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>> This is James Newberry
and I'm here with

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Joseph Meeks on
August 3rd, 2017.

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Joseph Meeks, founding Dean of

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the College of Arts and
Professor of Music.

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We're here at the
Sturgis Library

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at Kennesaw State University.

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So thank you so much for
sitting down with me

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and we'll just go ahead and
get started at the beginning.

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What's your full name?

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>> My full name is
Joseph Donald Meeks.

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>> And what's your birthday?

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>> January 26th, 1940.

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>> So can you tell me
where you grew up?

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>> I grew up in a small town in

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South Carolina, Belton,
South Carolina.

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I was born in

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the Anderson Memorial Hospital

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in Anderson, South Carolina.

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It's no longer that name.

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They've changed it, of course,

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as everything has changed.
But that's where I grew up.

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>> And what were
your parents' names?

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>> My mother's name was
Sarah Verena Stowe.

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And in those days,

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anybody named Sarah was
called Sally just about.

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And so no one ever in

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my lifetime ever called her
Sarah. They called her Sally.

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My father only had one
name, Floyd Meeks.

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All of his siblings had
two names, middle names.

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But I guess by the
time they got to

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him, he was the youngest.

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So after eight children,
they just gave him one.

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>> They run out of names.

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>> They run out of names, yes.

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>> What did your parents
do for a living?

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>> My mother didn't work.

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She was a homemaker.

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She stayed home and ran
quite a tight household.

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And my father came from

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the farm outside of

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Belton in a little town
called Honea Path.

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And in those days
when he was young,

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they called it something else.

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But he lived on a farm with
his other seven siblings

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and his parents and worked in

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the fields just like
people did at that time.

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It was a very agrarian society

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back in the early 20th century.

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My father was born in 1901

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and my mother was born in 1906.

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One day he came to town,

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which wasn't very big,

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but it was called town,
and he was entrepreneurial

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and he started his
own businesses

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and in my lifetime had several.

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And his siblings were the same.

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They all left the
farm and came to

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town and opened restaurants

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and used car places
and finance companies,

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floral shops, service stations.

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So it was very interesting.

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I think it was
easier then if you

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wanted to do something beyond

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the farm or beyond whatever.

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That the opportunity was there,

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that you could just
almost immediately

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open a business, and he did.

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So he was a real model for that.

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And my mother was a model

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for the work that a
woman does in the home

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in keeping the
family together and

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planning meals and
all of those things.

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They were a great team.

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>> And you had siblings?

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>> I have two siblings
still living.

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My parents had five children.

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Two died in early years.

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My sister died when
she was five and

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my brother died at 10 weeks old,

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which is not unusual in
those days for children

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to die because medical science

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was not what it has become.

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So that if a child became ill,

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sometimes they
didn't know how to

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diagnose it and that was what
happened with my sister.

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They were never sure
what killed her.

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So I have two brothers.

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We were spaced rather distantly.

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When I was starting to school,

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my older brother was
finishing high school.

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So we had 12 years
difference in our ages.

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And then my parents

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had another child
four-and-a-half years,

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so my younger brother.

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I have an older brother and
younger. I'm a middle child.

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I'm not sure I have the
middle child syndrome.

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Some would say that I do.

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>> I see. So tell me a little
bit about your early life.

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>> Of course, it was a
small-time town life.

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My father was working all the

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time and I think that's
what happens with people

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who go out into the world to

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start businesses and to make
a living for their families.

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So he left early in the morning

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and he returned in the evening.

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And, of course, my mother

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didn't have the conveniences
that you have today.

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So doing anything
like laundry and

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cooking and all of that was
much more labor intensive.

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So all of that was
always going on.

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But it was a time when
in the neighborhood,

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you had other children and

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no one worried about whether

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you were going to
be safe or not,

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you just wandered off into

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the neighborhoods
and down the streets

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and nobody came looking for
you or worrying about you.

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So it was a good time.

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Games that you played
were done with songs.

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You played hopscotch and
all those kinds of things.

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So it was a simple
life, very simple.

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Very family-oriented.

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We saw aunts and uncles
and grandparents.

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My grandparents lived on a farm.

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So we would go there
and spend a few days.

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We'd go when they were
canning and when they

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were killing a hog and
all those kinds of

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things and eat good
food while all of

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that was going on with
no air conditioning.

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So it was a good life.

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I had very caring parents
and I'm very indebted

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to how they dreamed for
us and supported us.

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They did not try to
carve out anything.

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They didn't try to make us

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be anything that they
wanted us to be.

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They just were great models
of what the core values were,

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respect and responsibility,
accountability.

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So I was blessed to have
parents who were so caring.

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So we were nurtured maybe a
little too much sometimes

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because they maybe I

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would think maybe held
us really close .

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So it was good.

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>> Can you describe your home?

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>> Yeah. My parents when
they were first married,

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they moved into a
little rental house.

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And then with my father

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suddenly taking off with

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the entrepreneurial
aspect of his life,

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they bought a little house on

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Poplar Avenue with a little
gingerbread stuff and

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was that lilacs growing
across the porch,

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there was no garage,

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just a trellis that went out

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that they'd pull
the old car under,

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and then you'd walk
up on the porch.

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It had a fish pond
with goldfish in.

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So we had wonderful neighbors.

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We lived there until
I was six years old.

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And then we moved to our
house that was built in

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1937 that my father
loved this house.

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The floor plan came out of

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a magazine and someone
else built it,

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but he liked  it and he

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approached the woman and
asked if he could buy it.

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And so he redid the house

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and so we moved to
Anderson Street

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and my mother lived
there until she went to

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a retirement home three
years before her death.

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The house is still there and I

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have just returned from
South Carolina and I was

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happy to find out that
they've been doing

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some restoring and a family

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has moved in to enjoy the house.

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So it was a wonderful house.

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I only walked down
the street to,

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we called it grammar school.

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People referred to it as
elementary school now.

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So I could walk
out my front door,

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a half block, and
there was my  school.

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It's now City Hall.

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And so that was wonderful.

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And then walk back home.

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When I was in the sixth grade,

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I was a schoolboy patrol

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and then I was asked to

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be chief patrol for a while,
which was interesting.

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And so we wore the little hats

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and whatever and you had to put

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the signs out on the road.

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We didn't have
that much traffic,

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but we did all those helping
people across the street.

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But I lived in that house
till I went to college

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and my mother lived there until

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she could no longer
be in the house.

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When I say Anderson Street,

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it was the street that became

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Anderson Highway that then
led to the town of Anderson,

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South Carolina,
where I was born.

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And the doctor lived
across the street.

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If we got sick, my father says,

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just go over and see Dr. Martin,

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he'll give you something.

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[LAUGHTER]

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So you just go
across the street.

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And Dr. Martin had

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an office in the lower
level of his house.

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He'd fix you up
with castor oil and

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orange juice, and you go home.

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[LAUGHTER]

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That's the way it
was done those days.

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>> Well, tell me how you first
got interested in music.

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>> Well, my parents had a piano

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that was sitting in
the living room,

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and my older brother,

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I mentioned, who
was 12 years older,

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my father arranged
piano lessons for him.

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And he was very sports minded.

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And for three years,

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he took piano lessons
from a Juilliard teacher,

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but didn't have any
interest in it.

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After a while, the lesson
stopped, after three years.

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And so the piano
was sitting there,

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and sometimes friends of

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my parents would come by
and they would visit,

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and I remember one lady,

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she would always
get on the piano

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and she'd play and play
and play and play.

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And so then I would go to
the piano and I do whatever,

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but I just could not
do what she could do.

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But again, I go
back to my father.

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He wanted me to
have piano lessons.

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And I remember the discussion.

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They would say, should
we or shouldn't we.

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It didn't and it
didn't take the first.

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[LAUGHTER] So will it
work with for Joe?

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And I wanted to do it because
I was asking to do it.

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So they held off a little bit.

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But then my father went out
and arranged my lessons

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and he wanted it to be the best.

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And so the teacher with whom
I studied for several years,

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did not have an
opening at the time,

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but she recommended a young
teacher who had come to town,

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someone who graduated from
the same school she had.

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And so I started my
lessons with her,

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but my father still wanted me to

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be with the teacher that
couldn't take me at beginning.

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The whole town lovingly
called her Ms. Floride.

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And that was typical of
the time period to call

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people Ms. or Mr. And
their first name.

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So everybody in town
knew Ms. Floride and

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she had gone to Juilliard and

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she had come back
to that married,

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come back to the little town,
and started teaching piano.

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So he went to her
again and said,

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I'd like for you to take
Joe and teach him lessons.

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So she said, well, tell
Joe to come by here

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and see me tonight after
I finished teaching.

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So here I am, little boy.

259
00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:45,995
So that night my mother took me,

260
00:12:45,995 --> 00:12:49,970
and we stood in her music room
and she was towering above

261
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:51,620
me with this great big smile on

262
00:12:51,620 --> 00:12:54,245
her face and she was
asking me questions.

263
00:12:54,245 --> 00:12:58,415
And she said, yes,

264
00:12:58,415 --> 00:13:00,095
I will take you.

265
00:13:00,095 --> 00:13:02,000
And she later would say,

266
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,560
you look so much like Chopin

267
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:04,820
I just couldn't turn you away.

268
00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:08,210
[LAUGHTER] She kept a picture

269
00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:11,480
by her bed all those years
and she would show it to me,

270
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,490
and she said, look, you
look just like Chopin.

271
00:13:13,490 --> 00:13:16,535
But anyway, I started
studying with her

272
00:13:16,535 --> 00:13:20,240
and my goodness, what a change.

273
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,050
She was all involved.

274
00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:26,885
She lived and breathed music.

275
00:13:26,885 --> 00:13:33,800
And her students and making
sure that they advanced.

276
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:39,245
So I started having
one lesson a week,

277
00:13:39,245 --> 00:13:43,640
and her music room had
two pianos upright piano,

278
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,350
and then this grand

279
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:47,990
piano that had a
canvas cover over it,

280
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:50,195
she kept to protect it.

281
00:13:50,195 --> 00:13:52,700
So I would go for the lessons,

282
00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:58,835
and I was practicing
quite a bit,

283
00:13:58,835 --> 00:14:01,730
and she was pleased about that.

284
00:14:01,730 --> 00:14:03,950
It always pleased her
when she had a student

285
00:14:03,950 --> 00:14:06,365
that would do just
what she said,

286
00:14:06,365 --> 00:14:08,660
and I happened to be
one of those students.

287
00:14:08,660 --> 00:14:12,320
So then it was,

288
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,155
come back tomorrow
for another lesson.

