180 --> 03:00:47,899
me because of my neighbor
possibly telling her who I was.

2561
03:00:47,899 --> 03:00:58,280
Well, she was an activist
and the thing she sent to

2562
03:00:58,280 --> 03:01:02,210
me, how I was

2563
03:01:02,290 --> 03:01:05,370
involved in the Air
offensive against

2564
03:01:05,370 --> 03:01:09,029
Japan with the innocent
people and everything else

2565
03:01:09,029 --> 03:01:11,529
and she never showed any concern

2566
03:01:11,529 --> 03:01:14,969
whatsoever about
the loss of life,

2567
03:01:14,969 --> 03:01:17,515
of troops or the sacrifices of

2568
03:01:17,515 --> 03:01:21,819
this. And I didn't

2569
03:01:21,819 --> 03:01:23,400
give her the satisfaction to

2570
03:01:23,400 --> 03:01:25,820
give her any kind of an answer.

2571
03:01:25,820 --> 03:01:27,999
And all I said was, look,

2572
03:01:27,999 --> 03:01:31,560
you have your opinions
and I've got mine.

2573
03:01:31,560 --> 03:01:38,939
But years later, she
had a party again,

2574
03:01:38,939 --> 03:01:40,539
probably four years later,

2575
03:01:40,539 --> 03:01:45,260
and she came to me and she
had a whole different tone.

2576
03:01:45,260 --> 03:01:48,719
Apparently, she gathered all

2577
03:01:48,719 --> 03:01:52,159
of her negative thoughts
together and realized,

2578
03:01:52,159 --> 03:01:54,140
hey, wait a minute, you
know, there's people

2579
03:01:54,140 --> 03:01:57,219
that made big sacrifices.

2580
03:01:58,980 --> 03:02:02,599
And we talked a
little bit about,

2581
03:02:02,599 --> 03:02:04,060
you know, religion, you know,

2582
03:02:04,060 --> 03:02:06,460
during the war, and the
role it played for you.

2583
03:02:06,460 --> 03:02:07,940
I realized I hadn't asked,

2584
03:02:07,940 --> 03:02:10,080
did you know any
Jewish soldiers?

2585
03:02:10,080 --> 03:02:13,259
Or any Jewish people?

2586
03:02:13,259 --> 03:02:18,039
I had loads of Jewish
friends and I mean,

2587
03:02:18,039 --> 03:02:22,380
real, real good friends
when I lived in [undecipherable] West,

2588
03:02:24,180 --> 03:02:26,660
Dr. Solomon, who was one of

2589
03:02:26,660 --> 03:02:31,660
the best eye surgeons in the
country and his wife was

2590
03:02:31,660 --> 03:02:34,880
an attorney and
they had two boys

2591
03:02:34,880 --> 03:02:41,580
and they were the finest
people you would want to know.

2592
03:02:41,580 --> 03:02:44,180
And that they were
always visiting

2593
03:02:44,180 --> 03:02:46,280
me and I would visit them

2594
03:02:46,280 --> 03:02:50,080
and then I did have
other friends.

2595
03:02:50,080 --> 03:02:55,200
And as far as a
Jewish person goes,

2596
03:02:55,200 --> 03:02:58,980
it's just like me
or just like you.

2597
03:02:58,980 --> 03:03:01,140
I really can't see a difference in, 

2598
03:03:01,140 --> 03:03:07,339
 it has always bothered
me from my early ages as to

2599
03:03:07,339 --> 03:03:12,180
why people are against

2600
03:03:12,180 --> 03:03:15,179
Jewish people or even

2601
03:03:15,179 --> 03:03:18,820
against their country
and their values.

2602
03:03:18,860 --> 03:03:24,040
I've never been
anywhere close to that.

2603
03:03:24,040 --> 03:03:26,960
Were you aware of

2604
03:03:26,960 --> 03:03:29,240
did you know about
what was going

2605
03:03:29,240 --> 03:03:31,639
on in Europe with the Holocaust?

2606
03:03:31,639 --> 03:03:34,800
Did that come did you
learn about that later? Or

2607
03:03:34,800 --> 03:03:38,599
I'm curious? No, I followed
that very close.

