>> So I'm here with Mrs.
Birdie Hicks from the Atlanta Student Movement.
Mrs. Hicks. Can you tell us when and where you were born?
>> I was born in Atlanta, August of 1940.
>> And where did you did you say you grew up in Atlanta?
>> I grew up in Atlanta. Atlanta Public Schools
all the way through until college.
>> And where did you go to college?
>> I went to Spelman.
>> Great. And that's where your master's degree is?
>> No. Actually, I got my master's from
National College of Education in Evanston, Illinois.
>> That's great. So when you were at Spelman,
you were involved with the Atlanta student movement.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
>> I can. And I think I
have thought about it more since I have been
older and people know
because generally people didn't know.
I live in Minnesota now and people didn't generally know.
And so after people learned,
they always wanted to talk to me about
it because they didn't know because
people in Minnesota probably didn't know a lot
about the student movement and how it works.
I don't know even how to start because it's
emotional sometimes when I think about it and I
did not realize the significance of it until later.
I was young and enthusiastic and wanted things
changed and we had
wonderful fabulous leaders like Mr. King, my friend.
And so it was really
easy to get involved because it was a cause.
It's something about working with people who have
the same cause and it all came
together at the right time and all for us.
I don't know.
>> Do you have friends at Spelman who got you
involved or how did you meet Lonnie King?
>> Well, I probably went to meet and tell the truth,
I don't really remember.
He was way up there. I was
one of the foot soldiers of people.
But, he was someone I admired and looked
up to and probably I heard about
the meeting and a bunch of us got together to go
to the meeting and from there,
I was all in.
And you know there was a time
when I was never really nervous.
I was more anxious
because it was new and I didn't know what would
happen in terms of how we would
go forward and in retrospect,
I have remembered how people didn't want us to do.
I think people in my church,
people in my family.
My parents were petrified and they
didn't want me to do that.
And the thing about that was and I shared this
with miss King earlier that they didn't,
that's how they had raised me. I thought about it.
It wasn't like I was a frivolous person like that.
But I still was young and wanted to do and that.
But I did respect my parents and
their anxiety and their trepidation about it.
But I realized this is what they raised me to do,
if there was a cause you worked for it.
Just have to be respectful. And all
like my mother would say things
so people can hear what you're saying rather than how you
say it [inaudible] thing.
>> Were they afraid for you?
Yes. Very much.
And that's what it was with everybody.
At the time, I don't think I thought about it like that.
There was a problem to me that
just thought they wanted us
to be kids and wanted to keep telling us.
And then there were people who said,
just wait, give it time in that kind.
Well, enough time had been given.
I had to sit on the back of the bus too many times
and a stand because there was no place to sit.
So the time was right.
>> So what was an experience of
yours from the Sidens that you can remember.
If you could just tell us
an example or a story about that.
>> Well, the thing that I can remember most
is how white would gather around you
and make noises and
tried to scare you and tried to make you
leave and all and how disrespectful they were or,
of course, wouldn't serve you.
>> So were there
white men and women who
were disrespectful to the young women of color?
>> I think mostly I
remember women working behind the counters,
but I think it was mostly men.
But I can't say that I can really remember
>> Do you have a worst moment in some [inaudible]?
>> Not when I was not during the sit ins.
I had scary moments because,
of course, I would not, of course, necessarily,
but I had gotten pretty bold,
so I would get on the bus and sit where I
wanted to sit and leave by the front door.
And once coming from school, actually,
I was getting off at the front door
and the man literally kicked me,
like, with his foot and everything off the bus.
>> The passenger or the bus driver?
>> Yes. It was a passenger and called
me all names and all of that and stuff.
And the bus went on, I think I was madder then scared.
But in retrospect, I'm here by
myself kind of thing where somebody
doubles back kind of thing.
But I went home and I'm going to add this.
You can take it out if you like. I went
home, told my dad.
My dad got his gun, got in the car, chased the bus,
and then I was scared that where that
told my dad because I didn't want
him in trouble kind of thing,
but he didn't catch the bus,
but that was probably
closest because when you're with the group,
even if people are being rude and people were rude
and mean and ignorant.
But when you with the group is something in numbers,
we really had taught and I
firmly believed in the non violence part of it.