289
00:14:15,155 --> 00:14:18,335
Come back this afternoon
for another lesson.

290
00:14:18,335 --> 00:14:20,210
So I started sometimes having

291
00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:23,600
lessons every day, twice a day.

292
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,930
She was that dedicated to it.

293
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,690
But then when I
advanced a little more,

294
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:31,415
when I would go
in for my lesson,

295
00:14:31,415 --> 00:14:33,650
and she would be teaching
on the upright piano,

296
00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:34,850
when that student would leave,

297
00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:36,815
she would walk over
to the grand piano,

298
00:14:36,815 --> 00:14:41,270
take the canvas
off, lift the lid,

299
00:14:41,270 --> 00:14:43,490
the fall board, and she said,

300
00:14:43,490 --> 00:14:45,320
you're going to have your
lesson on this piano today,

301
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,755
which was Steinway.

302
00:14:48,755 --> 00:14:51,860
That was how I was
introduced to Steinway,

303
00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:54,440
because I read it
on the fall board.

304
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,460
Steinway Sons and Company,

305
00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:00,990
whatever the title
was at the time.

306
00:15:02,530 --> 00:15:05,630
So I just kept advancing,

307
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:08,120
she started entering
me in competitions.

308
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,890
And then she started planting

309
00:15:09,890 --> 00:15:16,670
the possibility of my
majoring in music,

310
00:15:16,670 --> 00:15:20,840
and trying to get me
to be more serious and

311
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,040
she was more serious

312
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,085
and she just got me
totally involved.

313
00:15:25,085 --> 00:15:26,765
Very much like,

314
00:15:26,765 --> 00:15:29,105
if you saw the movie,
Madam Suzoski.

315
00:15:29,105 --> 00:15:32,120
She just absolutely consumes

316
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,215
you and planned your
life, planned everything.

317
00:15:36,215 --> 00:15:38,000
It would go and she'd go to

318
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,820
the bookcase and she would
pull a book off and she said,

319
00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:43,220
let's look that up
and we read about it.

320
00:15:43,220 --> 00:15:45,080
And then she had

321
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,135
a big Chrysler and then
when I could drive,

322
00:15:47,135 --> 00:15:48,980
she'd make me drive the car,

323
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:51,590
and here she'd sit on the
side and off we'd go.

324
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:55,445
So it was a wonderful time.

325
00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:57,200
I'm not so sure that we

326
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,560
even have that kind of
thing much anymore.

327
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:06,440
But she was totally
dedicated to the profession.

328
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,120
She graduated from Converse

329
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,980
College School of
Music in Spartanburg,

330
00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:11,870
South Carolina, and then she

331
00:16:11,870 --> 00:16:14,850
had gone to New York
to study at Juilliard.

332
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,030
And so she made the
arts and she made

333
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:24,425
music such an
exciting possibility.

334
00:16:24,425 --> 00:16:27,830
The picture and the
stories that she gave

335
00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:32,570
you made you want to do this
and want to be in that.

336
00:16:32,570 --> 00:16:36,350
So when we were getting close to

337
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:40,055
my graduation from high
school, I skipped a grade.

338
00:16:40,055 --> 00:16:43,745
I went from the tenth grade
to the 12th grade, again,

339
00:16:43,745 --> 00:16:46,310
she was saying, you need
to go on to college,

340
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:48,365
you don't need to stay here.

341
00:16:48,365 --> 00:16:53,945
So we skipped and I
graduated a year earlier.

342
00:16:53,945 --> 00:16:55,655
In the meantime, I was doing

343
00:16:55,655 --> 00:16:58,805
auditions to wherever
I would go to school.

344
00:16:58,805 --> 00:17:01,325
We had kind had it down to

345
00:17:01,325 --> 00:17:04,430
Furman University in
Greenville, South Carolina,

346
00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:06,815
Florida State University,

347
00:17:06,815 --> 00:17:12,770
and Converse College School
of Music where she had gone.

348
00:17:12,770 --> 00:17:15,740
So in auditioning, when I went

349
00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:19,170
to Converse and auditioned,

350
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:22,490
It was quite a process
in those days.

351
00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:28,655
You applied, and the
year that I went,

352
00:17:28,655 --> 00:17:32,000
they had 125 applicants
for the school of music.

353
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,300
Then they looked at everything

354
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,285
that you had and your abilities,

355
00:17:38,285 --> 00:17:40,760
and they narrowed it down to 32.

356
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,850
And they invited 32 students

357
00:17:43,850 --> 00:17:47,150
to come in audition and it
went over a two day period.

358
00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:49,730
But not only did you
just play for them,

359
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:52,430
you had to take a
theory test and

360
00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:56,165
an ear training test and
all these different things.

361
00:17:56,165 --> 00:17:58,820
Then it came down.

362
00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:02,360
They chose six finalists.

363
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:07,280
Well, I still felt so
unprepared for all of this.

364
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,105
It just was beyond me.

365
00:18:10,105 --> 00:18:14,855
So I told my mother after
I had played that day,

366
00:18:14,855 --> 00:18:16,340
I said, why don't
we just go home?

367
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:18,560
There's no point in
staying here with all

368
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:19,730
of these people who played and I

369
00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:20,930
heard some of them
and they're good.

370
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:23,330
I just know we're going
to stay to the end,

371
00:18:23,330 --> 00:18:24,905
until the afternoon and see.

372
00:18:24,905 --> 00:18:28,675
So when they named
the six finalist,

373
00:18:28,675 --> 00:18:31,075
they named me as one
of the six finalists.

374
00:18:31,075 --> 00:18:33,370
So I said, oh,

375
00:18:33,370 --> 00:18:36,110
my goodness, we've got to stay.

376
00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:43,400
The faculty had judged
up until that moment,

377
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,440
School of Music faculty.

378
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,200
But they invited Dr. Earl Moore,

379
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,000
who was the Dean of
the School of Music at

380
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,470
the University of Michigan to

381
00:18:51,470 --> 00:18:54,380
fly in to judge the finalist.

382
00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:58,265
So we just finished
this all day thing.

383
00:18:58,265 --> 00:19:00,710
We had to be ready for
an eight o'clock concert

384
00:19:00,710 --> 00:19:02,945
where all six of
us would perform.

385
00:19:02,945 --> 00:19:08,440
And he would choose the ones
to receive the scholarships.

386
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,510
So there I was in

387
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:15,350
the green room waiting to
go out and compete again.

388
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:19,810
I did and it was successful
and I was awarded

389
00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:22,210
the Walter Spray
Memorial Scholarship for

390
00:19:22,210 --> 00:19:25,730
four years to Converse.

391
00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:29,890
Dr. Spra had been the dean
of the School of Music for

392
00:19:29,890 --> 00:19:34,505
many years earlier on
in the 20th century.

393
00:19:34,505 --> 00:19:37,280
They had established an
endowed scholarship in

394
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,560
his name and I received
that scholarship.

395
00:19:40,910 --> 00:19:43,600
So I was excited about that,

396
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:49,320
but there was only one little
piece that was complicated.

397
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,420
Converse had historically been

398
00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:55,900
a school for female students.

399
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,200
Over the years because
they excelled in music,

400
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,320
they created a separate school.

401
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,800
It was a School of Music.

402
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,160
It was the academic school
and then the School of Music.

403
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:13,485
And it was core ed, kind of.

404
00:20:13,485 --> 00:20:17,835
They had a few male students.

405
00:20:17,835 --> 00:20:21,680
The situation was that you had

406
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,130
to enroll at Walford
College as well.

407
00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:29,660
Walford is very close to
Converse in the same town,

408
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:32,710
Spartanburg, live in the dorm,

409
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:34,690
take your academic work,
and you then had to

410
00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:37,050
go over to Converse to
do all of your music,

411
00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:41,245
which was very intensive.

412
00:20:41,245 --> 00:20:44,380
And you've got to go back to

413
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,770
1957 and know what
the world was like.

414
00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:53,680
In 1957, having males on

415
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,090
a female campus was you were
constantly being watched.

416
00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:01,060
If you made one
wrong little move,

417
00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:02,215
it was just going to,

418
00:21:02,215 --> 00:21:04,450
you know, for example,

419
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:06,070
if you went into
the dining hall,

420
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:08,590
you were not allowed to
sit with female students.

421
00:21:08,590 --> 00:21:09,940
If you just suddenly wanted to

422
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:11,770
go and sit with a
student, you couldn't.

423
00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:15,865
You had to sit at a table
that was the all boys table.

424
00:21:15,865 --> 00:21:20,220
And at night in the
music building,

425
00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:23,730
even though it was three stories
tall and you had pianos,

426
00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:26,430
practice pianos on all
floors and you could go.

427
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:28,710
A male was not
allowed to go beyond

428
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:32,080
the first floor in the
evening after 6:00.

429
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:35,770
So my teacher taught me

430
00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:38,950
his lessons in an old house

431
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:41,110
that was adjacent to the campus.

432
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:44,710
So he started
letting me practice

433
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:46,360
in his studio at
night so that it

434
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,385
was away from the
music building.

435
00:21:48,385 --> 00:21:52,285
And of course, here I am
again with Steinway pianos.

436
00:21:52,285 --> 00:21:54,475
Steinway piano is everywhere.

437
00:21:54,475 --> 00:22:01,940
So I'm seeing that name
again and it's importance.

438
00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:06,310
So after that, I said,

439
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:08,635
well, I won't go to Furman I
won't go to Florida State.

440
00:22:08,635 --> 00:22:10,165
This sounds so good. I'll come.

441
00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:11,785
Even though in my mind,

442
00:22:11,785 --> 00:22:15,700
this is going to be a
little bit different.

443
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:19,075
One thing that was
driving all of this,

444
00:22:19,075 --> 00:22:22,150
my teacher, miss
Floride had said,

445
00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:24,835
you cannot go to a
school that's not

446
00:22:24,835 --> 00:22:26,230
accredited by the National

447
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:28,960
Association of Schools of Music.

448
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,655
You cannot go where there's
not an Altinway school,

449
00:22:33,655 --> 00:22:36,220
and she had all of these rules,

450
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:38,305
and at that time,

451
00:22:38,305 --> 00:22:42,595
not many schools were
nationally accredited.

452
00:22:42,595 --> 00:22:44,860
Converse was a charter school.

453
00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:51,010
They were received
accreditation for in 1925.

454
00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:54,790
So there were so
many things that

455
00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:56,680
led to that and the fact

456
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,065
that she had gone
there. So I did.

457
00:22:59,065 --> 00:23:04,270
So I lived in the Dorm at
Walford rode a bicycle,

458
00:23:04,270 --> 00:23:08,180
converse, back and forth.
It was about to kill me.