2608
03:03:38,599 --> 03:03:43,800
Yes in fact, I took it

2609
03:03:43,800 --> 03:03:49,800
DVD's from the library and if
I run across a German one,

2610
03:03:49,800 --> 03:03:52,380
which possibly has
a little bit of

2611
03:03:52,380 --> 03:03:56,879
background for the Holocaust,

2612
03:03:56,879 --> 03:03:59,199
I will pick it up because I

2613
03:03:59,199 --> 03:04:02,740
just loved to read
all of that stuff,

2614
03:04:02,740 --> 03:04:10,030
but I was fully aware of the
Holocaust in my early years and 

2615
03:04:11,470 --> 03:04:18,430
I find it so hard as
to why one individual,

2616
03:04:18,430 --> 03:04:23,150
Adolph Hitler, they
were working 

2617
03:04:23,150 --> 03:04:29,349
his subordinates over to
establish this genocide.

2618
03:04:30,910 --> 03:04:34,109
And particularly, well of course, they were
 after

2619
03:04:34,350 --> 03:04:40,129
Catholics and also
African Americans too.

2620
03:04:40,129 --> 03:04:43,430
But their main focus
was on Jewish.

2621
03:04:43,430 --> 03:04:45,590
That they would
break up families,

2622
03:04:45,590 --> 03:04:47,689
that they would

2623
03:04:47,689 --> 03:04:50,750
take over their assets,

2624
03:04:50,750 --> 03:04:56,509
their buildings,
businesses, and whatever.

2625
03:04:56,509 --> 03:05:04,910
But as far as the
internment camps go,

2626
03:05:06,110 --> 03:05:13,349
I find it so hard that
a common soldier being

2627
03:05:13,349 --> 03:05:21,750
brainwashed by his superiors
to strip people naked,

2628
03:05:21,750 --> 03:05:23,709
put them in showers,

2629
03:05:23,709 --> 03:05:31,030
and then put them into a
chamber under false pretenses and 

2630
03:05:31,350 --> 03:05:34,290
who's going to turn
the valve? Or who's

2631
03:05:34,290 --> 03:05:37,710
going to drop the pill?

2632
03:05:39,870 --> 03:05:44,150
And also who's going to dig
this big trench? And also 

2633
03:05:44,270 --> 03:05:47,830
who's going to run
the bulldozer?

2634
03:05:48,310 --> 03:05:56,570
I've always talk, how can
anybody have stuff like this.

2635
03:05:56,570 --> 03:06:03,269
I did follow the Nuremberg
Trials very closely. And 

2636
03:06:05,350 --> 03:06:09,630
I did have a real good DVD about

2637
03:06:09,630 --> 03:06:12,750
Eichmann as to how

2638
03:06:12,750 --> 03:06:16,330
he started and when he
moved to South America.

2639
03:06:16,330 --> 03:06:20,430
I'm reading up on all
of this stuff here. So, excuse me 

2640
03:06:24,990 --> 03:06:28,570
looking back at your life,

2641
03:06:28,570 --> 03:06:32,069
at the war, and its impact,

2642
03:06:32,069 --> 03:06:34,390
why do you think
it's important for

2643
03:06:34,390 --> 03:06:38,749
students now to learn
about World War Two?

2644
03:06:42,430 --> 03:06:47,970
It's it's possible that
those that actually

2645
03:06:47,970 --> 03:06:53,409
did something of
value don't speak up.

2646
03:06:53,409 --> 03:06:57,729
Well, I as one

2647
03:06:57,850 --> 03:07:03,970
for years and years never
talked at all about anything.

2648
03:07:04,970 --> 03:07:10,250
And I did mention that I did
have all this equipment.

2649
03:07:10,250 --> 03:07:14,230
Well after about ten
years of marriage,

2650
03:07:14,230 --> 03:07:18,590
my wife said, you know we need to destroy

2651
03:07:18,590 --> 03:07:20,630
all this stuff because

2652
03:07:20,630 --> 03:07:23,970
it's bringing back
too many memories.

