1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,960 >> Go ahead. 2 00:00:03,740 --> 00:00:05,580 >> I'm sorry about that. 3 00:00:05,580 --> 00:00:08,530 >> Well, no problem. 4 00:00:08,690 --> 00:00:12,855 >> Well, I'll move. Thank you. 5 00:00:12,855 --> 00:00:15,060 >> Challenor, right? 6 00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:16,965 >> Challenor, as in church. 7 00:00:16,965 --> 00:00:18,030 >> Challenor. 8 00:00:18,030 --> 00:00:21,030 >> Hershelle Challenor, Take 1. 9 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:23,280 >> Sullivan Challenor. [LAUGHTER] 10 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,500 >> Sullivan Challenor, 11 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:27,420 Scene 1, Take 1. 12 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:33,300 >> So I'm here 13 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:37,975 today speaking with doctor Hershelle Sullivan Challenor, 14 00:00:37,975 --> 00:00:40,530 one of the co-chair of 15 00:00:40,530 --> 00:00:43,000 the Atlanta Student Movement and one of 16 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,480 this core group of folks who were 17 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:50,615 in a brain trust is what Lonnie King and I call it. 18 00:00:50,615 --> 00:00:54,185 They've changed the world certainly. 19 00:00:54,185 --> 00:00:55,780 And so we're just honored that 20 00:00:55,780 --> 00:00:57,970 you took your time to sit and talk with us. 21 00:00:57,970 --> 00:00:58,900 >> Pleasure is mine. 22 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:03,420 >> So important. I wanted to start just at the beginning. 23 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:05,260 If you would tell us a little bit 24 00:01:05,260 --> 00:01:07,620 about where you were born, 25 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:11,280 where you went to school as a young woman, 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,700 and then how it was you came to Spelman? 27 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:19,865 >> Actually, I'm a Grady baby. 28 00:01:19,865 --> 00:01:25,430 I was born in Atlanta as were both of my parents 29 00:01:25,430 --> 00:01:31,770 and went to Spelman nursery school 30 00:01:31,770 --> 00:01:36,225 for a while and then my parents moved North. 31 00:01:36,225 --> 00:01:38,640 My father first, obviously as part of 32 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,850 the exodus of African Americans from the South, 33 00:01:42,850 --> 00:01:45,630 looking for better opportunities. 34 00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:49,630 He wanted to be an engineer, and of course, 35 00:01:49,630 --> 00:01:51,670 Georgia Tech would not allow 36 00:01:51,670 --> 00:01:54,990 him to enter their institution. 37 00:01:55,430 --> 00:01:58,950 I never got it straight. Once I heard that they gave 38 00:01:58,950 --> 00:02:03,170 him money to do Carnegie Tech. 39 00:02:03,170 --> 00:02:05,170 I'm not sure that part is true. 40 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:12,480 But anyway, he did finish Carnegie Tech. 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,790 So born in Atlanta. 42 00:02:15,790 --> 00:02:20,750 I guess when I was about four years old, 43 00:02:20,750 --> 00:02:25,780 we moved to Pittsburgh where Carnegie Tech was located. 44 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:37,100 But obviously, I was so influenced by my parents. 45 00:02:38,310 --> 00:02:43,480 So I said they were both Atlantans. She finished Spelman. 46 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,420 He finished Morehouse, undergrad and then 47 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:49,320 got a master's in 48 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,520 math and then had his engineering degree. 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,020 My mother subsequently when we were in Pittsburgh, 50 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:02,920 got a master's in social work. 51 00:03:06,230 --> 00:03:09,690 There's two of us, one older sister. 52 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:13,170 We were quite fortunate in that our parents valued 53 00:03:13,170 --> 00:03:15,670 education and there was never 54 00:03:15,670 --> 00:03:18,915 a question about us going to college. 55 00:03:18,915 --> 00:03:24,250 That was just something that was understood. 56 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,720 So I didn't really know much about 57 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:34,600 Atlanta until I came back here to go to Spelman College. 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,160 I wanted to go to Spelman, 59 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,130 not only because my mother was a graduate, 60 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:45,330 but also in Pittsburgh, 61 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,035 my sister and I both went to public schools. 62 00:03:50,035 --> 00:03:53,820 And in most instances, 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,525 there were, 1, 64 00:03:57,525 --> 00:04:01,170 2, or 3 African Americans in our class. 65 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:06,460 And so I wanted to have the black experience. 66 00:04:06,460 --> 00:04:13,820 And I think that's why many children of 67 00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:18,720 parents who had gone to historically black college or 68 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,800 university want to have 69 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,215 at least some part of that experience themselves. 70 00:04:23,215 --> 00:04:31,300 So I did go to Spelman as an undergraduate, 71 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:33,750 hated the first year. 72 00:04:33,830 --> 00:04:39,160 And I don't know if you have an understanding of 73 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,360 what it's like to be raised in 74 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,060 the North and come to the South. 75 00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:53,940 It's true that the only person 76 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:56,780 who called me a nigger was someone in the North. 77 00:04:56,780 --> 00:04:58,780 It never happened in the South. 78 00:04:58,780 --> 00:05:00,540 Well, I was a baby. 79 00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:02,160 We didn't stay here that long. 80 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,680 And then, of course, during the civil rights movement, 81 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,720 we had all unkind things fed to us. 82 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:18,985 But both of us came. 83 00:05:18,985 --> 00:05:21,160 Both my sister and I. 84 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,490 And I don't regret it. 85 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:29,470 I remember going to my first football game at Spelman. 86 00:05:29,470 --> 00:05:32,950 I had never seen so many African American people 87 00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:35,180 in one place in my life. 88 00:05:35,180 --> 00:05:40,140 [LAUGHTER] And it was really quite different. 89 00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:43,050 Back to my parents. So I had 90 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:47,120 a very happy childhood as 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,715 far as that was concerned 92 00:05:48,715 --> 00:05:51,415 except that my sister was very smart. 93 00:05:51,415 --> 00:05:58,470 She's has a doctorate too in cytogenetics. 94 00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:00,900 And so it's interesting 95 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,840 that we were in such different fields. 