459
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,750
Finally, my father
called me up on

460
00:23:10,750 --> 00:23:13,255
a Saturday and said,
I've bought your car.

461
00:23:13,255 --> 00:23:15,010
So come home this weekend.

462
00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:16,480
So I went home and I had an old

463
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,510
1947 Chevrolet that now I could

464
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:21,790
drive from one campus to
the other to save me time

465
00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:24,610
because I was practicing
my freshman year,

466
00:23:24,610 --> 00:23:26,800
this is going to
sound unrealistic,

467
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,900
seven hours a day.

468
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:33,700
I finally had to drop back from

469
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,970
seven and was glad
to get in five.

470
00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:40,330
But then once you finish
practicing that many hours,

471
00:23:40,330 --> 00:23:43,540
you still had to write
that English essay,

472
00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:46,015
that composition
that was assigned,

473
00:23:46,015 --> 00:23:48,835
history exam tomorrow
because you had to take

474
00:23:48,835 --> 00:23:53,155
all the core courses as well
as all the music courses.

475
00:23:53,155 --> 00:23:58,240
So I tried it for the first year

476
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,270
and I was really

477
00:24:01,270 --> 00:24:03,040
concerned at the
end of that year

478
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,530
that was this the
right place for me.

479
00:24:05,530 --> 00:24:08,140
So I went back for
my sophomore year,

480
00:24:08,140 --> 00:24:09,715
in my sophomore year,

481
00:24:09,715 --> 00:24:11,575
I mentioned to my
master teacher,

482
00:24:11,575 --> 00:24:15,160
Edwin Gorshevski that was
another reason I went to go

483
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,500
universe because Edwin Goshevski

484
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,660
was a well known composer,

485
00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:22,720
pianist and was very

486
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,040
prominent and he didn't accept
more than five students.

487
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,500
So from those auditions,

488
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:33,235
he selected me to
study with him.

489
00:24:33,235 --> 00:24:35,740
So here we were five of

490
00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:37,975
us that studied with
Edward Gorshevski.

491
00:24:37,975 --> 00:24:41,470
He was born in
1909, died in 1992,

492
00:24:41,470 --> 00:24:43,570
and was the Dean of
the School of Music

493
00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:48,740
from 1945 until 1959.

494
00:24:49,650 --> 00:24:52,000
The model here was he

495
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,220
was the Dean of the
School of Music,

496
00:24:54,220 --> 00:24:58,210
teaching five music majors,

497
00:24:58,210 --> 00:25:04,165
piano performance majors,
and performing regularly.

498
00:25:04,165 --> 00:25:06,940
So here I'm setting
up another model of

499
00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:10,255
what is very attractive.

500
00:25:10,255 --> 00:25:12,820
Because my teacher
all these years

501
00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:14,335
in high school is saying,

502
00:25:14,335 --> 00:25:16,210
you're going to have
a performing career,

503
00:25:16,210 --> 00:25:20,630
concert pianist and push
push push for that.

504
00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:25,990
But I felt that the
environment was unhealthy for

505
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:28,330
a young man in a
situation where you

506
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:31,510
didn't have the freedom to
come and go as you please.

507
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:33,565
And it was just, you know,

508
00:25:33,565 --> 00:25:35,200
if you went into

509
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,810
the dining hall and you
just happened to say,

510
00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:39,040
well, I'm going to
break the rule.

511
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,200
I'm going to sit over
here with these girls.

512
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,480
The dean of women would
sit at her table in

513
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,640
the evening because everybody
ate it at the same time

514
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,970
and just stare at
you the entire time

515
00:25:48,970 --> 00:25:51,070
giving you that
look that you know

516
00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:53,425
and then you would be
they discuss it with you.

517
00:25:53,425 --> 00:25:55,555
You had to wear a coat
and tie to dinner.

518
00:25:55,555 --> 00:25:58,180
You couldn't go in
just in a shirt.

519
00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:00,010
It's a different time.

520
00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:02,770
And so I started

521
00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:05,305
discussing with Edward
Gorshevski my teacher,

522
00:26:05,305 --> 00:26:07,765
you know, I really think
maybe I should transfer.

523
00:26:07,765 --> 00:26:09,460
You know, I think maybe this

524
00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:12,400
is not the best
place for me to be.

525
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,025
He didn't say, don't do it,

526
00:26:15,025 --> 00:26:17,920
but he gave me
reasons not to while,

527
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,240
you know, different reasons.

528
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,850
And he said, you know,

529
00:26:21,850 --> 00:26:23,695
we'll keep talking about
and thinking about it.

530
00:26:23,695 --> 00:26:24,760
Well, lo and behold,

531
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,605
at the end of my sophomore year,

532
00:26:26,605 --> 00:26:28,540
he announced that
he had accepted

533
00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:30,490
the dean's position
for the School of

534
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:33,650
music at the University
of New Mexico.

535
00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:38,620
And this is kind of
what youth we do.

536
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:41,440
We make decisions just
impromp to, you know,

537
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,310
we don't do the background
check. We don't do anything.

538
00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:46,480
We just move, do

539
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,120
whatever we're kind of
impulsive, you know.

540
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,355
So I went home, discussed
with my parents.

541
00:26:51,355 --> 00:26:52,540
They said, absolutely not.

542
00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:53,380
My father said, No,

543
00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:54,460
you're going to stay
right where you are.

544
00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:57,400
You're not going anywhere.
And I kept some,

545
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:58,720
but this is what I want to do.

546
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,400
This is what I need to
do because I want to

547
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,635
stay with my teacher
and I want to

548
00:27:02,635 --> 00:27:05,320
because I don't think the
other teachers are quite as

549
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,320
good, we're not going to do it.

550
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,810
So a girl who was

551
00:27:10,810 --> 00:27:13,960
studying with him and
she was a freshman,

552
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,790
she decided she was going to

553
00:27:15,790 --> 00:27:18,745
New Mexico to study
with Gorshevski.

554
00:27:18,745 --> 00:27:23,185
So I finally convinced my
father that I should go.

555
00:27:23,185 --> 00:27:25,360
So then he was on board.

556
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,720
So in September of 1959,

557
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:37,285
I headed out to New
Mexico and Albuquerque.

558
00:27:37,285 --> 00:27:39,325
We drove across the country.

559
00:27:39,325 --> 00:27:40,630
She and her mother and

560
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:41,740
her piano teacher drove

561
00:27:41,740 --> 00:27:43,525
down to the little
town of Belton,

562
00:27:43,525 --> 00:27:45,820
picked me up and we drove

563
00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:48,355
across took us two days
to get to Albuquerque,

564
00:27:48,355 --> 00:27:50,470
moved into the dorm.

565
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:53,740
It was as if I had
landed on the moon.

566
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:55,945
First of all, I'm out west.

567
00:27:55,945 --> 00:27:57,355
There are no trees.

568
00:27:57,355 --> 00:28:02,450
It's dry sand and it's 1959.

569
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:06,760
I moved into the dorm

570
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,780
and knew almost instantly

571
00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:13,900
that this was not going
to be where I should be.

572
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:18,835
So I gave it a couple of weeks.

573
00:28:18,835 --> 00:28:21,160
And I was just miserable.

574
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,580
And then when I went to
the music department,

575
00:28:24,580 --> 00:28:25,930
I wasn't really happy.

576
00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:29,020
I felt it was a step down
from where we had been.

577
00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:30,880
Again, I understand my teacher

578
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,040
taking the position
because once you grow

579
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,930
up and you realize faculty and

580
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:37,090
people move from
position to position,

581
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:38,680
and they're building
their career.

582
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,360
And it probably felt as if it

583
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,410
could be a good
career move for him.

584
00:28:42,410 --> 00:28:45,435
It was not a good move for me.

585
00:28:45,435 --> 00:28:47,370
So I called my
father on the phone.

586
00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:49,605
Those days we only
had pay phones.

587
00:28:49,605 --> 00:28:51,345
You didn't have cell phones,

588
00:28:51,345 --> 00:28:55,955
and you paid a lot to make
a long-distance call.

589
00:28:55,955 --> 00:29:01,340
And my father was very much
tight when it came to money.

590
00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:04,600
You couldn't be
frivolous with money.

591
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,225
So I called and I
expressed that I was

592
00:29:07,225 --> 00:29:10,190
unhappy and I felt that
I should come home.

593
00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:12,390
And he talked for a few minutes,

594
00:29:12,390 --> 00:29:14,940
and he said, no, I
shouldn't come home.

595
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:18,915
And I said, but I
really think I should,

596
00:29:18,915 --> 00:29:23,170
and the phone went click.
He just hung up on me.

597
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,110
So I thought about it
for maybe 24 hours,

598
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:31,645
and I decided going home.

599
00:29:31,645 --> 00:29:35,200
So in those days you went to
college with a big trunk.

600
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,620
I shipped my trunk back to
Greenville South Carolina.

601
00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:41,455
I had enough money to buy
a Greyhound bus ticket.

602
00:29:41,455 --> 00:29:43,675
I didn't say goodbye to anybody.

603
00:29:43,675 --> 00:29:48,040
I got on the Greyhound bus
and I left on Thursday

604
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,330
at 5:30 and arrived in

605
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:53,510
Greenville South Carolina
on Saturday at 5:30.

606
00:29:54,090 --> 00:29:57,580
And I thought what have I done,

607
00:29:57,580 --> 00:30:01,780
but you just do it
impulsive again.

608
00:30:01,780 --> 00:30:04,960
I called my mother. She
said, where are you?

609
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,625
I said, I'm in Greenville
South Carolina.

610
00:30:06,625 --> 00:30:08,410
I said, you need to come get me.

611
00:30:08,410 --> 00:30:10,435
I just, Oh, my goodness.

612
00:30:10,435 --> 00:30:13,555
So I went up.

613
00:30:13,555 --> 00:30:15,160
She came up to pick me up.

614
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,810
We got in the car,
and we started home.

615
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:19,675
It's about 35 miles away.

616
00:30:19,675 --> 00:30:21,610
She said, what are
you going to do?

617
00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:24,575
And I said, well, I'll
go back to converse.

618
00:30:24,575 --> 00:30:26,985
She said, well, if
you change your mind,

619
00:30:26,985 --> 00:30:29,385
I won't tell your father
you're here tonight.

620
00:30:29,385 --> 00:30:31,125
So you just go to bed,

621
00:30:31,125 --> 00:30:32,835
and when you wake
up tomorrow morning

622
00:30:32,835 --> 00:30:34,335
if you still feel that way,

623
00:30:34,335 --> 00:30:36,865
then you'll stay but if not,

624
00:30:36,865 --> 00:30:39,940
I'll put you back on the
bus and sit you back.