After a while you knew it worked because if we
had fought back or said something back,
given the ammonition but it was
like they weren't saying they weren't doing.
Even when a man kicked me off the bus,
I didn't turn around and say anything.
I just tried to keep from falling and went home,
tried not to even run until the bus was gone to tell you
the truth because I didn't want to give them that power.
>> That's right. So it was a moment of strength of you.
>> I think that gave me the strength I feel that I have
now so much of going through that.
And with the group and all.
>> Was there a time
when anyone who wasn't involved in the movement,
maybe someone who was sitting at
a lunch counter or someone who was just
there showed compassion for the students?
>> Well, not when I was there.
I think not everybody joined in who was around,
but I don't think anybody ever showed any compassion.
I don't remember any looks or anything that
would say we're with you
or you go girl know anything like that?
>> So when you were participating in the sit-ins,
the people who crowded around
you were just very aggressive.
>> Very antagonistic taking view.
May I ask you a question.
Have you seen the museum here?
And you said at that lunch
counter? That's pretty accurate.
>> Wow.
Excuse me.
>> They screamed at you these [OVERLAPPING].
>> Yeah.
>> That's just screamed at you.
>> I don't know that it happened all the time every time.
>> But it was obvious they
didn't want the students there.
>> Loud and clear.
>> Did you ever go to jail?
>> I did.
>> How many times do you think?
>> I think twice.
Did I go even twice?
I don't remember. It all runs together.
>> So can you tell me a little
bit about when that happened?
>> Yes. Now that day,
we were at the counter
and it was planned who would go to jail when and where.
Everybody didn't go to jail all the time as I understood.
Like I said, I just followed orders and we had our plan.
But there we refused to
leave and they arrested
us and they put us in a van or truck,
a van I think must have been,
and took us to jail.
And that was pretty weird once you got to jail
because I doubt if
anybody there had ever been to jail
even to visit anybody.
They might have, but I didn't know
anything about the jail.
And I was worried then about
the horror stories you hear about how
they treat black people in jail.
Probably usually black men.
I had never heard of how they might have treated
black women in jail.
You aren't sure what they're going to do to you,
whether they're going to separate you,
isolate you, and do something to you
individually or anything. But they didn't.
As I remember, we were all put in a common area,
showed our bunks and I think
our bunks might have been in the common area.
They must have been because I know the bathroom was out.
There weren't any doors on the bathroom.
We just had to go to the bathroom.
That was really strange for everybody I know.
And our beds were like a slab.
I call it a slab, but a mattress that
was.like probably a heavy blanket or quilt.
It was not a cushy bed like you might have at home.
>> How long did they keep you there?
>> Well, we were able to sign ourselves
out whenever we wanted.
It wasn't a matter of them locking us up forever.
We could sign ourselves out.
And I think my group, I don't know what to do.
It might have been a week. I know it was.
I don't believe it was more than a week.
We were there long enough to be
comfortable and get used to the food.
And we expected bad food and it was bad food.
We weren't expecting any special treatment.
And we also weren't expecting to be able to have books.
We can have our books and we could
do schoolwork if we wanted to.
And I don't remember being one of them,
I have to admit, but some of the kids probably
were trying to do school books.
I know I read a lot. But I read whatever
I wanted to read not necessarily school work.
>> So do you remember going in front of the judge?
>> No. I don't remember how it worked out.
I remember the day we got out of jail,
both Dr. King and Dr. Mays,
who's Morehouse president at the time were there.
And that was really slide.
That was such so uplifting.
I get chills now thinking about it
because they were superheroes.
We didn't know superhero term then,
but it was really important to us that they came down.
And there were other people there too,
but those were the people who I remember.
And I remember how much after
we got out of jail that day,
how many people were there business people that
you did know about the newspaper or something,
not that I knew personally.
Herman Russell might have been there.
Somebody I remember was real supportive of
the movement financially and all and a lot of people.
I think after they realized that we wouldn't be
abused in jail and all I think
people were a lot more supportive.
They were always supportive.
They were just caring and worried because they were
older and they had been through
a lot and knew a lot more than we did, of course.
But we thought at the time we knew more than they did.
I don't remember going through to a courthouse.
I don't remember what we had to do.