96 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:05,920 I'm in the social sciences 97 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,700 and she was in the natural sciences. 98 00:06:11,980 --> 00:06:17,580 Growing up, in Pittsburgh, 99 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:26,180 both of us were usually not usually, 100 00:06:26,180 --> 00:06:28,660 we were always in the top tier of our class. 101 00:06:28,660 --> 00:06:32,930 We took our study seriously. 102 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,085 Childhood was much like others. 103 00:06:38,085 --> 00:06:40,220 Well, I wanted to study ballet, 104 00:06:40,220 --> 00:06:41,980 and my parents didn't 105 00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:44,620 really think that was such a good idea. 106 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:50,620 But normal childhood. 107 00:06:52,380 --> 00:06:57,260 We had black kids 108 00:06:57,980 --> 00:07:01,920 whose parents had different orientations. 109 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,620 I don't mean in terms of gender or sexuality, 110 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:08,520 but I mean they came 111 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,780 from less well educated parentage and 112 00:07:13,780 --> 00:07:16,220 these kids didn't particularly 113 00:07:16,220 --> 00:07:18,860 want to be in school and so they would 114 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:24,660 chase us home from school and argue and fight with us, 115 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:29,160 but other than that, a normal childhood. 116 00:07:31,370 --> 00:07:34,840 Perhaps the most important thing 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,060 to me was the chance to study abroad. 118 00:07:38,060 --> 00:07:41,545 That was made possible by Spelman College. 119 00:07:41,545 --> 00:07:47,130 And I don't know 120 00:07:47,130 --> 00:07:48,750 if you know that Myra Stillard 121 00:07:48,750 --> 00:07:51,940 also was a Merrill scholar. 122 00:07:54,470 --> 00:07:59,985 But that was transforming, 123 00:07:59,985 --> 00:08:01,710 as was the ability 124 00:08:01,710 --> 00:08:04,780 to be part of the civil rights movement. 125 00:08:06,170 --> 00:08:09,195 I don't know what else you wanted to know. 126 00:08:09,195 --> 00:08:10,785 >> Like when you went abroad 127 00:08:10,785 --> 00:08:14,730 and equality was just the norm, 128 00:08:14,730 --> 00:08:17,430 more so than the American South. 129 00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:20,160 And then you came back to the American South. 130 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:25,090 So what year was that that you came back? 131 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,810 >> It would've been September 1960.. 132 00:08:32,210 --> 00:08:36,315 >> And you came back to a place 133 00:08:36,315 --> 00:08:40,020 where quality wasn't only available or valued. 134 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:42,720 It was shunned. 135 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,850 And legally so. I mean, 136 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:46,905 there were institutions in place in 137 00:08:46,905 --> 00:08:50,745 the American South that you were not equal. 138 00:08:50,745 --> 00:08:55,210 And how did that impact you? 139 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,830 >> Well, one of the things that struck 140 00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:03,990 me as an African American, 141 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:07,485 I was very interested in African students. 142 00:09:07,485 --> 00:09:09,060 The time I was there 143 00:09:09,060 --> 00:09:13,240 was really the eve of Francophone Africa. 144 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,875 I studied at the Sorbonne in Paris 145 00:09:19,875 --> 00:09:25,965 and was just fascinated by the French language. 146 00:09:25,965 --> 00:09:28,260 I know my father was interested in 147 00:09:28,260 --> 00:09:32,865 the French when he was at college. 148 00:09:32,865 --> 00:09:37,080 And one of the things that 149 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,940 struck me so much in talking with African students 150 00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:45,450 was the realization that we as 151 00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:49,020 African Americans could never go 152 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:51,300 back and have an opportunity to run for 153 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:56,190 president of a country that was ours. 154 00:09:56,190 --> 00:09:59,880 And I cannot tell you how much the election 155 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,800 of Barack Obama meant to 156 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,080 me and so many African Americans. 157 00:10:07,910 --> 00:10:12,330 But then there were other things 158 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:17,080 that I guess I just enjoyed French culture. 159 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:27,010 And I really think that Spelman and Morehouse had 160 00:10:27,170 --> 00:10:33,095 expanded there for study abroad programs 161 00:10:33,095 --> 00:10:35,150 so that now almost any student 162 00:10:35,150 --> 00:10:36,800 who wants to do it can do it, 163 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,725 and I think that's vital. 164 00:10:38,725 --> 00:10:41,895 >> So you came back in September 165 00:10:41,895 --> 00:10:43,965 the Atlanta student movement? 166 00:10:43,965 --> 00:10:48,645 >> Yes. This was the year after it was started. 167 00:10:48,645 --> 00:10:54,405 But even before the Atlanta student movement 168 00:10:54,405 --> 00:10:58,240 began as the student movement. 169 00:10:59,660 --> 00:11:01,980 Well, I don't know. You haven't talked 170 00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:03,540 with any Spelman students. 171 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:06,660 Am I the first Spelman students with whom you've spoke? 172 00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:10,785 >> Dr. Pope and Dr. Middlebrooks. 173 00:11:10,785 --> 00:11:12,705 >> But I'm the first one you've spoke? 174 00:11:12,705 --> 00:11:13,160 >> Yeah. 175 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,820 >> Well, we had a professor Oh, God. 176 00:11:19,850 --> 00:11:24,465 Sit. You see old age. 177 00:11:24,465 --> 00:11:25,830 Try to think of his name. 178 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:31,020 Howard. Howard was a social science professor. 179 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:36,600 We didn't have a major in 180 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,910 say political science and so I had 181 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:42,765 to do a social science curriculum which was fine. 182 00:11:42,765 --> 00:11:45,660 And he influenced any of us. 183 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:47,760 He was a Jewish American, 184 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,690 out of New York brass, 185 00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:57,870 and bright, and unusual. 186 00:11:57,870 --> 00:12:06,150 And so he was a great influence on the Spelman nights. 187 00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:12,820 And so even before the beginning of the student movement, 188 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:16,680 he insisted that we go to 189 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:21,785 places to try out some of the white churches. 190 00:12:21,785 --> 00:12:24,940 I was physically removed from a white church. 