625
00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:41,650
So the next morning I woke up.

626
00:30:41,650 --> 00:30:42,970
It was Sunday morning.

627
00:30:42,970 --> 00:30:44,965
My father had gone to church.

628
00:30:44,965 --> 00:30:47,590
I sat down in our den with

629
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:50,560
a chair with my
back to the door,

630
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,615
and it was his chair.

631
00:30:52,615 --> 00:30:54,310
I heard him come in from

632
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:57,535
church because I told my
mother I wasn't going to back.

633
00:30:57,535 --> 00:30:59,605
I came and walked down the hall.

634
00:30:59,605 --> 00:31:01,345
He walked into the den,

635
00:31:01,345 --> 00:31:03,430
walked up behind the chair.

636
00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:07,615
He took his hand, started
messing up my hair,

637
00:31:07,615 --> 00:31:10,580
doing this and laughing.

638
00:31:10,770 --> 00:31:13,405
I didn't get scolded.

639
00:31:13,405 --> 00:31:15,055
He said, what are
you going to do?

640
00:31:15,055 --> 00:31:17,470
I said, going back
to where I was.

641
00:31:17,470 --> 00:31:19,225
He said, what if
they don't take you?

642
00:31:19,225 --> 00:31:21,145
I said, I think they will.

643
00:31:21,145 --> 00:31:25,420
And so he never

644
00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:30,865
ever in his lifetime ever
referred to it again.

645
00:31:30,865 --> 00:31:34,900
I think he thought I
really learned a lesson.

646
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:39,460
I think it was a lesson
well learned about being

647
00:31:39,460 --> 00:31:41,590
impulsive and about making

648
00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:44,575
decisions without really
giving as much thought,

649
00:31:44,575 --> 00:31:47,080
which was 18 years old,

650
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,720
you're doing things that
you won't do later.

651
00:31:51,270 --> 00:31:54,775
So on Monday morning,

652
00:31:54,775 --> 00:31:58,480
I got in my car, and I
went back to Converse,

653
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,970
and they were just registering.

654
00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,715
So they said, okay,

655
00:32:03,715 --> 00:32:05,710
that was different too.

656
00:32:05,710 --> 00:32:08,590
And so when the registrar
was talking about

657
00:32:08,590 --> 00:32:11,215
what had happened
during registration,

658
00:32:11,215 --> 00:32:13,810
he talked about
all the challenges

659
00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:15,175
and the things that took place,

660
00:32:15,175 --> 00:32:18,010
and then he said, and
then we had Joe Meeks.

661
00:32:18,010 --> 00:32:22,165
The special case. But
it was wonderful.

662
00:32:22,165 --> 00:32:26,215
And there was a very good
teacher there, John Ericson,

663
00:32:26,215 --> 00:32:28,510
he had wanted me to
come study with him in

664
00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:31,330
the very beginning
and was a little

665
00:32:31,330 --> 00:32:36,520
bit hurt that I had not
chosen him as a teacher.

666
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,200
But we had gotten through

667
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,090
that and I studied
with him for one year,

668
00:32:40,090 --> 00:32:43,390
but I knew this still was
not where I should be.

669
00:32:43,390 --> 00:32:47,440
Lo and behold, I found out
that Gorshevski is leaving

670
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,630
the University in New
Mexico to come to

671
00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:50,980
the University of Georgia to be

672
00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:53,485
Dean of the School of Music
at the University of Georgia.

673
00:32:53,485 --> 00:32:56,470
I thought I need to get back to

674
00:32:56,470 --> 00:33:00,145
the teacher that I
feel is right for me.

675
00:33:00,145 --> 00:33:05,845
So I wrote him, and he
wrote me this form letter.

676
00:33:05,845 --> 00:33:07,915
If you're accepting the
university of your honor,

677
00:33:07,915 --> 00:33:10,030
I'll be happy to take
you as a student.

678
00:33:10,030 --> 00:33:12,875
Sincerely Edward Gorshevski,

679
00:33:12,875 --> 00:33:14,970
he always called himself Ger,

680
00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:16,965
and faculty called him Ger.

681
00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:19,035
Then he signed it Ger.

682
00:33:19,035 --> 00:33:21,450
And at the side and I
still have the letter,

683
00:33:21,450 --> 00:33:22,695
he wrote, hey,

684
00:33:22,695 --> 00:33:28,795
H-E-Y exclamation, which
relaxed the serious part

685
00:33:28,795 --> 00:33:31,270
and said, we're still friends.

686
00:33:31,270 --> 00:33:32,770
So I proceeded,

687
00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:35,545
and that's how I ended up at
the University of Georgia,

688
00:33:35,545 --> 00:33:40,660
finished my Bachelor of Music
degree on time in 1961,

689
00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:43,645
did not lose time,

690
00:33:43,645 --> 00:33:45,940
and immediately entered

691
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:48,130
their Master of Fine
Arts program and

692
00:33:48,130 --> 00:33:52,870
stayed there two more years
with Gorshevski as my teacher.

693
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:55,810
The student who went
with him to New Mexico,

694
00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:57,160
she came back to

695
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,010
the University of Georgia

696
00:34:00,010 --> 00:34:02,290
and then a couple
of other students

697
00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:04,420
from Converse who
studied with him there.

698
00:34:04,420 --> 00:34:06,700
But they were so far
along they did not

699
00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:08,935
transfer in University
of New Mexico,

700
00:34:08,935 --> 00:34:10,960
came to the University
of Georgia also.

701
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,570
So it was full circle.

702
00:34:13,570 --> 00:34:16,030
We all came back together.

703
00:34:16,030 --> 00:34:18,700
His secretary from Converse

704
00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:20,290
came to the University
of Georgia,

705
00:34:20,290 --> 00:34:22,150
the Celest from Converse,

706
00:34:22,150 --> 00:34:23,725
came to the University
of Georgia.

707
00:34:23,725 --> 00:34:25,450
Everybody came there,

708
00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:28,090
and it was the place to be.

709
00:34:28,090 --> 00:34:31,795
And so it was good for me

710
00:34:31,795 --> 00:34:34,765
because I was in the
right environment,

711
00:34:34,765 --> 00:34:40,480
and I don't regret
going to New Mexico.

712
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,585
I think that was a wonderful
learning experience.

713
00:34:43,585 --> 00:34:46,240
>> When you talk about
this relationship

714
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:48,040
with him and this special fit,

715
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,065
what was it about him?

716
00:34:50,065 --> 00:34:51,760
>> Well, there's another tie-in

717
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,305
that we haven't talked about.

718
00:34:53,305 --> 00:34:55,975
He graduated from
Yale University.

719
00:34:55,975 --> 00:34:58,330
And he also had a diploma from

720
00:34:58,330 --> 00:35:03,130
the Tobias Matthay
school in London.

721
00:35:03,130 --> 00:35:09,085
He had received outstanding
reviews for his concerts.

722
00:35:09,085 --> 00:35:11,800
When he was at Yale,

723
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,485
he studied with Bruce Simmons.

724
00:35:14,485 --> 00:35:18,760
Bruce Simmons was the Dean of
the School of Music at Yale

725
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,860
and a well-known conductor
and very well-known pianist.

726
00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:28,525
So all those years when I
was thinking of Gorshevski,

727
00:35:28,525 --> 00:35:31,375
I'm also thinking about
and all of his students.

728
00:35:31,375 --> 00:35:32,875
We're thinking about
Bruce Simmons.

729
00:35:32,875 --> 00:35:34,225
He studied with Bruce Simmons.

730
00:35:34,225 --> 00:35:40,615
He studied with Tobias
Matthay in London,

731
00:35:40,615 --> 00:35:43,960
and he studied with
Arthur Schnabel,

732
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,335
who was a great
Beethoven player.

733
00:35:47,335 --> 00:35:49,660
So we started to talk about

734
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:53,860
legacy and so it became
very important for

735
00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,350
those studying at that
time that our legacy

736
00:35:56,350 --> 00:35:58,840
went back to Brahms and

737
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:05,305
Beethoven of the 19th
century and 18th century.

738
00:36:05,305 --> 00:36:08,380
Because we felt we
were getting a legacy

739
00:36:08,380 --> 00:36:11,785
through all of these
teachers that we

740
00:36:11,785 --> 00:36:13,330
could just have all of

741
00:36:13,330 --> 00:36:21,820
this teaching methods and
performance requirements.

742
00:36:21,820 --> 00:36:23,860
So that's the reason all of

743
00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:28,465
this network thing
starts to evolve.

744
00:36:28,465 --> 00:36:31,555
Gorshevski was such a model.

745
00:36:31,555 --> 00:36:32,680
He was the Dean of School of

746
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,240
Music Converse and then he comes

747
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,910
to the University of
Georgia. He's performing.

748
00:36:36,910 --> 00:36:40,930
They have a faculty trio
of cellist and violinist,

749
00:36:40,930 --> 00:36:44,740
and piano, and seeing him
perform all the time.

750
00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:48,385
And he was just an
outstanding teacher.

751
00:36:48,385 --> 00:36:52,120
And again, when you had
a lesson each week,

752
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,055
you didn't have an hour lesson

753
00:36:54,055 --> 00:36:55,840
as they do today
because that's just

754
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,310
so restricted in the
way we do it now.

755
00:37:00,310 --> 00:37:03,700
Your lesson went for two
hours and three hours.

756
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:07,750
And then he had a seminar for

757
00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:09,475
just his five students

758
00:37:09,475 --> 00:37:12,245
every Monday afternoon
at three o'clock,

759
00:37:12,245 --> 00:37:14,790
and you never got
out before six.

760
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:17,430
And he would say,
don't plan anything,

761
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:19,740
we will leave when we finish.

762
00:37:19,740 --> 00:37:21,420
So we'd walk in
at three o'clock,

763
00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:24,880
and each of the five of
us would perform for

764
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,930
the class and have a lesson
in front of the class.

765
00:37:28,930 --> 00:37:31,570
So we had that, and
then we had him.

766
00:37:31,570 --> 00:37:35,320
Then he hired a wonderful
pianist as his assistant.

767
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,380
So, in addition to a
lesson with him each week,

768
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:40,420
you had a lesson with her.

769
00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:43,630
You studied the repertory

770
00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:46,900
with him and a different
repertory with her.

771
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,990
It was very intensive.

772
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:53,140
Nothing like that
happens much anymore.

773
00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:57,475
So then, when I finished
the master's degree,

774
00:37:57,475 --> 00:37:59,650
I went up to New Haven,

775
00:37:59,650 --> 00:38:02,140
Connecticut, to Yale to
study with Bruce Simmons.