I remember we had to be fingerprinted.
I think now if my fingerprint is out there somewhere.
>> So let me ask you.
>> I think I remember that.
>> So what was
your parents' reaction when you went to jail?
>> They were really worried.
They thought that I would be at least hurt if not killed.
And my father,
he was really a loving,
caring, but not demonstrative.
I came home from jail.
For the first time in my life,
I remember seeing him cry as he hugged me.
He still didn't say much.
They never really talked about.
They asked me what had happened and how
things had been and I told them.
So they were relieved but we never had
any great discussion about it, as I remember.
>> So do you have anything
that you wanted to make sure that we
got on record about your experiences in the movement?
>> I can't think of anything else.
>> Were you at Rich's or at
Woolworths doing the sit-ins, do you remember?
>> No. I wasn't at Rich's. In my mind,
I've always said H. L. Greens.
We were at one of those where
they would let blacks eat there,
but you'd have to go around back.
So I knew it wasn't Rich's.
It was one of those other,
the smaller places, counties.
>> H. L. Greens was like a pharmacy,
kind of like a dime store.
>> It was probably more like a dime store
that had great hotdogs.
It was a real treat for a college student to be able to
go even sit in the black part of it.
What I remember about growing up is how parents protected
you from all of this. I'm going to share this.
You can take it out or not. But I can remember
my grandparents lived in Tennessee.
And actually, my grandmother lived in Cartersville.
It was like an hour or two trip.
But the longer trip when we went there,
we had to take what we call a pee can
because we could not use the bathrooms.
And during that time,
they didn't let Blacks use the bathroom.
During that time, I would always wonder why.
Number 1, we had to go at night.
And number 2,
why we couldn't go and use
the bathroom at service station.
But I was an adult
before I realized that, and I thank you,
Lord, my parents lived long
enough for us to talk about that.
And they still didn't have that much response,
but they admitted this was true and we went at night,
so didn't want anybody seeing you when you
pulled over like that over to use the bathroom.
So during that time,
a lot of things I think went into making me want to be
part of the change. And that was part of it.
And I don't know that I realized it so much at the time.
But it was all the,
basically, the degradation blacks
have had to go through.
And then historically, you know what had happened.
And I even had an uncle,
my father who lived in Tennessee,
some white boys killed my uncle.
It was fun for them. They were out in
a boat and they pushed him over and drowned.
My one of my aunts who's living now told us that.
My parents, my father,
they never they never mentioned things like that.
To me, if somebody drowns your child,
you go and you tell the police and all.
And then what good would this have done?
I was never reported.
>> So those boys were never held accountable?
>> No. Not at all.
But things happened.
And the sad part and the part that makes me mad
is I think is that to them, it was just fun.
They were playing. It wasn't fun. It was just fun.
>> So killing someone?
>> Yeah, killing someone. It's just a black guy.
He's he's nothing.
You kill a bug, you kill a black kid.
So even if somebody who you had been
friendly to or who thought you were
their friend. And he was little.
He was, I think, 10, 11 or something.
I mean, a kid kid,
not even a teenager kid.
So yeah.
>> So let me ask you what do you think
about progress that has
been made with civil rights if any?
>> Don't get me started now.
>> And how do we sustain it for future generations?
>> I think what you're doing here I think would be
helpful because young people now really don't know.
I have two daughters.
They're both adults and I have had to
teach them everything they knew because in schools,
they don't teach you anything.
Black history month,
they teach them about [inaudible] and all of that
and some few [inaudible] as I've heard kids call it,
but they don't know the history.
And if I hadn't lived in Atlanta and my kids grew up,
they were born in Chicago,
and when their dad was at graduate school,
he got a job in Minnesota.
In Minnesota, when we moved there in '82,
my daughter was the only black kid in her class.
And my younger daughter,
there might have been one or two.
She was in sixth grade. She was four years younger.
And so if they hadn't known
about how black people
were because they were in Atlanta often,
when they were little growing up,
they were down here with my parents week at the time,
my sisters or something,
but they wouldn't have known anything, not anything.
So I I had to teach them.
And they were always amazed, knowing their mother,
that I really did sit on the back of the bus or get
up when there weren't any seats and had to
let a white person sit down,
and that's what we did.