2653
03:07:25,370 --> 03:07:29,249
So what I did with dig hole. You know,

2654
03:07:29,249 --> 03:07:31,869
I actually brought back

2655
03:07:31,869 --> 03:07:37,710
a 50 caliber machine
gun bullet. And 

2656
03:07:37,710 --> 03:07:42,570
I put that in there and
also the medical kit with

2657
03:07:42,570 --> 03:07:49,250
the morphine and some
of the other stuff,

2658
03:07:49,250 --> 03:07:52,010
well, my son Jim,

2659
03:07:52,050 --> 03:07:55,449
he used to play around with
some of the stuff like

2660
03:07:55,449 --> 03:08:02,329
the oxygen mask and
stuff and my helmet and

2661
03:08:02,650 --> 03:08:04,909
as far as communicating

2662
03:08:04,909 --> 03:08:07,670
in a plane when we had a throat mic

2663
03:08:07,670 --> 03:08:09,990
there were two discs
that that would

2664
03:08:09,990 --> 03:08:12,609
go around your
tonsils and they'd 

2665
03:08:12,609 --> 03:08:14,910
wrap around and then
you would plug it

2666
03:08:14,910 --> 03:08:19,010
in and that way you could talk
to everybody in the plane. And

2667
03:08:19,770 --> 03:08:22,810
we discarded all of that stuff.

2668
03:08:22,810 --> 03:08:26,289
But a few years back,

2669
03:08:26,289 --> 03:08:29,789
my grandson talked
to me and said,

2670
03:08:29,789 --> 03:08:32,670
you know, there's a guy in

2671
03:08:32,670 --> 03:08:38,609
North Carolina that's
got a helmet Mel Price and

2672
03:08:39,210 --> 03:08:41,510
he wanted to know if that was

2673
03:08:41,510 --> 03:08:44,210
the one that's living
in Mount Pleasant.

2674
03:08:46,090 --> 03:08:50,330
And I really haven't got any
idea because I thought

2675
03:08:50,330 --> 03:08:55,970
that we destroyed all of
this stuff here. But uh—.

2676
03:08:57,980 --> 03:09:00,139
So—. Did I answered the question.

2677
03:09:00,139 --> 03:09:01,780
So your wife kind of felt it was

2678
03:09:01,780 --> 03:09:03,899
time to say goodbye
to those memories,

2679
03:09:03,899 --> 03:09:05,159
but at the same time,

2680
03:09:05,159 --> 03:09:07,180
I know you told me
that you talked to

2681
03:09:07,180 --> 03:09:09,880
students, you know, at your high school. Oh yes.

2682
03:09:09,880 --> 03:09:12,180
Eventually you decided to talk about —.

2683
03:09:12,980 --> 03:09:18,900
Well I was I never did
speak to anybody.

2684
03:09:18,900 --> 03:09:21,800
I did attend military functions 

2685
03:09:21,800 --> 03:09:31,880
and for some reason
people will seek me out.

2686
03:09:31,880 --> 03:09:34,840
And then of course,

2687
03:09:34,840 --> 03:09:37,560
after them telling me
what the purpose was,

2688
03:09:37,560 --> 03:09:40,240
well then I agreed to it

2689
03:09:40,240 --> 03:09:49,980
and they were interviews and
also phone conversations,

2690
03:09:49,980 --> 03:09:52,960
but in Wanda High School,

2691
03:09:52,960 --> 03:09:54,980
which got 4,000 students,

2692
03:09:54,980 --> 03:09:57,819
they have an ROTC class,

2693
03:09:57,819 --> 03:10:03,079
and it is big and it's geared
towards the Air Force.

2694
03:10:03,079 --> 03:10:08,319
Well, the people that run it are

2695
03:10:08,319 --> 03:10:14,340
two female military personnel

2696
03:10:14,340 --> 03:10:19,619
and also a couple of
retired officers.

2697
03:10:19,619 --> 03:10:25,020
And I got a phone call and

2698
03:10:25,380 --> 03:10:33,499
they asked me if I would come
and speak to the ROTC class.

2699
03:10:33,499 --> 03:10:39,680
And then I wasn't really
too sure about that.

2700
03:10:39,680 --> 03:10:43,240
But anyway, they asked

2701
03:10:43,240 --> 03:10:46,980
me to come over so we could
talk a little bit more.

2702
03:10:47,300 --> 03:10:53,460
So I did. And then I thought

2703
03:10:53,460 --> 03:10:55,740
it was a great thing because

2704
03:10:55,740 --> 03:10:59,285
these students were
interested in military,

2705
03:10:59,285 --> 03:11:07,689
and the proper source
was lacking to tell.