191 00:12:24,940 --> 00:12:28,730 And I can tell you it changed my attitude. 192 00:12:28,730 --> 00:12:30,830 That in going to South Africa and 193 00:12:30,830 --> 00:12:33,800 seeing how the South Africans used 194 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:43,110 religion as a weapon against black South Africans. 195 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,800 But it was Howard Zinn that started 196 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,230 pushing us out to do 197 00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:56,110 things that African Americans didn't usually do. 198 00:12:56,150 --> 00:13:02,460 One of the most profound well, it was silly. 199 00:13:02,460 --> 00:13:05,480 I mean, it's snapping. 200 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:12,410 I went to Fox and I just went once. It was raining. 201 00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:14,120 And I don't know if you know it, 202 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,500 but at that time, 203 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:19,165 African Americans had to walk outside. 204 00:13:19,165 --> 00:13:21,525 It was raining that day. 205 00:13:21,525 --> 00:13:25,050 And we could not sit on the first level. 206 00:13:25,050 --> 00:13:28,245 We had to walk outside to get to the balcony. 207 00:13:28,245 --> 00:13:30,135 Those were good seats, 208 00:13:30,135 --> 00:13:36,570 but I went that once and 209 00:13:36,570 --> 00:13:39,390 I think I've only been back once 210 00:13:39,390 --> 00:13:43,750 since it's humiliating experience. 211 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:51,420 At Spelman, we didn't often used the buses, 212 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:54,450 we were so restricted and I don't know 213 00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:57,240 if others have talked to you about. 214 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,830 Well, I don't know. You've talked with 215 00:13:58,830 --> 00:14:01,470 Morris and he's a southerner. 216 00:14:01,470 --> 00:14:04,695 >> I know that the gates were closed. 217 00:14:04,695 --> 00:14:08,190 >> So you've heard about the restriction did in or out. 218 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:09,525 >> You guys had a curfew? 219 00:14:09,525 --> 00:14:16,120 >> Oh, yes, we did. And while my parents, 220 00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:22,275 when my sister and I had our first dates, 221 00:14:22,275 --> 00:14:26,200 my father came and gave them the lecture. 222 00:14:30,620 --> 00:14:36,255 They were concerned that everything was handled properly. 223 00:14:36,255 --> 00:14:44,040 But Spelman was different 224 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,970 because we had visiting hours. 225 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:55,905 And we couldn't go off campus alone. 226 00:14:55,905 --> 00:14:58,410 I remember if we had a date, 227 00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:01,450 we had to go in a group with a chaperone. 228 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,375 And I just felt that was so ridiculous. 229 00:15:06,375 --> 00:15:07,710 >> And that wasn't something that you'd 230 00:15:07,710 --> 00:15:09,240 experienced in your home life? 231 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:09,630 >> No. 232 00:15:09,630 --> 00:15:12,195 >> It was stricter than that? 233 00:15:12,195 --> 00:15:16,870 >> Yes, because of the, 234 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:24,360 some of prejudice and all those things that 235 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,720 could happen to a person here. 236 00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:32,800 So that was difficult. 237 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:39,090 >> So when you joined 238 00:15:39,090 --> 00:15:41,190 the Atlanta student movement as the co-chair, 239 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:44,670 you were already aware of all the things that 240 00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:49,360 could happen because of what you were doing? 241 00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:56,040 >> That didn't seem to matter. 242 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,050 It didn't seem to matter. 243 00:15:58,050 --> 00:15:59,655 As I said, after I came back, 244 00:15:59,655 --> 00:16:02,910 I just felt like here or the African students had 245 00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:05,190 an opportunity to do things and to grow 246 00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:08,470 and I wanted an opportunity to protest. 247 00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:14,985 So it was just a natural. 248 00:16:14,985 --> 00:16:17,910 Obviously, I kept in touch with 249 00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:20,700 students through letters then. 250 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,165 We didn't have cell phones. 251 00:16:24,165 --> 00:16:28,800 So I was informed about what was going on here. 252 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,655 And so obviously wanted to be a part of it. 253 00:16:32,655 --> 00:16:35,370 So I think it was about the second day 254 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:37,320 I was on campus when I returned in 255 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,180 September of 1960 that Lonnie got in touch with me. 256 00:16:42,180 --> 00:16:51,340 And we sat down and talked and it was sign me up. 257 00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:54,660 And I think next to 258 00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:59,340 the chance to spend a year mainly in France, 259 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:02,395 but tour a lot of Europe. 260 00:17:02,395 --> 00:17:04,710 The student movement was one of 261 00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:07,810 the most important things I've been engaged in. 262 00:17:07,850 --> 00:17:12,255 And what I found 263 00:17:12,255 --> 00:17:18,420 intriguing was that when we went to jail, 264 00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:21,370 well, as you may know. 265 00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:28,365 There were three times when students were arrested. 266 00:17:28,365 --> 00:17:31,800 The first time and you'll hear this from 267 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:40,570 Roslyn Pope was in March, 268 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,680 I think it was the 13th. 269 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,455 But they were arrested 270 00:17:46,455 --> 00:17:49,770 but were released on their own recognizance. 271 00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:55,485 It was only in beginning in October 19th, 272 00:17:55,485 --> 00:17:58,650 that it was Lonnie 273 00:17:58,650 --> 00:18:01,395 who took the decision and it made lot sense. 274 00:18:01,395 --> 00:18:03,885 He said, we want to up the ante 275 00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:07,585 and so we want to stay in jail. 276 00:18:07,585 --> 00:18:09,885 Really as another way of exerting 277 00:18:09,885 --> 00:18:17,180 economic pressure on the state of Georgia. 278 00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:19,880 >> That was when jail no bail. 279 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:29,710 >> That's right. Exactly. And I must say to you, 280 00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:35,040 you hear quite a lot 281 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,505 of things as an African American female. 