We didn't know not to do it.
And I think one thing I would like to say is,
and I'll try to get back to what you asked me,
is that whites often will think
that blacks do things out of subservience,
but blacks were taught to be very polite and mannerly.
So if the rule says you stand up when a white person is
there or move back
so the white person could sit in
front of you, you did it.
We followed the rules.
That's why it was so easy for me to do this,
to participate so much,
but I think the more we let the young people
know what really happened without sugarcoating,
and it's hard and it's not pleasant and not teach
it in a way that I have,
white folks say used to say,
some of my best friends, some of
my best friends absolutely are white.
I attended the [inaudible] church
and about half the congregation is white.
So I and a lot of them are
friends that have been there for me.
My daughter lives in Minnesota now,
but for many years,
I was the only person in my family there.
And so these people have been like people,
you forget the color,
you don't think about the color really.
>> Do your friends in Minnesota
know about your participation?
>> They they do now,
and I tell you they are so in awe.
Because they didn't know me initially is that,
but once they learned.
And I have really spoken to schools and things.
So when people know that they
have a real live person there.
I was telling [inaudible] here,
I said when I
was asked to speak black history month to
talk about the student movement and all,
they sent sent a car for me to the school.
And I walk in and
people started applauding I'm looking
around to see who they were applauding for.
It was really thrilling,
and these were young people that I learned,
they had real interesting questions.
These were young people that I
learned who who wanted to know
more and their teacher attends my church.
And so she say, I know somebody.
And then it went from there that people here.
And several times I have been invited to speak.
I really enjoy it because I enjoy,
number 1, sharing it.
People really don't know
and there are people who are interested in it,
and some people really can't believe it.
Some people can't believe it.
Then the other part of your question about
how I think things are.
Minnesota is pretty progressive,
but we still have people there.
So I think still,
you've heard of some of
the things that have happened over the country,
and I know everybody knows Philando Castile's name.
He was killed right down the street from me,
the street I live on.
I live right across from the campus
of the University of Minnesota Agricultural,
and it's really a nice area,
good school district and everything, but still,
the police who police there are biased
and prejudiced, all of them are,
and I know that because I always wave at them,
especially with my grandchildren
lived with me for a while when they moved
from California and I always wanted them to have
good rapport with the police.
So I wave at them and stuff
and have the kids wave at them and all that.
So some of them are really nice,
but all of them aren't.
They target blacks.
>> So that incident
of police brutality that brought nationwide attention,
it was just one of a series of events that happened
that year with profiling and discrimination.
That happened in your neighborhood?
>> Yes. [inaudible] on the street
I've lived for over 30 years.
And I have been to all kind of meetings,
everybody started having meetings then.
Because number 1, the people don't want
their neighborhood to get that reputation,
and I don't either,
but it's like that.
When my grandson who's now 18 first started driving,
he started driving about that time.
I didn't even want him to come over to my house.
>> Because you were afraid for him?
>> Yes. He's a black teenage boy and they are targeted.
Black males are targeted more than black females.
Everybody has shown disrespect to tell
the truth in instances.
I've been in cars with white people
who were stopped because
the tail light was out or something.
They didn't even get anything more than
a verbal warning, a reminder,
say, did you realize your light is out kind of thing?
But this is where he accused this man of, I think that,
his light was out and pulling
over and pulled out the gun.
Do you think that what happened to Philando Castile is
indicative of what's going on still in our country?
>> Yes. All you have to do is look at the news,
and all the police officers
have to do is say they're scared.
I have one brother who lives here and
his son is a police officer.
Actually I have another nephew,
my sister who I'm staying with,
her grandson is a police officer in Clayton County.
But I talked to him just since I've been here.
I asked him, I said, well,
what happens when police officers do that,
and if they are taught
somehow to use that as an excuse when they get scared?
I believe for whatever reason,
they could be scared.
But you don't need to be
scared unless somebody has a gun on you.
If somebody has a gun on you,
it's fair game, you shoot first.
But this man did not have a gun.
And also in Minnesota,
they have this law where you can get a permit,
anybody can carry a gun, whatever that law is.
So what do they expect?
People get guns.
Whether they are permitted or not,
I know people always had guns,
but people will have guns.
I volunteered at a school in Saint Paul.