2706
03:11:07,689 --> 03:11:12,310
So we set up a time here and

2707
03:11:12,310 --> 03:11:15,989
they told me where

2708
03:11:15,989 --> 03:11:21,889
to park and then a student
escorted me to the office.

2709
03:11:21,889 --> 03:11:23,450
We talked a while and

2710
03:11:23,450 --> 03:11:27,269
then I went at the
head of the class

2711
03:11:27,269 --> 03:11:31,029
and there were well
over 100 students.

2712
03:11:31,029 --> 03:11:34,370
And I did ask them,

2713
03:11:34,370 --> 03:11:36,510
well, what should I

2714
03:11:36,510 --> 03:11:39,010
talk about and what I
shouldn't talk about?

2715
03:11:39,010 --> 03:11:42,070
And they said just talk.

2716
03:11:42,070 --> 03:11:46,790
Well, the whole staff also
and some of the teachers,

2717
03:11:46,790 --> 03:11:48,930
stood in the background

2718
03:11:48,930 --> 03:11:55,610
and I spent a whole
hour talking to them.

2719
03:11:55,610 --> 03:11:58,809
And then there was a question
and the answer period.

2720
03:11:58,809 --> 03:12:01,470
And then finally
the bell rang and

2721
03:12:01,470 --> 03:12:04,389
it was time for them to
go to another class,

2722
03:12:04,389 --> 03:12:06,350
So I go back to the office

2723
03:12:06,350 --> 03:12:11,170
and I said, well, I hope I
did well and I'll be leaving.

2724
03:12:11,170 --> 03:12:13,750
And they said, wait a minute,

2725
03:12:14,150 --> 03:12:16,850
you aren't ready to go because

2726
03:12:16,850 --> 03:12:19,190
there's three more
classes to go.

2727
03:12:19,190 --> 03:12:24,849
And I did a second one,

2728
03:12:24,849 --> 03:12:27,029
and then it was lunchtime.

2729
03:12:27,029 --> 03:12:29,010
I just drank water

2730
03:12:29,010 --> 03:12:31,629
and then I did the third one

2731
03:12:31,629 --> 03:12:36,609
and the fourth one
was the last one.

2732
03:12:36,609 --> 03:12:41,370
Altogether, there was possibly
500 students in there

2733
03:12:41,370 --> 03:12:46,110
and I was told that what I was

2734
03:12:46,110 --> 03:12:48,450
telling the students
was stuff that

2735
03:12:48,450 --> 03:12:52,209
they had never ever
heard of before.

2736
03:12:53,370 --> 03:12:58,209
And as I'm speaking, I'm
looking at these kids, you know 

2737
03:12:58,209 --> 03:13:00,050
they're high school kids,

2738
03:13:00,050 --> 03:13:04,549
probably 16, 17 years
old, seniors, freshman

2739
03:13:04,549 --> 03:13:08,809
and their eyes are
glued to me, really,

2740
03:13:08,809 --> 03:13:12,689
that they're not talking

2741
03:13:12,689 --> 03:13:14,430
with their neighbor
or anything else.

2742
03:13:14,430 --> 03:13:19,109
And after I got, in fact,

2743
03:13:19,109 --> 03:13:23,930
I'm looking down in the
first row is this one girl.

2744
03:13:23,930 --> 03:13:27,050
She she looked at me
and and she's looking

2745
03:13:27,050 --> 03:13:30,190
and looking. Her eyes she wouldn't
take her eyes off of me.

2746
03:13:30,190 --> 03:13:33,049
And after I got through,

2747
03:13:33,049 --> 03:13:36,330
she walked over to me and she

2748
03:13:36,330 --> 03:13:39,189
handed me a crumpled dollar bill.

2749
03:13:39,189 --> 03:13:40,790
And she said, Mr. Price,

2750
03:13:40,790 --> 03:13:45,969
can I buy you a bottle
of water? Oh my God.

2751
03:13:46,530 --> 03:13:50,250
So what do you

2752
03:13:50,250 --> 03:13:54,390
hope students will learn
from your experiences?

2753
03:13:54,390 --> 03:14:01,530
Well, as far as

2754
03:14:01,530 --> 03:14:06,730
what was done to
establish our freedom,

2755
03:14:08,490 --> 03:14:12,690
I talked to people in
their '30s and '40s,

2756
03:14:12,690 --> 03:14:15,889
and I will throw a
few things at them

2757
03:14:15,889 --> 03:14:21,740
and they don't know
where Tinian is,

2758
03:14:21,740 --> 03:14:28,329
they never heard of the Mariana,

2759
03:14:28,329 --> 03:14:31,850
they never heard of a B-29.