282 00:18:38,505 --> 00:18:42,480 I was very much concerned about being 283 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,850 accosted by white jailkeepers, 284 00:18:47,850 --> 00:18:50,470 whatever their names are. 285 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,850 But I felt we had to do it. 286 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:01,810 When we were arrested and there weren't that. 287 00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:06,120 Well, maybe I should back up 288 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:12,030 because students we were sitting 289 00:19:12,030 --> 00:19:15,550 in and students could 290 00:19:16,910 --> 00:19:21,825 decide whether or not they wanted to go to jail or not. 291 00:19:21,825 --> 00:19:24,885 And there were no hard feelings either way. 292 00:19:24,885 --> 00:19:27,570 We recognize that. For some students, 293 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:30,105 it just wasn't something they wanted to do. 294 00:19:30,105 --> 00:19:32,220 But I guess when we were arrested, 295 00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:39,540 there were about I say about 52 of us. 296 00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:43,080 And I was with a group that 297 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,620 was went to the Atlanta jail and 298 00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:53,550 not to the State facility. 299 00:19:53,550 --> 00:19:58,320 And they called the Atlanta jail, 300 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,645 what was it Atlanta Arms because that was 301 00:20:00,645 --> 00:20:05,170 so much nicer than the State prison. 302 00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:09,900 But that was that was tough. 303 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,545 We were put into a cell with 304 00:20:13,545 --> 00:20:19,270 about I would say 40 other women. 305 00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:23,610 And we didn't know what to expect. 306 00:20:23,610 --> 00:20:33,615 So we had appointed, we took turns. 307 00:20:33,615 --> 00:20:38,460 We had people designated to watch as guides 308 00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:45,135 over the women through the night and everything was fine. 309 00:20:45,135 --> 00:20:49,650 The women who were in the cell were very protective of us 310 00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:55,810 and very proud of us and that that was encouraging. 311 00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:11,880 The plan changed somewhat because 312 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,640 the downtown businessmen said that 313 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,415 they were willing to sit down and talk. 314 00:21:18,415 --> 00:21:25,545 And so if we would stop the demonstrating, 315 00:21:25,545 --> 00:21:30,945 then they would release us. 316 00:21:30,945 --> 00:21:32,910 But we were fine. 317 00:21:32,910 --> 00:21:37,710 I remember when the innkeepers 318 00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:39,000 came and told us that we were all 319 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,860 being released. We were shocked. 320 00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:44,280 And I remember two of the students cried. 321 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,750 Why are you releasing us? 322 00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:48,130 We're supposed to stay here. 323 00:21:49,010 --> 00:21:52,450 Jail was not pleasant. 324 00:21:52,580 --> 00:21:55,560 Only if you were pregnant, 325 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,365 could you have regular milk with breakfast? 326 00:21:58,365 --> 00:22:00,015 Otherwise, it was butter milk. 327 00:22:00,015 --> 00:22:03,750 It was some gruel we had to eat. 328 00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:05,415 The food was terrible. 329 00:22:05,415 --> 00:22:09,120 But I must say we were 330 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:14,340 never taken advantage of in any way. 331 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,820 And for that, I was most grateful because I think that's 332 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:21,210 the one thing that women fear 333 00:22:21,210 --> 00:22:24,930 the most being raped or physically abused in 334 00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:31,750 some way forcefully when you have no power to respond. 335 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:40,200 But what surprised me 336 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:47,025 was how willing the Atlanta Spelman students were. 337 00:22:47,025 --> 00:22:50,370 I will say and Lonnie agrees with 338 00:22:50,370 --> 00:22:53,130 this with great reluctance that Spelman 339 00:22:53,130 --> 00:22:55,500 had the largest percentage of students who 340 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:59,550 participated in the civil rights movement. 341 00:22:59,550 --> 00:23:02,175 And there were options. 342 00:23:02,175 --> 00:23:07,890 You could pick it or you could come and make sandwiches 343 00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:14,175 or put together picket sides. 344 00:23:14,175 --> 00:23:15,510 So there were things you could do, 345 00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:18,180 you weren't didn't you weren't forced to go to jail, 346 00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:24,870 but many of the Atlanta students 347 00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:27,120 from Spelman decided to do so. 348 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,400 >> And that's interesting to me as as 349 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,870 a woman on a very personal level. 350 00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:36,540 And I wanted to ask you about that. 351 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,820 So the number of 352 00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:40,755 Spelman women who took 353 00:23:40,755 --> 00:23:43,155 up this cause this important cause. 354 00:23:43,155 --> 00:23:46,990 And also you personally as a leader, 355 00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:55,140 how did you feel about that? 356 00:23:55,140 --> 00:23:58,260 And how did you negotiate those spaces as 357 00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:01,995 the co-chair of the movement and you were a woman? 358 00:24:01,995 --> 00:24:04,680 >> I guess the first should be underlining 359 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,805 Rothan had the same experience. She will tell you. 360 00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:12,340 When I came back from Europe, 361 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,575 I had to do an extra year. 362 00:24:16,575 --> 00:24:21,885 And so my classmates had already been graduated, 363 00:24:21,885 --> 00:24:24,930 but they elected me in absentia 364 00:24:24,930 --> 00:24:28,770 to be president of the student body. 365 00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:33,610 The same thing occurred with Roslyn. 366 00:24:37,850 --> 00:24:41,610 I was in the leadership position at 367 00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:44,610 the time that I 368 00:24:44,610 --> 00:24:47,205 got involved in the Atlanta student movement? 369 00:24:47,205 --> 00:24:50,770 Yes. As was Roslyn. 370 00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:57,815 And when I went to Spelman, 371 00:24:57,815 --> 00:25:00,965 I was elected president of the freshman class and so 372 00:25:00,965 --> 00:25:04,710 I was an outgoing person 373 00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:08,010 and so I liked doing things like that. 374 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:15,255 [LAUGHTER] The other thing, 375 00:25:15,255 --> 00:25:18,630 too, I think, is coming well, 376 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:22,120 being socialized in the North. 