776
00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:04,810
He was still alive
and still at Yale,

777
00:38:04,810 --> 00:38:09,020
and that was in 1963.

778
00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:12,930
And I went to my
teacher's teacher,

779
00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:14,610
which is, again, that
line all the way

780
00:38:14,610 --> 00:38:16,980
back to Beethoven and whatever.

781
00:38:16,980 --> 00:38:19,800
And that was also a
wonderful experience.

782
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,440
So I had lessons
with Bruce Simmons.

783
00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:32,175
So he was the Dean

784
00:38:32,175 --> 00:38:36,390
of the School of
Music until 1970,

785
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:41,050
'71, and I was there in
'63 to study with him.

786
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,100
It's always been important
for people who choose

787
00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:53,505
the performing career
to have the benefit

788
00:38:53,505 --> 00:38:55,815
of studying with major teachers

789
00:38:55,815 --> 00:38:58,530
who bring all kinds
of perspectives to

790
00:38:58,530 --> 00:39:00,510
interpretation of Beethoven or

791
00:39:00,510 --> 00:39:02,940
interpretation of Brahms or

792
00:39:02,940 --> 00:39:05,160
the technique to perform

793
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,120
certain pieces,
Rachmaninov or whatever.

794
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,500
So it was a good time.

795
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,280
>> What were your
goals at this point?

796
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,505
>> I had shifted in my thinking.

797
00:39:20,505 --> 00:39:23,085
Having performed a lot,

798
00:39:23,085 --> 00:39:26,520
I began to realize how
lonely that world is.

799
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,425
When you go back to think

800
00:39:28,425 --> 00:39:31,050
practicing five and
six and seven hours a

801
00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:36,030
day and if you went
out to play a concert,

802
00:39:36,030 --> 00:39:37,200
you're in a hotel or

803
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,745
motel and you're always
having to think about,

804
00:39:41,745 --> 00:39:44,400
I can't eat, I got to sleep,

805
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,035
I got to be rested.

806
00:39:46,035 --> 00:39:47,850
Because there's a
lot of pressure for

807
00:39:47,850 --> 00:39:50,520
a pianist because you
memorize all the music.

808
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,050
You're sitting on stage,

809
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:54,975
there is no music when
you play solo piano.

810
00:39:54,975 --> 00:39:57,465
You only do that when
you play chamber music.

811
00:39:57,465 --> 00:39:58,770
If I were playing with the viol

812
00:39:58,770 --> 00:40:01,260
instant cellos with
all have music.

813
00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:03,735
So there's a huge pressure

814
00:40:03,735 --> 00:40:07,305
of constantly memorizing music,

815
00:40:07,305 --> 00:40:11,910
the fear of memory
loss, a memory slip.

816
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:13,230
All of a sudden you
are in the middle of

817
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:14,355
a Beethoven sonata and like,

818
00:40:14,355 --> 00:40:16,275
oh, I'm lost.

819
00:40:16,275 --> 00:40:19,545
And that can happen because
it's all very complicated.

820
00:40:19,545 --> 00:40:22,950
But my models, I'm

821
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:25,950
looking at Gorshevski and I'm
looking at Bruce Simmons.

822
00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:29,760
They're in administration,
they're teaching,

823
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,040
they're composers, they're

824
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,475
conductors, and
they're performing.

825
00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:38,430
And I thought that's really
what I'd like to be.

826
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:42,130
I'd like to combine all
three of those things.

827
00:40:42,130 --> 00:40:45,125
And then that became my goal.

828
00:40:45,125 --> 00:40:46,925
And that's how I ended up.

829
00:40:46,925 --> 00:40:48,860
>> That seems like
an appealing model.

830
00:40:48,860 --> 00:40:51,170
>> It was a very
appealing model,

831
00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:54,400
but I just felt that it
was a realistic model.

832
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,280
For many points,

833
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,920
even financially, it
was a realistic model.

834
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,625
Because artists,
musicians, whatever,

835
00:41:02,625 --> 00:41:05,040
if you choose the
life of performing,

836
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,960
unless you make it really big,

837
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,480
unless you are a superstar,

838
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,140
super talent that
everybody is wanting

839
00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:15,015
you to record everything

840
00:41:15,015 --> 00:41:17,070
and you're in demand
on the concert stage,

841
00:41:17,070 --> 00:41:19,620
you may start to make
some money and you might

842
00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:22,395
be able to find
financial security.

843
00:41:22,395 --> 00:41:25,035
But that's a risk
because you don't know.

844
00:41:25,035 --> 00:41:28,710
And you start to realize
how many people are

845
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:30,840
talented and doing
the same thing you're

846
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,675
doing and what the
competition is.

847
00:41:33,675 --> 00:41:36,780
It's just constant competition.

848
00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:44,355
And I didn't really want that
one single kind of stress.

849
00:41:44,355 --> 00:41:47,145
All three of those
things are stress.

850
00:41:47,145 --> 00:41:51,970
But I didn't just want it to
all focused in one of those.

851
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:57,120
I saw them making
a difference in

852
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,960
their leadership with
the things that they

853
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:07,080
put in place to give the best
experience for students.

854
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,795
And that became appealing to me.

855
00:42:09,795 --> 00:42:13,410
I liked being in the
academic environment,

856
00:42:13,410 --> 00:42:18,555
being with students and the
whole learning part of that.

857
00:42:18,555 --> 00:42:20,745
And so more and more,

858
00:42:20,745 --> 00:42:23,460
it just felt like that's
where I wanted to go.

859
00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:24,900
It took a while
before I got there,

860
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,230
but that's where I wanted to go.

861
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:29,405
>> We're at a certain stage.

862
00:42:29,405 --> 00:42:31,265
So I just want to check in
and see how you're feeling.

863
00:42:31,265 --> 00:42:32,240
>> I feel great.

864
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,129
>> It feels cooler in here.

865
00:42:35,129 --> 00:42:35,840
>> [inaudible]

866
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,895
>> I think there's
some air filtering.

867
00:42:37,895 --> 00:42:40,255
>> I think it may be
a little bit. Yeah.

868
00:42:40,255 --> 00:42:41,610
>> I mean, are you comfortable

869
00:42:41,610 --> 00:42:42,570
going on a little bit further?

870
00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:45,180
>> I'd go as long as
you want me to go.

871
00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:46,950
>> Let's proceed and

872
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:48,525
we'll see how we're
feeling in a little bit.

873
00:42:48,525 --> 00:42:50,910
So tell me what you did

874
00:42:50,910 --> 00:42:53,610
after completing your education

875
00:42:53,610 --> 00:42:56,920
at least at this stage.
Where did you go from there?

876
00:42:57,530 --> 00:43:00,720
>> I went up to Yale to
study with Bruce Simmons.

877
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,920
I was not thinking
about getting a job.

878
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,440
I was just studying,

879
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:08,610
finished my master's degree.

880
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:12,030
Got in the car, two days
later went up to New Haven,

881
00:43:12,030 --> 00:43:14,115
took the train into New York,

882
00:43:14,115 --> 00:43:18,060
the express train,
went for Shakespeare.

883
00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:22,170
The Shakespeare festival there

884
00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:26,955
in between New York
and New Haven.

885
00:43:26,955 --> 00:43:29,730
I'd go into concerts
at Carnegie Hall.

886
00:43:29,730 --> 00:43:31,845
I was having a great time.

887
00:43:31,845 --> 00:43:35,340
And then I go, I've
got to get a job.

888
00:43:35,340 --> 00:43:38,445
And as luck would have it,

889
00:43:38,445 --> 00:43:43,905
a girl who had just finished
her undergraduate degree

890
00:43:43,905 --> 00:43:46,785
at the University of Georgia

891
00:43:46,785 --> 00:43:49,680
wanted to go back
and get her masters.

892
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,160
And she had gone up
to North Georgia

893
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:58,320
to Cornelia and Demers,

894
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,130
Georgia and opened a studio,

895
00:44:02,130 --> 00:44:08,115
and she had a huge
roster of students.

896
00:44:08,115 --> 00:44:11,160
And she was teaching
in the Demers School.

897
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,980
She was teaching in the Baldwin
School, which is south,

898
00:44:13,980 --> 00:44:17,355
I guess, would be of Cornelia.

899
00:44:17,355 --> 00:44:19,785
She had a studio
there in Cornelia.

900
00:44:19,785 --> 00:44:23,865
And she was the organist
of the Methodist Church.

901
00:44:23,865 --> 00:44:26,970
And she contacted me and say,

902
00:44:26,970 --> 00:44:28,650
"Do you have a job?"
And I said, no.

903
00:44:28,650 --> 00:44:32,340
And she said, "Would you come
and take over my studio and

904
00:44:32,340 --> 00:44:34,020
my organ job at

905
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:35,970
the Methodist Church while I go

906
00:44:35,970 --> 00:44:38,640
away to get my master's
degree this year?"

907
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,920
That's perfect. So I went
there and started teaching,

908
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,780
took over her students.

909
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:47,400
In one of the schools, I had

910
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,135
a choral group of
elementary students,

911
00:44:51,135 --> 00:44:54,465
which was fun and taught
in all those schools.

912
00:44:54,465 --> 00:44:56,190
I would go there
and give lessons,

913
00:44:56,190 --> 00:44:57,810
individual lessons
in those schools,

914
00:44:57,810 --> 00:44:59,910
plus in Cornelia I had

915
00:44:59,910 --> 00:45:03,570
my studio and saw
most of my students.

916
00:45:03,570 --> 00:45:06,480
And then I got really involved
in the Methodist Church,

917
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,790
playing all of the
Sunday services

918
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:09,840
and choir rehearsals on

919
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,115
Wednesday night and

920
00:45:11,115 --> 00:45:14,055
Easter services and
Christmas service.

921
00:45:14,055 --> 00:45:17,775
Absolutely wonderful people.

922
00:45:17,775 --> 00:45:21,690
They just welcomed me
and embraced me and

923
00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:25,830
I just had the best time.

924
00:45:25,830 --> 00:45:27,690
And they opened a little theater

925
00:45:27,690 --> 00:45:30,495
there called the
Apple Tree Theater.

926
00:45:30,495 --> 00:45:33,885
And I started playing for
some of the productions.

927
00:45:33,885 --> 00:45:35,835
Played recital there.

928
00:45:35,835 --> 00:45:38,130
But in the meantime,
I established

929
00:45:38,130 --> 00:45:40,485
a studio down in
Athens, Georgia.