2760
03:14:31,850 --> 03:14:33,229
In fact, I was asked one

2761
03:14:33,229 --> 03:14:36,910
time what sort of
passenger plane is that? So

2762
03:14:37,670 --> 03:14:41,589
there's totally a
lack of knowledge.

2763
03:14:42,270 --> 03:14:46,110
I don't know if there's
a big gap or not, but

2764
03:14:46,110 --> 03:14:48,630
I don't believe even even today,

2765
03:14:48,630 --> 03:14:51,650
that they really coming out and

2766
03:14:51,650 --> 03:14:56,929
promoting any of these things.

2767
03:14:56,929 --> 03:15:03,129
But people that have gone
through this, and meeting,

2768
03:15:03,129 --> 03:15:08,259
people at the same level
as what I've gone through,

2769
03:15:09,460 --> 03:15:11,999
it really makes my day.

2770
03:15:11,999 --> 03:15:15,539
Yeah. And why do you

2771
03:15:15,539 --> 03:15:18,419
think why do you think, it's really important
that we remember?

2772
03:15:19,300 --> 03:15:25,099
Well, our country has

2773
03:15:25,099 --> 03:15:31,059
the greatest freedom of
any country in the world.

2774
03:15:31,059 --> 03:15:34,560
You can do almost
anything or say

2775
03:15:34,560 --> 03:15:38,160
anything, and get away with it.

2776
03:15:38,160 --> 03:15:41,619
Especially the
freedom of speech.

2777
03:15:41,619 --> 03:15:47,139
And people can demonstrate

2778
03:15:47,420 --> 03:15:51,160
regardless of what
the purpose is and 

2779
03:15:51,160 --> 03:15:57,799
they aren't bothered. And there are

2780
03:15:57,799 --> 03:16:05,339
many times that I feel that in these times.

2781
03:16:05,420 --> 03:16:13,439
As of today, we're lacking
a lot on the leadership.

2782
03:16:13,439 --> 03:16:16,879
I believe that there

2783
03:16:16,879 --> 03:16:19,200
are a lot of brilliant
people out there

2784
03:16:19,200 --> 03:16:22,600
that could do a much better job

2785
03:16:22,600 --> 03:16:26,099
as to what is being done today,

2786
03:16:26,180 --> 03:16:28,779
especially in the military.

2787
03:16:28,779 --> 03:16:31,399
I'm orientated towards military, so

2788
03:16:31,399 --> 03:16:33,700
military means a lot to me.

2789
03:16:33,700 --> 03:16:39,060
And a previous question you would

2790
03:16:39,060 --> 03:16:44,359
 ask me before
was about aviators.

2791
03:16:44,359 --> 03:16:45,820
Well, you never asked me

2792
03:16:45,820 --> 03:16:48,759
about leadership
of the military.

2793
03:16:48,759 --> 03:16:53,819
Well, I have the highest respect

2794
03:16:53,819 --> 03:16:57,899
for General Patton.
He's my idol.

2795
03:16:57,980 --> 03:17:01,420
If you would ever
seen the movie,

2796
03:17:02,860 --> 03:17:07,619
he starts off
addressing the troops,

2797
03:17:08,220 --> 03:17:13,460
never let this, SOB
die for his country.

2798
03:17:14,900 --> 03:17:17,979
No I'm not saying this right.

2799
03:17:18,220 --> 03:17:21,659
Never die for your country,

2800
03:17:21,659 --> 03:17:24,639
let that SOB die
for his country.

2801
03:17:24,639 --> 03:17:27,340
That's when General Patton said it.

2802
03:17:27,340 --> 03:17:31,419
And then I feel that he was
one of the greatest ones.

2803
03:17:31,419 --> 03:17:32,440
But of course there was

2804
03:17:32,440 --> 03:17:35,740
Eisenhower, Bradley
and of course in

2805
03:17:35,740 --> 03:17:41,939
the Navy there was Nimitz, Bull Halsey.