I taught in Minneapolis by
volunteering and I'm really involved in
the school with the Elder program and
everything there where we tutor the kids,
but we try to mentor their parents in
this area and Saint Paul where this is.
He worked at one of the close by schools,
so a lot of the people knew him.
And seemed like everybody had a lot of respect for
him and all. It just goes on.
And he told him he had a gun
because he was basically saying,
now, if you checked my car and I have it,
I'm telling you beforehand,
but he didn't have his hand on
the gun or he wasn't even trying to get the gun.
And then how the man shot him lots of times?
And I asked my nephew,
why do police officers shoot so many times
even when somebody is running from
them. And that happens.
Well you know, you get the news here too.
But he said, they just get scared.
I said, well, don't they have something that
if you're too scared to be a police officer,
that you aren't a police officer?
Saint Paul Police Chief,
we have a new chief there. They have a new chief.
I don't live in the city, exactly at the adjacent there.
But he is checking those kinds of things before he
hires new police officers
because you want them to be competent and all,
but you do want them to have some soul.
>> Absolutely.
>> That was probably a lot more than you needed to hear?
>> No, I think you did great.
And you're a retired teacher?
>> I am. I retired in 2007.
>> And you taught math?
>> Well, I retired from
teaching special ed in elementary.
>> So would you say as
a teacher that education is really important,
and why would you say education is really
important for us to try to
change and sustain the issues that are right?
>> Well, I think for the college students who need to
know what happened from historical standpoint,
and for kids coming up,
for students coming up.
And black kids were taught. I don't care how.
I grew up in the family and there were seven kids,
one brother and six girls.
And we were taught,
we were all going to college.
Everybody in my family went to college,
who wanted to, all of us.
And actually, it was a white man where my dad
worked who helped all of us go.
My direct contact with whites
before the civil rights movement had been all positive.
I hadn't been just around random white folk who
might harm me or insult me or
something and I lived in an all black neighborhood,
so I didn't have to worry.
Where my kids grew up, they lived in
a mixed neighborhood and they did get it,
but it worked for them.
But I think kids should know the value of education.
And that's one reason I stay so involved.
I want to have all the kids and their parents.
And a lot of the parents is the
same here as everywhere, I'm sure,
where a lot of parents are,
what I call 13-16 years older than their kids,
and maybe they weren't parented or
maybe their parents tried to parent them
and they didn't and they somehow never
got an education and end
up on the streets more than they
should or than I would like to see anyhow.
But I think for their children and for them too,
but now it's probably easier
to influence their children than them.
I would like to see them all get educations and
there's a lot of support in schools now,
but the parents really have to be the ones to do it.
It's not like even I can do it by myself.
I can't love them enough to make them
be, but I won't stop trying.
I'll do what I can.
Education is very important.
And like parents told us,
I'm sure 99% of the parents in Georgia told their kids,
education is something you should have because nobody can
ever take it from you and all.
>> The last thing I wanted to ask you is,
what advice you would have from all of
your experiences to give to
young people today who are trying to make change?
What would you say to them?
>> Probably hang in there. Don't give up.
When I've run across things over the age,
some things I passed on to
younger teachers that I thought would be good.
Some things I made copies and kept one for myself.
There are two things.
One is I ran to a point,
once it says don't quit when things are hard,
and I won't recite it.
But is don't quit and the other one
is something we had to learn in Atlanta Public School,
and it starts out,
I want to deal with myself and so,
I want to be fit for myself to know.
I want to be able to stay sober,
always look at myself straight in the eye.
And it goes on and on. So you know that is in
me if I can remember all of these years.
And I tried to teach that and I have
bribed my children and my students,
my grandchildren with giving them a pint of Haagen-Dazs.
Something they really wanted that their parents
were never going to buy for them.
And students at school,
once you learn that you get your
McDonald's fries, sold in all.
[LAUGHTER] And stuff like that really works.
I don't know whether they would work
now for the kids now.
They might not care.
Of course, they're probably getting all of that stuff,
but the kids then weren't getting it.
And just have that stuff drilled in them.
>> That's great. Mrs. Birdie Hicks,
thank you so much for telling us your story.
>> Well, thank you.
>> Appreciate you.
>> Thank you.