930
00:45:40,485 --> 00:45:42,000
So I'd go down to Athens,

931
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,145
Georgia and teach on Saturday,

932
00:45:44,145 --> 00:45:48,045
drive back and do church
on Sunday in Cornelia.

933
00:45:48,045 --> 00:45:50,040
So I did that for one year

934
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,500
and it was a wonderful
experience. I loved it.

935
00:45:55,500 --> 00:46:00,855
But again, if you go back
to that time period,

936
00:46:00,855 --> 00:46:07,200
1963, being up in the mountains,

937
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,285
it was rather isolated.

938
00:46:09,285 --> 00:46:13,360
In spite of people being
loving and caring.

939
00:46:14,510 --> 00:46:20,040
So I started making applications
to go somewhere else.

940
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,920
I felt as if this was
not what I wanted to do,

941
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,390
just sit and teach.

942
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:26,640
Because when you have
that many students,

943
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,545
some of them care and
some of them don't,

944
00:46:28,545 --> 00:46:30,510
some of them practice,
some of them don't.

945
00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:34,210
It's not very
inspiring sometimes.

946
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,115
So I started applying
and low and behold,

947
00:46:38,115 --> 00:46:41,800
I applied to Clark
College in Atlanta.

948
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:45,600
Clark College was in

949
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,100
the Atlanta University System

950
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:53,265
or I called it Atlanta
University Center.

951
00:46:53,265 --> 00:46:55,680
And you had Morehouse College,

952
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,495
you had Spelman College,

953
00:46:57,495 --> 00:47:00,735
you had Marsh Brown College,

954
00:47:00,735 --> 00:47:03,330
which was over on at that
time was Hunter Street,

955
00:47:03,330 --> 00:47:04,950
and you had Clark College.

956
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:06,480
Clark College was
across the street

957
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,000
from Morehouse and Spelman.

958
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,270
So I applied for the position at

959
00:47:12,270 --> 00:47:16,500
Clark and this was in 1964.

960
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:23,100
And immediately, they asked
me to come for an interview.

961
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:27,000
And so I went for the
interview and met with

962
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,705
the president of Clark College,

963
00:47:30,705 --> 00:47:34,485
Dr. James P. Brawley,
a wonderful man,

964
00:47:34,485 --> 00:47:36,930
and the chair of

965
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:40,810
the music department was
J. DeKoven Killingsworth.

966
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,695
It was wonderful. I thought
this was a great experience.

967
00:47:49,695 --> 00:47:51,420
As you got to realize

968
00:47:51,420 --> 00:47:55,770
that President Johnson
had just passed

969
00:47:55,770 --> 00:47:58,290
the Civil Rights Act in

970
00:47:58,290 --> 00:48:03,645
July of 1964 and here
it is September 1964.

971
00:48:03,645 --> 00:48:06,570
So the history that was
taking place around

972
00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:08,160
The Civil Rights Movement

973
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,730
and what was going
on in Atlanta,

974
00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:16,260
it was just a very
interesting time and

975
00:48:16,260 --> 00:48:18,945
a very unsettling time as

976
00:48:18,945 --> 00:48:20,280
any time you have

977
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,205
these transitions that
are taking place.

978
00:48:23,205 --> 00:48:27,880
I also had an offer
at another college.

979
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,200
I thought, no, this is exciting.

980
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,300
This will be good.

981
00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:35,450
So I accepted it. Not even

982
00:48:35,450 --> 00:48:39,125
thinking about the fact that
it would be questioned.

983
00:48:39,125 --> 00:48:40,115
>> Really?

984
00:48:40,115 --> 00:48:41,075
>> Really.

985
00:48:41,075 --> 00:48:41,900
>> Not even thinking?

986
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:46,280
>> No. I guess just like
when I went to New Mexico,

987
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,110
I just lived in a
different world.

988
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,180
Obviously, if I
accepted the position,

989
00:49:00,180 --> 00:49:02,300
I wasn't thinking about

990
00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:05,435
the questions that were
going to be asked, I guess.

991
00:49:05,435 --> 00:49:08,900
So I accepted it and then
had to face the fact

992
00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:13,775
that people are saying,
"Why are you doing that?"

993
00:49:13,775 --> 00:49:17,690
And with the whole
Civil Rights Act

994
00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:19,100
and everything that
was taking place at

995
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:21,335
that time, this was transition.

996
00:49:21,335 --> 00:49:24,830
And it was a turbulent time.

997
00:49:24,830 --> 00:49:27,335
There was a lot of unrest and,

998
00:49:27,335 --> 00:49:33,770
I think Atlanta fared very
well because Ivan Allen,

999
00:49:33,770 --> 00:49:37,790
I believe, was the mayor
of Atlanta at that time.

1000
00:49:37,790 --> 00:49:39,950
And what Atlanta did and

1001
00:49:39,950 --> 00:49:43,235
keeping things from
just going crazy,

1002
00:49:43,235 --> 00:49:48,065
it was a real model
for other places.

1003
00:49:48,065 --> 00:49:50,210
>> How did your
friends and family

1004
00:49:50,210 --> 00:49:52,340
react to you taking the job?

1005
00:49:52,340 --> 00:49:54,620
>> My father told me
to go to the phone,

1006
00:49:54,620 --> 00:49:55,715
call them and say,

1007
00:49:55,715 --> 00:49:58,140
I was not taking the job.

1008
00:49:58,140 --> 00:50:01,300
My mother was not that type.

1009
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:05,950
She was too caring
[LAUGHTER] to do that.

1010
00:50:07,690 --> 00:50:12,200
Friends of my family and
myself from my town,

1011
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,660
they were a little stunned

1012
00:50:14,660 --> 00:50:20,280
and wondered why
I had done that.

1013
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:23,420
But in most parts,

1014
00:50:23,420 --> 00:50:24,890
nobody said, "Well,
we don't want to

1015
00:50:24,890 --> 00:50:26,885
see you anyway,"
except my father.

1016
00:50:26,885 --> 00:50:30,440
He didn't want to
see me ever again.

1017
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,905
And so my mother
never said that.

1018
00:50:33,905 --> 00:50:35,900
And we would talk.

1019
00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:39,980
And finally, after a few months,

1020
00:50:39,980 --> 00:50:42,440
she said, "Your father
wants you to come home."

1021
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,500
So I went home and
we talked about it

1022
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,310
and he just felt
that career-wise,

1023
00:50:49,310 --> 00:50:52,535
I was not going to be able to do

1024
00:50:52,535 --> 00:50:57,060
fulfill any of the dreams
that he had from me, mainly.

1025
00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:04,710
So I think he thought I would
not stay more than a year.

1026
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,280
And so he said,

1027
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,850
"You're not going to
sign another contract.

1028
00:51:09,850 --> 00:51:11,200
Are you?" And I
said, "Yes, I am.

1029
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,225
I'm enjoying what I'm doing."

1030
00:51:13,225 --> 00:51:15,490
The faculty and the students at

1031
00:51:15,490 --> 00:51:18,130
Clark were very welcoming,

1032
00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:23,420
and I was having a
very good experience.

1033
00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:27,500
And I saw no reason why
shouldn't sign a contract.

1034
00:51:27,500 --> 00:51:29,120
To make a long story short,

1035
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,685
I was there 11 years.

1036
00:51:31,685 --> 00:51:36,020
And things evolved.

1037
00:51:36,020 --> 00:51:41,330
Even in Atlanta where I was
living, there were concerns.

1038
00:51:41,330 --> 00:51:43,190
When I was living there off

1039
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:45,590
Peachtree on Peachtree
Memorial Drive

1040
00:51:45,590 --> 00:51:47,585
moved into an apartment,

1041
00:51:47,585 --> 00:51:50,120
and the neighbors found

1042
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,400
out that I was teaching
at Clark College.

1043
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,970
So their word got around,

1044
00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:58,820
they called the landlady
who owned the building.

1045
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:01,760
She called me the phone and
told me I'd have to move.

1046
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,155
I couldn't live there,

1047
00:52:03,155 --> 00:52:07,340
because I would be
entertaining Black people.

1048
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:10,835
And I said, "I don't
understand this."

1049
00:52:10,835 --> 00:52:14,645
So I went to every door
and knocked on every door

1050
00:52:14,645 --> 00:52:18,140
of all of my neighbors and
looked in the eye and said,

1051
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:21,275
"I understand you have
concerns about me."

1052
00:52:21,275 --> 00:52:25,430
In every case, they all

1053
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:33,395
just smiled and pretty
much welcomed to me,

1054
00:52:33,395 --> 00:52:36,320
and it all just went away.

1055
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,405
And I did not move,

1056
00:52:38,405 --> 00:52:42,950
and I had faculty and people
to come over for dinner.

1057
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:47,030
And so I only

1058
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:49,370
lived on Peachtree
Memorial Drive for a year,

1059
00:52:49,370 --> 00:52:51,095
because I didn't want
to live there anymore.

1060
00:52:51,095 --> 00:52:52,790
And then I moved on to

1061
00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:54,380
another place as you
do when you're young.

1062
00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:55,730
You go from one apartment to

1063
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:58,200
the next apartment, or whatever.

1064
00:52:59,020 --> 00:53:01,460
But I stayed 11 years,

1065
00:53:01,460 --> 00:53:03,950
and that was a very
good experience.

1066
00:53:03,950 --> 00:53:09,095
In the meantime, I left
and went to Salzburg,

1067
00:53:09,095 --> 00:53:12,660
Austria to study
at the Mozarteum.

1068
00:53:14,020 --> 00:53:17,705
When I got there, I

1069
00:53:17,705 --> 00:53:21,245
had a wonderful teacher
at the Mozarteum,

1070
00:53:21,245 --> 00:53:23,675
and the teacher
liked my playing,

1071
00:53:23,675 --> 00:53:27,800
and they wanted to

1072
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,740
present me in an
international concert.

1073
00:53:30,740 --> 00:53:33,740
And so when I arrived there,

1074
00:53:33,740 --> 00:53:35,975
I played the Prokofiev sonata,

1075
00:53:35,975 --> 00:53:38,060
and my teacher just
thought it was great.

1076
00:53:38,060 --> 00:53:40,400
So they wanted to record it,

1077
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,720
do a video recording.

1078
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:45,530
Now this is in 1966.

1079
00:53:45,530 --> 00:53:52,755
And so why do they want to
do this? Questioning it.

1080
00:53:52,755 --> 00:53:56,480
So I lived in a private home,

1081
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,980
I had to walk to school,

1082
00:53:57,980 --> 00:53:59,330
cross the Salzach River to

1083
00:53:59,330 --> 00:54:00,800
get to the Mozarteum every day.