2806
03:17:41,939 --> 03:17:47,129
They were great. And B 29
when they first started,

2807
03:17:47,129 --> 03:17:50,440
they started in India. And they

2808
03:17:50,440 --> 03:17:54,740
were flying the hump and
establishing a base in China.

2809
03:17:54,740 --> 03:17:57,880
Well, that was not
going to work.

2810
03:17:59,000 --> 03:18:04,659
General Macarthur who
was the Supreme Commander,

2811
03:18:04,659 --> 03:18:08,419
he had jurisdiction
over everybody,

2812
03:18:08,419 --> 03:18:11,839
the Navy, and Army, and Marines.

2813
03:18:14,520 --> 03:18:18,960
And but by establishing
this base in China,

2814
03:18:19,800 --> 03:18:24,460
Japanese would have access
to it and it wouldn't work.

2815
03:18:24,460 --> 03:18:28,840
And General Macarthur who was,

2816
03:18:30,420 --> 03:18:34,840
I'm going to say,
kicked out of Batan,

2817
03:18:34,840 --> 03:18:37,379
he said, I shall return.

2818
03:18:37,379 --> 03:18:43,659
That's his slogan. Well,
for political reasons I

2819
03:18:43,659 --> 03:18:50,179
believe he wanted to build B-
29 bases in the Philippines.

2820
03:18:50,179 --> 03:18:53,879
And everybody else
especially the Navy,

2821
03:18:53,879 --> 03:18:59,720
Nimitz and Bull Halsey said
that we've got to go to

2822
03:18:59,720 --> 03:19:02,660
the Mariannas and how

2823
03:19:02,660 --> 03:19:07,299
are you gonna, you you are gonna to get
there 1,500 miles away

2824
03:19:07,380 --> 03:19:09,680
and they said that's the way

2825
03:19:09,680 --> 03:19:14,480
we're building a new plane
that's capable of doing it.

2826
03:19:14,480 --> 03:19:23,140
And that they be one out.

2827
03:19:23,900 --> 03:19:32,239
The original commander of
the B-29 was General Hansel,

2828
03:19:32,239 --> 03:19:37,260
and he was a start in general

2829
03:19:37,260 --> 03:19:41,660
for the first B-29 that
flew out of Japan,

2830
03:19:41,660 --> 03:19:48,659
And he was very conservative.

2831
03:19:49,460 --> 03:19:54,260
He wanted the plane to
fly at 30,000 feet

2832
03:19:54,260 --> 03:19:57,520
in the do to [needs confirmation ]bombing then. Well,

2833
03:19:57,520 --> 03:19:59,979
at that high altitude,

2834
03:20:02,580 --> 03:20:07,319
the flat guns could not
reach that altitude

2835
03:20:07,319 --> 03:20:09,680
in the planes that

2836
03:20:09,680 --> 03:20:12,780
Japan had could not
reach that altitude.

2837
03:20:12,780 --> 03:20:17,740
But at that high altitude,

2838
03:20:18,380 --> 03:20:22,580
only about 5% of the
targets were ever hit.

2839
03:20:22,580 --> 03:20:24,880
And everything else was just

2840
03:20:24,880 --> 03:20:28,859
wasted. And at that time

2841
03:20:28,859 --> 03:20:32,145
that they were fighting
the Gulf Stream.

2842
03:20:32,145 --> 03:20:36,710
That is when the Gulf Stream
was first discovered.

2843
03:20:36,710 --> 03:20:41,330
Up until then, nobody knew
about the Gulf Stream.

2844
03:20:41,330 --> 03:20:45,630
And what it meant was that
it was directly over Japan

2845
03:20:45,630 --> 03:20:49,690
and the planes would be flying
against the Gulf Stream,

2846
03:20:49,690 --> 03:20:52,830
which was over 200
miles per hour

2847
03:20:52,830 --> 03:20:55,370
and the planes would

2848
03:20:55,370 --> 03:21:00,150
be only cruising at
a very slow rate.

2849
03:21:00,150 --> 03:21:03,250
And of course the ordnance that

2850
03:21:03,250 --> 03:21:06,270
was dropped would be swept away

2851
03:21:06,270 --> 03:21:12,269
also. Well, he insisted
upon 30,000 feet.

2852
03:21:12,269 --> 03:21:16,909
and then the Supreme Commander,

2853
03:21:16,909 --> 03:21:20,209
General Arnold that was
based in Washington,

2854
03:21:20,209 --> 03:21:23,850
he said, we are not going
to win the war this way.