377 00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:27,960 I guess the Northerners from more assertive. 378 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,590 It was very difficult for some of the students at 379 00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:37,600 Spelman whose parents lived and worked in Atlanta, 380 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,950 most as teachers because they were threatened. 381 00:25:41,950 --> 00:25:45,150 I said, do it and you lose your job. 382 00:25:45,150 --> 00:25:49,740 So there were many outsiders. 383 00:25:49,740 --> 00:25:55,380 Well, non-Atlanta students who were participants? 384 00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:57,270 Probably disproportionate? 385 00:25:57,270 --> 00:26:01,180 Disproportionate number had to do had to do it. 386 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:09,080 >> So kind of building on that experience. 387 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,670 So as the co chair, 388 00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:12,980 in addition to going to jail, 389 00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:15,050 in addition to doing the sit-ins, 390 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:20,135 you also were Lonnie's co chair 391 00:26:20,135 --> 00:26:21,620 when you all went to that 392 00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:23,960 secret Atlanta Chamber of Commerce meeting, 393 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,030 and you had to negotiate that as well. 394 00:26:26,030 --> 00:26:31,715 Was that something for you as a young woman of color? 395 00:26:31,715 --> 00:26:34,760 And here you are, I think it was 396 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,555 the Chamber of Commerce meeting in March of 1961. 397 00:26:38,555 --> 00:26:40,610 Where they called you both in 398 00:26:40,610 --> 00:26:44,600 there and tried to trick you into saying, 399 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,305 hey, we're going to stop this if you all will agree. 400 00:26:48,305 --> 00:26:50,600 How was that for you as a young woman of color, 401 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,640 walking into this room 402 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,310 with very powerful men at the time? 403 00:27:00,790 --> 00:27:04,745 >> Well, having been socialized in the North, 404 00:27:04,745 --> 00:27:08,015 it wasn't that big of a deal. 405 00:27:08,015 --> 00:27:12,260 But the fact that it was 406 00:27:12,260 --> 00:27:17,720 the leading business community of Atlanta. 407 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:27,000 And mainly we listened. 408 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,480 As you know at the first time they invited us in, 409 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,220 they had already decided 410 00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:40,040 on the substance of the agreement, 411 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,350 which was to seem 412 00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:48,695 to do something but to have everything remain the same. 413 00:27:48,695 --> 00:27:51,770 I think the main concern of 414 00:27:51,770 --> 00:27:55,760 the white political leadership in Atlanta 415 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:01,490 was submit as they had to 416 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:05,660 to the Brown v. 417 00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:08,180 Board of Education decision of the Supreme Court, 418 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:14,570 which would have enforced school desegregation and let 419 00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:17,660 the court and not a bunch of 420 00:28:17,660 --> 00:28:19,220 rag tag students be 421 00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:22,415 the determinant of them changing their minds. 422 00:28:22,415 --> 00:28:25,865 And so when you look at the final agreement, 423 00:28:25,865 --> 00:28:32,290 the final agreement was that they would not desegregate 424 00:28:32,290 --> 00:28:36,920 the counters until they 425 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,870 enforced the Supreme Court ruling 426 00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:40,505 to desegregate the schools. 427 00:28:40,505 --> 00:28:42,440 >> And that would have been until the next fall. 428 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,945 >> It was the next fall in September. 429 00:28:44,945 --> 00:28:49,435 After most of us had left the campus. 430 00:28:49,435 --> 00:28:52,960 So didn't get us the opportunity to benefit 431 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:59,220 from the initiative we had taken. But that was all right. 432 00:28:59,220 --> 00:29:04,910 And I have this document here. 433 00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:09,980 I must say when the agreement 434 00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:14,390 that had been made between the students, 435 00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:18,830 Madi and I were the only students in the room and 436 00:29:18,830 --> 00:29:25,920 the negotiating committee for the white businessman. 437 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:33,215 Lonnie and I were very much against it. 438 00:29:33,215 --> 00:29:38,960 And as this article says, yes, 439 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:45,125 this is a genuine issue of the Atlanta Inquirer. 440 00:29:45,125 --> 00:29:47,840 I guess you've been told that Atlanta Inquirer 441 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,305 was a newspaper that grew out of the student movement. 442 00:29:51,305 --> 00:29:56,000 Julian Bond was one of the main persons involved. 443 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,230 >> Hold it up a little bit. 444 00:29:57,230 --> 00:30:01,655 >> Sure. And it was weekly. 445 00:30:01,655 --> 00:30:05,705 And we felt we had to do this because 446 00:30:05,705 --> 00:30:08,930 even the African American-owned newspaper 447 00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:13,040 refused to print the news of what was going on. 448 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,525 >> That was the Atlanta Daily World. 449 00:30:14,525 --> 00:30:16,940 >> The Daily world. That is correct. 450 00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:22,550 Eventually, the Atlanta Journal Constitution did 451 00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:27,980 publish more and more about the student movement as 452 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:30,770 it grew larger and it 453 00:30:30,770 --> 00:30:34,740 became a phenomenon in the South itself. 454 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,975 >> So after you left the Chamber of Commerce, 455 00:30:41,975 --> 00:30:47,150 and my understanding of what Lonnie said was that, 456 00:30:47,150 --> 00:30:53,315 the blight power structure said something wasn't true, 457 00:30:53,315 --> 00:30:55,250 which was that you had already agreed. 458 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:56,780 >> That's right. 459 00:30:56,780 --> 00:31:01,940 >> And so were you at Warren Memorial that night when 460 00:31:01,940 --> 00:31:06,680 that crowd was so upset because they felt betrayed? 461 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,435 >> Absolutely. 