1084
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,270
I had a wonderful piano,

1085
00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:04,715
but the studios had Steinways,

1086
00:54:04,715 --> 00:54:06,800
and they had Bosendorfer pianos,

1087
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,660
the Austrian German piano.

1088
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,150
I thought, "My goodness,

1089
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:17,420
I just came to study
and have a good time.

1090
00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:21,590
Now I've got to start practicing
six hours a day again."

1091
00:54:21,590 --> 00:54:25,415
So I did because I had the
performance coming up.

1092
00:54:25,415 --> 00:54:27,770
And so when the taping
was supposed to be,

1093
00:54:27,770 --> 00:54:30,440
I did show up today, James.

1094
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,480
When the taping came for

1095
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,885
the Prokofiev sonata,
I didn't show up.

1096
00:54:35,885 --> 00:54:39,035
And when I got to
school that day,

1097
00:54:39,035 --> 00:54:40,595
he said, "Why didn't
you show up?"

1098
00:54:40,595 --> 00:54:43,700
And I said, "It was
raining and whatever."

1099
00:54:43,700 --> 00:54:46,085
He said, we're going
to do it right now.

1100
00:54:46,085 --> 00:54:48,590
He took me right in to

1101
00:54:48,590 --> 00:54:51,200
the studio and the
camera started to roll,

1102
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:56,405
and I had to play the entire
Prokofiev fourth sonata,

1103
00:54:56,405 --> 00:54:58,010
which may still be in

1104
00:54:58,010 --> 00:55:01,640
their archives in
Salzburg, Austria.

1105
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,180
Then I performed in the
international performance

1106
00:55:05,180 --> 00:55:07,370
with a pianist from France,

1107
00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:10,760
from Greece, Austria,
the United States.

1108
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,340
There were five of us chosen,

1109
00:55:13,340 --> 00:55:17,315
and that was a
wonderful experience.

1110
00:55:17,315 --> 00:55:19,025
>> How long were you there?

1111
00:55:19,025 --> 00:55:21,560
>> I was there for four months.

1112
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:22,610
>> So you were. [OVERLAPPING]

1113
00:55:22,610 --> 00:55:24,425
>> It was a summer program.

1114
00:55:24,425 --> 00:55:29,060
And it was there during
the Salzburg Festival.

1115
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:31,205
I performed during the
Salzburg Festival,

1116
00:55:31,205 --> 00:55:33,290
which has been going on for

1117
00:55:33,290 --> 00:55:35,720
years and years with all the
major artists coming in.

1118
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:37,535
I came back to Clark

1119
00:55:37,535 --> 00:55:45,830
and we were always again
with this competition thing,

1120
00:55:45,830 --> 00:55:47,765
where I'm going to talk about

1121
00:55:47,765 --> 00:55:50,405
what led me away from Clark.

1122
00:55:50,405 --> 00:55:56,300
Spelman was very well-established
in terms of music.

1123
00:55:56,300 --> 00:56:01,310
The Rockefellers had given
lots of grants to Spelman.

1124
00:56:01,310 --> 00:56:06,845
They had all Steinways in their
wonderful music building.

1125
00:56:06,845 --> 00:56:09,410
Morehouse across the street had

1126
00:56:09,410 --> 00:56:11,120
wonderful facilities and

1127
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,640
the Morehouse Glee
Club was renowned.

1128
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:18,820
We were just a stepchild
across the street.

1129
00:56:18,820 --> 00:56:20,545
We had no facilities,

1130
00:56:20,545 --> 00:56:23,665
we had no decent pianos.

1131
00:56:23,665 --> 00:56:26,485
But we were trying so hard.

1132
00:56:26,485 --> 00:56:29,260
And the whole concept
that had been

1133
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:33,370
created with the Atlanta
University Center was to

1134
00:56:33,370 --> 00:56:35,230
bring all those
schools together in

1135
00:56:35,230 --> 00:56:40,420
one place and not operate
so independently,

1136
00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:45,100
but to be more collaborative
and to cut out duplication.

1137
00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:48,145
Well, guess what?
Doesn't happen.

1138
00:56:48,145 --> 00:56:50,575
Everybody was teaching.

1139
00:56:50,575 --> 00:56:52,840
Everybody taught music theory.

1140
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,710
Everybody was aware
we could have created

1141
00:56:56,710 --> 00:57:01,285
a music theory course and
there could be other courses.

1142
00:57:01,285 --> 00:57:03,070
And students could
have walked across

1143
00:57:03,070 --> 00:57:05,230
the street from Morehouse
or from Spelman,

1144
00:57:05,230 --> 00:57:07,210
or students from Clark

1145
00:57:07,210 --> 00:57:09,430
could have gone across
to take courses.

1146
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:11,335
I didn't happen.

1147
00:57:11,335 --> 00:57:13,210
So the whole intention
because Clark

1148
00:57:13,210 --> 00:57:15,040
started out on
University Avenue.

1149
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:16,810
If you go south on San,

1150
00:57:16,810 --> 00:57:19,960
there was a beautiful
building still there that

1151
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,230
was Clark University.
It was called then.

1152
00:57:25,230 --> 00:57:28,680
So when it came over to
the university center,

1153
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,885
there was this competition,

1154
00:57:30,885 --> 00:57:33,520
everyone trying to outdo the

1155
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,570
other and feeling like
we're much better than you.

1156
00:57:37,570 --> 00:57:40,450
So I didn't see much future

1157
00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:44,575
because they had already
wonderful established programs,

1158
00:57:44,575 --> 00:57:46,840
and I felt that Clark
was struggling.

1159
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,930
I was the accompanist for
the Philmonic Society,

1160
00:57:49,930 --> 00:57:52,570
which was the Clark chorus,

1161
00:57:52,570 --> 00:57:55,585
wonderful talent,
wonderful students.

1162
00:57:55,585 --> 00:58:02,560
We traveled by bus up into
the Midwest and did concerts.

1163
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,750
I taught piano, I
taught music theory,

1164
00:58:04,750 --> 00:58:06,835
I taught all the courses.

1165
00:58:06,835 --> 00:58:10,585
But then my best friend

1166
00:58:10,585 --> 00:58:12,880
on the music faculty
Bernard Hunter,

1167
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,680
decided he was not happy and
he decided to go to Fisk to

1168
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:23,530
be the chair of the music
department at Fisk University.

1169
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:26,680
Things had become
a little bit more

1170
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,805
unsettling as we see
ourselves now at

1171
00:58:30,805 --> 00:58:34,015
times when we have

1172
00:58:34,015 --> 00:58:36,610
unrest and it was
starting to come about

1173
00:58:36,610 --> 00:58:42,600
again with the Black
Panther movement

1174
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:48,070
with my being white.

1175
00:58:50,010 --> 00:58:54,025
I received some letters
that were not comfortable

1176
00:58:54,025 --> 00:59:00,160
for me and anonymously.

1177
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,470
So I would go to my mailbox and

1178
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:04,555
I would take out a letter,

1179
00:59:04,555 --> 00:59:05,650
and it would go sometimes

1180
00:59:05,650 --> 00:59:08,020
four weeks before I'd
get the next one.

1181
00:59:08,020 --> 00:59:09,925
And it would be typed

1182
00:59:09,925 --> 00:59:13,210
all lower case letters
telling me that I

1183
00:59:13,210 --> 00:59:17,365
was damaging their students

1184
00:59:17,365 --> 00:59:19,780
and I needed to go
and if I didn't,

1185
00:59:19,780 --> 00:59:22,405
something bad was
going to happen to me.

1186
00:59:22,405 --> 00:59:24,865
So it went on for a while and

1187
00:59:24,865 --> 00:59:26,860
I just felt so uncomfortable.

1188
00:59:26,860 --> 00:59:29,725
The administration started
to feel uncomfortable.

1189
00:59:29,725 --> 00:59:34,520
They wanted to do
everything to protect me.

1190
00:59:34,590 --> 00:59:38,770
So I thought, well,

1191
00:59:38,770 --> 00:59:40,345
I better start thinking

1192
00:59:40,345 --> 00:59:42,670
in a different way
about my career,

1193
00:59:42,670 --> 00:59:46,015
about what I'm going to do next.

1194
00:59:46,015 --> 00:59:49,450
In the meantime, I decided
that I would go down to

1195
00:59:49,450 --> 00:59:53,185
Georgia State and I called
Ruth Duncan McDonald,

1196
00:59:53,185 --> 00:59:54,490
who was on the piano faculty,

1197
00:59:54,490 --> 00:59:57,130
and I said, "I'd
like to talk to you.

1198
00:59:57,130 --> 00:59:59,020
I'd like to have a coach."

1199
00:59:59,020 --> 01:00:00,550
She was a wonderful
pianist and played

1200
01:00:00,550 --> 01:00:02,785
in Carnegie Hall a
couple of times.

1201
01:00:02,785 --> 01:00:05,575
I said, "I need to
get, my skills."

1202
01:00:05,575 --> 01:00:08,065
I didn't have a
good piano there.

1203
01:00:08,065 --> 01:00:10,690
I need to start
getting prepared in

1204
01:00:10,690 --> 01:00:14,350
case I need to have
my next career move.

1205
01:00:14,350 --> 01:00:16,540
So she said, "Oh, yeah, come."

1206
01:00:16,540 --> 01:00:19,165
So I started going down
and playing for her

1207
01:00:19,165 --> 01:00:22,255
every week and she
was wonderful.

1208
01:00:22,255 --> 01:00:23,620
And then Georgia State started

1209
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,750
an artist in residence program.

1210
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:28,090
And she said, "William Masels,

1211
01:00:28,090 --> 01:00:30,040
the great pianist recording
artist who played with at

1212
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,420
Atlanta Symphony is coming

1213
01:00:31,420 --> 01:00:32,860
to be here as artist
in residence,

1214
01:00:32,860 --> 01:00:35,140
and I'd love you to
study with him."

1215
01:00:35,140 --> 01:00:37,315
So I said, "Okay."

1216
01:00:37,315 --> 01:00:40,750
So first, I was just paying her

1217
01:00:40,750 --> 01:00:45,025
to coach me to get my
repertoire back up.

1218
01:00:45,025 --> 01:00:48,850
And so he came and

1219
01:00:48,850 --> 01:00:50,830
the only way you could
study with him is

1220
01:00:50,830 --> 01:00:52,960
you had to enroll as a student.

1221
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:56,290
But you couldn't just enroll
to study piano with him.

1222
01:00:56,290 --> 01:00:58,910
You had to take another
course as well.

1223
01:00:58,950 --> 01:01:02,875
So I started studying and
taking another course.