2855
03:21:23,850 --> 03:21:32,489
So they replaced him on Saipan 
with General LeMay. General LeMay

2856
03:21:32,489 --> 03:21:37,470
he was experienced in

2857
03:21:37,470 --> 03:21:42,910
Europe with bomb groups
and then he took over.

2858
03:21:44,270 --> 03:21:47,489
And the first thing he said was

2859
03:21:47,489 --> 03:21:52,470
what we are not going to be
doing 30,000 feet anymore.

2860
03:21:52,470 --> 03:21:57,150
The planes are going to fly
at a much lower altitude,

2861
03:21:57,150 --> 03:22:00,170
which would be 10,000 feet,

2862
03:22:00,170 --> 03:22:02,690
some cases 5,000 feet.

2863
03:22:02,690 --> 03:22:11,510
And he also said that

2864
03:22:12,350 --> 03:22:18,490
there'll be no promotions
and no decorations

2865
03:22:18,490 --> 03:22:21,910
and the crews that are

2866
03:22:21,910 --> 03:22:27,389
there are going to be
there till the war ends.

2867
03:22:27,389 --> 03:22:31,230
It's not going to
be the 25 mission

2868
03:22:31,230 --> 03:22:34,630
that was prior to General LeMay.

2869
03:22:34,630 --> 03:22:39,229
Well, and these bombing raids

2870
03:22:41,050 --> 03:22:46,730
5% or else 5 planes
would not return.

2871
03:22:48,610 --> 03:22:58,030
 And if you do the Math, you've got
100 after 20. 20 times 5

2872
03:22:58,030 --> 03:23:04,190
equals 100. So if you
flow in 20 missions,

2873
03:23:04,190 --> 03:23:07,270
you still got five more to go.

2874
03:23:07,270 --> 03:23:13,230
And he said that the
crews are going to stay

2875
03:23:13,230 --> 03:23:19,230
until the war ends. And that's what would happen.

2876
03:23:19,230 --> 03:23:22,949
And then he also said that since

2877
03:23:22,949 --> 03:23:27,970
the Japanese were not having
as many fighters anymore,

2878
03:23:27,970 --> 03:23:32,049
he was going to leave
all the gunners

2879
03:23:32,330 --> 03:23:39,530
back at base and not carry
any ammunition at all.

2880
03:23:39,530 --> 03:23:43,789
And the ammunition for all

2881
03:23:43,789 --> 03:23:46,929
of the guns weighed
about 2000 pounds.

2882
03:23:46,929 --> 03:23:50,350
So what it means
is that instead of

2883
03:23:50,350 --> 03:23:54,870
the 10,000 pounds at the
plane was designed for,

2884
03:23:54,870 --> 03:24:00,069
you could increase it by
leaving the personnel plus

2885
03:24:00,069 --> 03:24:07,910
the ammunition at home
and two extra bombs. Huh

2886
03:24:07,910 --> 03:24:10,769
so his strategy
really changed how,

2887
03:24:10,769 --> 03:24:13,569
how the war kind of
was carried out.

2888
03:24:13,569 --> 03:24:17,570
Well, when I look at it,

2889
03:24:18,170 --> 03:24:21,150
I almost feel that

2890
03:24:21,150 --> 03:24:24,830
he was sending us out more
or less to be killed.

2891
03:24:24,830 --> 03:24:27,290
Yeah. That's really what

2892
03:24:27,290 --> 03:24:30,650
it amounts to because
all of these,

2893
03:24:31,250 --> 03:24:37,649
well, in fact, behind me was
a steel plate armor plate,

2894
03:24:37,649 --> 03:24:42,289
it was about 3 quarters thick and
it was about six foot tall

2895
03:24:42,289 --> 03:24:44,970
and that was taken out also.

2896
03:24:44,970 --> 03:24:51,230
That's terrifying. So
is there anything I

2897
03:24:51,230 --> 03:24:54,170
haven't asked you about
that you want to make sure

2898
03:24:54,170 --> 03:24:57,649
that we have for our record?

2899
03:24:57,649 --> 03:25:02,050
I don't know what,

2900
03:25:03,250 --> 03:25:07,090
possibly you've
covered everything.