462 00:31:08,435 --> 00:31:10,055 >> What was that like? 463 00:31:10,055 --> 00:31:13,400 >> Well, as this article says, 464 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,380 we felt very badly because we felt did what we could, 465 00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:21,500 but we didn't do what we thought we should have done. 466 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:27,080 And so as you know we offered to resign our roles 467 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:35,990 and at the church, they said, no. 468 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:40,170 And that was gratifying. 469 00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:43,460 But I think the thing 470 00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:50,435 that impressed me the most was the extent to which 471 00:31:50,435 --> 00:31:54,050 these five institutions cooperated 472 00:31:54,050 --> 00:32:00,080 and often there was 473 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,555 rivalry between the institutions, but there was none. 474 00:32:02,555 --> 00:32:04,475 If you were involved in the movement, 475 00:32:04,475 --> 00:32:11,270 then you reported to our office at Rush Memorial 476 00:32:11,270 --> 00:32:19,340 and you did the task 477 00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:22,280 that they asked you to do and gratefully. 478 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,110 I was very much 479 00:32:26,140 --> 00:32:28,730 impressed by the extent to 480 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:32,705 which African American cab drivers, 481 00:32:32,705 --> 00:32:37,610 they would come to our headquarters and take students, 482 00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:41,270 drive students down to their picketing sites. 483 00:32:41,270 --> 00:32:46,010 I must say that we were a very well-organized movement. 484 00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:48,800 Lonnie probably discussed the extent to which at 485 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,260 one point we were using 486 00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:53,840 walkie talkies because we had 487 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,800 to keep the picket lines going. 488 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,360 And the strategy with 489 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,330 picketing was you go and sit 490 00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:08,735 in once the lunch counter shuts down, 491 00:33:08,735 --> 00:33:10,505 you move on to another. 492 00:33:10,505 --> 00:33:15,215 So it was hit and run, but we didn't run. 493 00:33:15,215 --> 00:33:18,770 But the purpose was to shut it down because 494 00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:26,970 the the secondary point was not only to inconvenience. 495 00:33:30,570 --> 00:33:34,870 White purchases, but also 496 00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:38,710 to have a little economic pain 497 00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:40,450 for the businessmen themselves. 498 00:33:40,450 --> 00:33:44,980 So there was an economic dimension to it. 499 00:33:44,980 --> 00:33:49,315 >> And that was something I think that and I wanted you, 500 00:33:49,315 --> 00:33:52,150 before we ended to 501 00:33:52,150 --> 00:33:54,250 have a chance to talk about what you would say to 502 00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:56,590 the youth of today who are still 503 00:33:56,590 --> 00:34:00,070 struggling for civil rights in 2017, 504 00:34:00,070 --> 00:34:03,385 because one of the successes that I've heard 505 00:34:03,385 --> 00:34:06,720 a few movement veterans talk 506 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,620 about is that it 507 00:34:08,620 --> 00:34:11,140 wasn't just about the boycotts and the sit-ins, 508 00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:15,760 it was about the economic and the legal pressure that you 509 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:16,900 all were able to bring to 510 00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:21,620 Bayer on the white power structure. 511 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,850 >> Absolutely. No. And ML Reverend King 512 00:34:27,850 --> 00:34:30,025 said this very clearly. 513 00:34:30,025 --> 00:34:34,720 And it's often misunderstood. 514 00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:36,430 I was reading some things that had been 515 00:34:36,430 --> 00:34:39,490 printed up by dictionaries, 516 00:34:39,490 --> 00:34:43,100 people who thought they understood what was going on. 517 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:50,680 There were four distinct civil rights movements. 518 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,115 And obviously, you're familiar with them, 519 00:34:54,115 --> 00:34:58,810 but NAACP 1909 initiated 520 00:34:58,810 --> 00:35:02,840 by Dubois and others, was the oldest. 521 00:35:04,170 --> 00:35:06,445 And they were interested 522 00:35:06,445 --> 00:35:09,640 in working through the court system. 523 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,370 And then there was 524 00:35:15,660 --> 00:35:22,300 a movement core founded in Chicago 525 00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:29,845 in 1942, I believe. 526 00:35:29,845 --> 00:35:38,380 And so much more aggressive approach, 527 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:44,575 then of course, SCLC King's movement, 528 00:35:44,575 --> 00:35:51,340 '67, and then SNCC in '61, 529 00:35:51,340 --> 00:35:54,460 the student non coordinating committee. 530 00:35:54,460 --> 00:36:01,240 And the direct action campaign was something that 531 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:04,060 the students were much more interested in in 532 00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:09,535 the slower approach of the NAACP. 533 00:36:09,535 --> 00:36:12,655 I guess Lonnie told you how the college presidents 534 00:36:12,655 --> 00:36:15,940 told the students be patient. 535 00:36:15,940 --> 00:36:18,100 Let's go through the court system. 536 00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:20,755 But it was too slow. 537 00:36:20,755 --> 00:36:23,690 And we were too anxious. 538 00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:26,530 There were so many other things 539 00:36:26,530 --> 00:36:28,730 I wanted to tell you and I. 540 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:38,060 >> Well, like so tell me, I would love to hear them. 541 00:36:38,610 --> 00:36:42,580 So when you were forming and 542 00:36:42,580 --> 00:36:45,670 writing an appeal for human rights 543 00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:48,400 and all those different sections of 544 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,960 the appeal from law enforcement to 545 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,195 education to voting rights. 546 00:36:52,195 --> 00:36:57,340 Those are still things that aren't achieved today. 547 00:36:57,340 --> 00:36:59,620 >> No, that is correct. And of course Roslyn is 548 00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:03,055 the person to talk to you about that Roslyn Pope. 549 00:37:03,055 --> 00:37:09,130 I must say though on the 40th anniversary. 550 00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:15,370 I looked at those segments 551 00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:20,335 again and did another appeal. 552 00:37:20,335 --> 00:37:27,610 And things have gotten in many ways worse. 553 00:37:27,610 --> 00:37:32,510 So that was a tragedy. 554 00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:38,830 I must confess that today, 555 00:37:38,830 --> 00:37:41,930 I am much more concerned. 556 00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:53,890 I don't think racism has increased. 557 00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:55,360 It's just more vert. 558 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:08,920 And it creates anxiety and at the same time, 559 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,870 it's disillusioning because you 560 00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:12,895 wonder what was it all for. 561 00:38:12,895 --> 00:38:19,450 And we realized that with civil rights movement, 562 00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:21,520 we could change behavior. 563 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,645 But we couldn't guarantee that you could change attitude. 564 00:38:25,645 --> 00:38:30,790 And I think what's going on now in 565 00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:32,530 our body politic is just 566 00:38:32,530 --> 00:38:37,910 so reprehensible and unforgivable. 567 00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:50,360 In many ways, what bothers me most about Trump 568 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,720 is I've never seen someone 569 00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:00,375 who was so publicly masochistic, 570 00:39:00,375 --> 00:39:10,000 so self absorbed, who has 571 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:18,050 such disrespect for other people. 572 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,520 And we were raised a certain way. 573 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:26,380 And when I think of 574 00:39:26,380 --> 00:39:32,840 all the chiefs of state that came before him, 575 00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:44,920 I worry about this country because this is a man 576 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:53,740 that cares about nothing but himself and his family. 577 00:39:53,740 --> 00:40:00,445 And just has no social graces. 578 00:40:00,445 --> 00:40:03,790 One of the things that we were raised 579 00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:08,335 as in my family to believe that you're polite to people. 580 00:40:08,335 --> 00:40:13,585 If you have negative feelings and keep them to yourself, 581 00:40:13,585 --> 00:40:16,810 I have a quiet one on one discussion with that person. 582 00:40:16,810 --> 00:40:19,315 But you don't criticize people. 583 00:40:19,315 --> 00:40:22,190 You don't use vulgarity. 584 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:28,150 And he seems to want to keep 585 00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:33,250 things confused all the time. 586 00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:36,475 And I think that there is a general feeling of 587 00:40:36,475 --> 00:40:42,220 anxiety because somehow with television, 588 00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:43,570 you can't get away from it. 589 00:40:43,570 --> 00:40:48,320 [LAUGHTER] It's hard. It's hard to stay away. 590 00:40:50,580 --> 00:40:53,260 So I guess I feel 591 00:40:53,260 --> 00:41:00,250 that what I thought we had worked for and accomplished, 592 00:41:00,250 --> 00:41:02,995 not accomplished because as I said, 593 00:41:02,995 --> 00:41:05,695 you change rules, you don't change 594 00:41:05,695 --> 00:41:08,530 minds all the time, certainly not attitudes. 595 00:41:08,530 --> 00:41:15,470 But it's all gone down the drain now. It's open season. 596 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:22,000 I remember once during the sit-in movement, 597 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,740 the clan was marching on one side, 598 00:41:26,740 --> 00:41:28,510 picketing on one side 599 00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:31,855 of riches and we were on the other side. 600 00:41:31,855 --> 00:41:35,155 But they were respectful. 601 00:41:35,155 --> 00:41:37,600 I remember sitting in a counter and 602 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,340 having a white man spit at me. 603 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:48,380 Of course, we couldn't do anything even turn our heads. 604 00:41:48,450 --> 00:41:51,770 And that was good discipline. 605 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,950 But I've never been so 606 00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:59,140 embarrassed by an individual as I 607 00:41:59,140 --> 00:42:02,170 am by a current president. 608 00:42:02,170 --> 00:42:05,170 And I don't know why 609 00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:08,860 and I have to say this White Americans 610 00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:13,340 won't put an end 611 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,425 to this embarrassment and just impeach him. 612 00:42:17,425 --> 00:42:20,980 He's unfit to be president. 613 00:42:20,980 --> 00:42:27,100 And already, you see an erosion in 614 00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:37,000 American authority and soft power, it's gone. 615 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,820 It's gone. And I don't think 616 00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:43,285 that will come back so easily. 617 00:42:43,285 --> 00:42:46,750 I don't know how people of 618 00:42:46,750 --> 00:42:48,400 goodwill because we always talked 619 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,100 about people of goodwill should do this. 620 00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:55,670 I cannot understand Republicans 621 00:42:56,190 --> 00:43:03,230 who I gather are so interested in maintaining power 622 00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:09,870 in the Congress and otherwise. 623 00:43:09,870 --> 00:43:13,530 I've worked on the Hill for 624 00:43:13,530 --> 00:43:20,760 about five years and it's a wonderful experience. 625 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,650 And I think that 626 00:43:25,010 --> 00:43:28,350 more students should do internships on the Hill. 627 00:43:28,350 --> 00:43:31,050 I think it's a great thing to do. 628 00:43:31,050 --> 00:43:35,580 But everything is being 629 00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:39,690 demeaned and nothing seems sacred, 630 00:43:39,690 --> 00:43:42,520 and I just find it quite troubling. 631 00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:49,080 >> So what can we do? Can we go back to the appeal? 632 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,760 Can we write another appeal? 633 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,855 What can young people today do? 634 00:43:54,855 --> 00:43:58,035 >> It's a different time. 635 00:43:58,035 --> 00:44:00,705 We didn't have cellphones. 636 00:44:00,705 --> 00:44:05,010 There are a number of things that they can do, 637 00:44:05,010 --> 00:44:06,780 and I think the women, 638 00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:10,110 I thought, had a start, but I don't know. 639 00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:11,610 It's fizzled out. 640 00:44:11,610 --> 00:44:14,410 It's hard to maintain a movement. 641 00:44:21,590 --> 00:44:23,610 And I think, 642 00:44:23,610 --> 00:44:25,575 now because after leaving, 643 00:44:25,575 --> 00:44:31,710 Spelman and I spent most of 644 00:44:31,710 --> 00:44:37,800 my time in Washington and Paris, 645 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,020 actually, in my professional career, 646 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:42,165 and in New York. 647 00:44:42,165 --> 00:44:45,880 But 648 00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:53,130 I don't know 649 00:44:53,130 --> 00:44:55,930 what to tell them to do. 650 00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:08,980 Do you remember, what was it, 651 00:45:09,620 --> 00:45:16,960 during the the Asian? 652 00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:24,790 What was it? In the Middle East, 653 00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:30,315 there was a period when 654 00:45:30,315 --> 00:45:37,240 all countries in the Middle East were reassessing 655 00:45:37,730 --> 00:45:42,860 their status and we're trying to have 656 00:45:42,860 --> 00:45:46,300 a much greater democracy 657 00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:51,245 and a voice in their own governments. 658 00:45:51,245 --> 00:45:52,775 God I forget that. 659 00:45:52,775 --> 00:45:53,915 >> Was it the Arab Spring? 660 00:45:53,915 --> 00:45:54,290 >> Yes. 661 00:45:54,290 --> 00:45:55,890 Arab Spring. 662 00:46:03,590 --> 00:46:04,950 And it 663 00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:07,290 didn't work because culture is important. 664 00:46:07,290 --> 00:46:09,210 I don't want to talk about culture in the way 665 00:46:09,210 --> 00:46:11,745 that of course Trump does. 666 00:46:11,745 --> 00:46:13,710 But culture is important and 667 00:46:13,710 --> 00:46:17,260 those societies are fundamentally different. 668 00:46:19,010 --> 00:46:22,590 But I just said that to just say 669 00:46:22,590 --> 00:46:25,890 that the culture of the environment in 670 00:46:25,890 --> 00:46:28,350 which you work has to be 671 00:46:28,350 --> 00:46:30,900 taken into account when you're deciding on 672 00:46:30,900 --> 00:46:33,310 a way to counteract 673 00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:37,600 something you dislike in your own society. 674 00:46:44,090 --> 00:46:46,365 I have a question for you. 675 00:46:46,365 --> 00:46:49,750 What are you planning to do with all of this? 676 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,060 >> This project has four parts to it. 677 00:46:54,060 --> 00:46:56,370 So the first part is we 678 00:46:56,370 --> 00:46:59,190 are sitting down with 679 00:46:59,190 --> 00:47:01,470 veterans of the Atlanta Student Movement, 680 00:47:01,470 --> 00:47:03,975 and asking these questions. 681 00:47:03,975 --> 00:47:06,450 So we're getting some history of the movement and 682 00:47:06,450 --> 00:47:09,570 then some advice from our elders. 683 00:47:09,570 --> 00:47:13,590 And the interviews will 684 00:47:13,590 --> 00:47:15,840 be placed into a publicly accessible, 685 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,125 publicly usable archive at KSU, 686 00:47:19,125 --> 00:47:21,780 along with all the associated documents 687 00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:23,025 that are digitized. 688 00:47:23,025 --> 00:47:26,940 And then we're going to write history lessons 689 00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:28,830 that are targeted at students from 690 00:47:28,830 --> 00:47:31,305 kindergarten all the way through high school, 691 00:47:31,305 --> 00:47:33,240 and we're going to 692 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:37,230 push those history lessons that are free, 693 00:47:37,230 --> 00:47:40,650 that are aligned standards that are usable by 694 00:47:40,650 --> 00:47:42,510 history teachers to try to reach 695 00:47:42,510 --> 00:47:45,360 our children learn about the country. 696 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,155 That's the first part 697 00:47:48,155 --> 00:47:49,520 of all of this, and then of course, 698 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,970 we're also doing a documentary that we can push to 699 00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:57,660 the masses, to general public. 700 00:48:00,310 --> 00:48:04,795 >> Again, using film? 701 00:48:04,795 --> 00:48:08,430 >> Some are actual footage and pieces and our talks with 702 00:48:08,430 --> 00:48:13,660 you folks who are there. 703 00:48:13,970 --> 00:48:16,245 >> We're going to go back through 704 00:48:16,245 --> 00:48:18,270 the transcripts that will be produced 705 00:48:18,270 --> 00:48:22,050 from these interviews to pick out the stories, 706 00:48:22,050 --> 00:48:24,450 to piece everything together to tell 707 00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:26,445 a cohesive story amongst 708 00:48:26,445 --> 00:48:29,410 all of the people that are participating. 709 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,430 >> So our hope is to 710 00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:37,650 be able to reach everyone where they are. 711 00:48:37,650 --> 00:48:41,295 So the students in the digital spaces that they learn. 712 00:48:41,295 --> 00:48:44,100 And for me as a teacher, 713 00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:47,355 that part is really important because like you, 714 00:48:47,355 --> 00:48:48,930 I believe that some of 715 00:48:48,930 --> 00:48:51,180 the folks who are out there now are. 716 00:48:51,180 --> 00:48:56,520 I know Dr. Moss didn't want me to say this. 717 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,140 It was I believe some of those folks are 718 00:48:58,140 --> 00:49:00,660 irredeemable and the only way to truly effect 719 00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:02,490 some change is with 720 00:49:02,490 --> 00:49:08,130 children whose minds are still somewhat open. 721 00:49:08,130 --> 00:49:12,630 So that to me is where my heart is 722 00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:14,490 here and also with 723 00:49:14,490 --> 00:49:17,830 the documentary to make sure that everyone sees it. 724 00:49:17,870 --> 00:49:25,950 And that's important to hear the words of 725 00:49:25,950 --> 00:49:27,840 human and civil rights from 726 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,270 the veterans who were there and to be 727 00:49:30,270 --> 00:49:35,955 able to see the documents as well. 728 00:49:35,955 --> 00:49:41,580 And we would love to hear your thoughts on 729 00:49:41,580 --> 00:49:44,010 that and where you 730 00:49:44,010 --> 00:49:47,590 think those things could be most impactful? 731 00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:53,880 >> Well, I'd like to give it some thought. 732 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,980 >> I would love to sit down and have 733 00:49:55,980 --> 00:49:58,410 coffee or lunch and talk about what 734 00:49:58,410 --> 00:49:59,970 you think would really 735 00:49:59,970 --> 00:50:04,830 benefit the project in terms of how we can 736 00:50:04,830 --> 00:50:08,145 ensure that those goals 737 00:50:08,145 --> 00:50:12,090 of something that's publicly accessible, 738 00:50:12,090 --> 00:50:15,090 but also that's publicly usable because a lot of 739 00:50:15,090 --> 00:50:16,470 things that live in archives 740 00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:18,210 can say they're publicly accessible, 741 00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:20,970 but unless they're promoted and 742 00:50:20,970 --> 00:50:26,355 pushed to audiences, they just sit there. 743 00:50:26,355 --> 00:50:28,680 >> No. That's true. 744 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:38,280 And I think we get so many messages thrown at us. 745 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,445 I don't know. Right now, 746 00:50:41,445 --> 00:50:45,190 I can't think of the best way to attract one's attention. 747 00:50:49,820 --> 00:50:52,305 It's quite a challenge. 748 00:50:52,305 --> 00:50:53,910 But I certainly salute you 749 00:50:53,910 --> 00:50:57,315 and wish you all success in what you're doing. 750 00:50:57,315 --> 00:50:58,200 >> We'll need your help. 751 00:50:58,200 --> 00:50:59,160 >> Thank you so much. 752 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:00,855 >> Thank you. We'll need your help. 753 00:51:00,855 --> 00:51:02,400 Like I said, I will be coming back to 754 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,200 the well of your knowledge again and 755 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:09,945 again to ask for help. You're in Atlanta? 756 00:51:09,945 --> 00:51:11,130 >> Yes. 757 00:51:11,130 --> 00:51:11,655 >> Good. 758 00:51:11,655 --> 00:51:13,030 >> Yes.