1224
01:01:02,875 --> 01:01:05,710
Well, after a while, I
had so many courses,

1225
01:01:05,710 --> 01:01:07,210
and they at that time,

1226
01:01:07,210 --> 01:01:09,925
were thinking that they were
going to have a doctorate.

1227
01:01:09,925 --> 01:01:11,830
So I even auditioned for

1228
01:01:11,830 --> 01:01:13,990
the doctoral program
was accepted.

1229
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:15,460
I had all these credits,

1230
01:01:15,460 --> 01:01:18,640
but they didn't go towards
and they never to this day

1231
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:23,215
ever have gotten a doctoral
program in piano performance.

1232
01:01:23,215 --> 01:01:26,530
So I decided I might
as well finish

1233
01:01:26,530 --> 01:01:29,515
up all the requirements
and get another degree.

1234
01:01:29,515 --> 01:01:32,050
So I had the Master
of Fine Arts degree.

1235
01:01:32,050 --> 01:01:35,560
So I finished the Georgia
State degree with a master of

1236
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,490
music degree in piano performance
and did all the stuff,

1237
01:01:39,490 --> 01:01:43,165
the recitals and
everything all over again.

1238
01:01:43,165 --> 01:01:46,795
And in that process,

1239
01:01:46,795 --> 01:01:47,980
I started meeting people

1240
01:01:47,980 --> 01:01:50,995
faculty students
at Georgia State.

1241
01:01:50,995 --> 01:01:54,730
I was known as being a
very good accompanist.

1242
01:01:54,730 --> 01:01:58,900
People asking me to accompany
their recitals accompanying

1243
01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:04,760
Georgia State people which
is what led me to Kennesaw.

1244
01:02:05,970 --> 01:02:09,730
A student at Georgia
State, a wonderful singer,

1245
01:02:09,730 --> 01:02:13,705
had a friend in the
community, Donna Angel,

1246
01:02:13,705 --> 01:02:15,910
who had graduated from
Northwestern University,

1247
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:18,790
and she was still singing
a lot and she wanted

1248
01:02:18,790 --> 01:02:22,420
me to accompany her.

1249
01:02:22,420 --> 01:02:25,180
And she said, "I have a recital

1250
01:02:25,180 --> 01:02:28,420
scheduled at Kennesaw
Junior College,

1251
01:02:28,420 --> 01:02:31,855
will you come and accompany
me in that recital?"

1252
01:02:31,855 --> 01:02:33,040
And so I said,

1253
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:37,910
"Yes." And here I am.

1254
01:02:39,210 --> 01:02:42,805
Of course, we have a lot
to talk about about how

1255
01:02:42,805 --> 01:02:45,550
I then eventually
came here to teach,

1256
01:02:45,550 --> 01:02:48,835
but Kennesaw was very small.

1257
01:02:48,835 --> 01:02:50,380
It was a junior
college sitting in

1258
01:02:50,380 --> 01:02:54,175
a pasture because this was
all farm line up here.

1259
01:02:54,175 --> 01:02:56,965
And so we played the recital,

1260
01:02:56,965 --> 01:03:00,685
and then they invited me to
come and play a solo recital.

1261
01:03:00,685 --> 01:03:07,840
So I did that and that
started to lead me away from

1262
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,160
Clark and it moved

1263
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:15,220
forward so that I ended
up coming here to teach.

1264
01:03:15,220 --> 01:03:18,070
>> Well, to conclude
this conversation,

1265
01:03:18,070 --> 01:03:23,185
I do want to talk
about 68 at Clark

1266
01:03:23,185 --> 01:03:29,740
and culminating events
motivated you to leave Clark.

1267
01:03:29,740 --> 01:03:33,010
And part of that being
Dr. King's assassination.

1268
01:03:33,010 --> 01:03:34,780
Can you talk a little
bit about that?

1269
01:03:34,780 --> 01:03:37,570
>> And I'm glad
you mentioned that

1270
01:03:37,570 --> 01:03:39,730
because when I said a
lot of unrest came,

1271
01:03:39,730 --> 01:03:44,030
it came with Dr.
King's assassination.

1272
01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:50,490
And I remember coming
in to the campus.

1273
01:03:50,490 --> 01:03:51,630
The music department was on

1274
01:03:51,630 --> 01:03:55,020
the lower floor of the building.

1275
01:03:55,020 --> 01:03:56,775
And as I came down the step,

1276
01:03:56,775 --> 01:04:00,580
a very talented voice student,

1277
01:04:00,860 --> 01:04:06,375
came up the steps and she
always called me Mixi.

1278
01:04:06,375 --> 01:04:09,960
And she said, "Mixi
get out of here.

1279
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:11,535
The king is dead,

1280
01:04:11,535 --> 01:04:12,615
the king is dead,

1281
01:04:12,615 --> 01:04:14,550
you need to get out of here."

1282
01:04:14,550 --> 01:04:18,150
And I was just stunned by that,

1283
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:22,755
not even thinking about
danger or anything,

1284
01:04:22,755 --> 01:04:25,920
because I had not really

1285
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:27,390
any bad experience except I had

1286
01:04:27,390 --> 01:04:29,860
started getting these letters.

1287
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,800
So I thought, "My goodness,

1288
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,380
Martin Luther King has
been assassinated."

1289
01:04:37,380 --> 01:04:40,620
And so of course, the campuses,

1290
01:04:40,620 --> 01:04:45,210
everybody was just
grieving. It was terrible.

1291
01:04:45,210 --> 01:04:47,115
So I did leave,

1292
01:04:47,115 --> 01:04:48,465
because they didn't think it

1293
01:04:48,465 --> 01:04:51,280
would be safe for
me to be there.

1294
01:04:51,470 --> 01:04:53,880
Doctor King lay in

1295
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:58,965
state at Spelman College
and Sisters Chapel.

1296
01:04:58,965 --> 01:05:02,070
And I remember going and filing

1297
01:05:02,070 --> 01:05:06,000
by his coffin because
it was an open coffin.

1298
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,505
Of course, had glass
across the top.

1299
01:05:08,505 --> 01:05:11,070
Sometimes people would
have glass and of course,

1300
01:05:11,070 --> 01:05:13,330
with him and I understand that.

1301
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:18,420
But it was a turbulent time.

1302
01:05:18,420 --> 01:05:24,945
And I think Atlanta

1303
01:05:24,945 --> 01:05:26,955
managed to get through without

1304
01:05:26,955 --> 01:05:29,925
a lot of terrible
things happening,

1305
01:05:29,925 --> 01:05:34,390
but he was a catalyst
for a lot of things.

1306
01:05:35,450 --> 01:05:39,030
If we go back to that 1964 when

1307
01:05:39,030 --> 01:05:43,980
President Johnson signed
the Civil Rights Act,

1308
01:05:43,980 --> 01:05:46,650
that established
that nobody could be

1309
01:05:46,650 --> 01:05:49,860
discriminated against
in public places.

1310
01:05:49,860 --> 01:05:51,690
And that meant restaurants

1311
01:05:51,690 --> 01:05:55,845
or hotels and
motels or anything.

1312
01:05:55,845 --> 01:06:01,305
So [NOISE] it opened up
those possibilities,

1313
01:06:01,305 --> 01:06:03,690
but still when you did them,

1314
01:06:03,690 --> 01:06:06,255
there was a certain
amount of discomfort,

1315
01:06:06,255 --> 01:06:09,885
because it was not
what had been.

1316
01:06:09,885 --> 01:06:13,235
So Bernard Hunter was

1317
01:06:13,235 --> 01:06:16,670
a faculty member and
very talented man.

1318
01:06:16,670 --> 01:06:18,710
He had gotten his
undergraduate degree

1319
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:20,030
at Oberlin College,

1320
01:06:20,030 --> 01:06:22,775
his master's degree at Syracuse,

1321
01:06:22,775 --> 01:06:24,850
and his doctorate in Indiana.

1322
01:06:24,850 --> 01:06:27,190
Wonderful organist.

1323
01:06:27,770 --> 01:06:30,315
And he and I became
great friends,

1324
01:06:30,315 --> 01:06:33,015
and we'd love to go out
to lunch or to dinner.

1325
01:06:33,015 --> 01:06:35,865
We would go downtown to

1326
01:06:35,865 --> 01:06:38,430
have dinner or lunch
at Stouffer's,

1327
01:06:38,430 --> 01:06:42,345
which was at the top of
the mart on Peachtree.

1328
01:06:42,345 --> 01:06:46,470
Stouffer's was one of
the restaurants who,

1329
01:06:46,470 --> 01:06:49,080
they started all in different
cities across the country,

1330
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:50,880
the top of whatever.

1331
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,160
[NOISE] Opening restaurants.

1332
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,045
The food was excellent,

1333
01:06:57,045 --> 01:06:59,655
and they made it very clear

1334
01:06:59,655 --> 01:07:04,770
that there was no
discrimination, whatever.

1335
01:07:04,770 --> 01:07:07,470
So we would go there and
we'd have a very nice lunch,

1336
01:07:07,470 --> 01:07:09,960
but did not keep
people from sitting at

1337
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,290
another table staring at us.

1338
01:07:13,290 --> 01:07:17,910
So you knew that
you were a novelty.

1339
01:07:17,910 --> 01:07:21,405
There was a richest
department store in Atlanta,

1340
01:07:21,405 --> 01:07:23,160
which was a wonderful
department store,

1341
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,110
and they had a
wonderful restaurant

1342
01:07:25,110 --> 01:07:26,535
called the Magnolia Room,

1343
01:07:26,535 --> 01:07:28,995
and it was wonderful to go
there for lunch or dinner.

1344
01:07:28,995 --> 01:07:32,190
And we would go there.
Again, people were a

1345
01:07:32,190 --> 01:07:34,170
little astonished to
see a black man and

1346
01:07:34,170 --> 01:07:36,570
a white man sitting at a table,

1347
01:07:36,570 --> 01:07:39,370
having lunch or dinner.

1348
01:07:39,650 --> 01:07:42,510
The restaurant at that time that

1349
01:07:42,510 --> 01:07:44,460
was on Hunter Street
was Paschal's,

1350
01:07:44,460 --> 01:07:46,635
which is still exists today.

1351
01:07:46,635 --> 01:07:51,915
It moved over to Martin
Luther King Junior Boulevard,

1352
01:07:51,915 --> 01:07:55,410
and of course, there at
the airport and around.

1353
01:07:55,410 --> 01:07:57,690
But at that time,
when I was at Clark,

1354
01:07:57,690 --> 01:07:59,970
it was then known
as Hunter Street.

1355
01:07:59,970 --> 01:08:02,025
I think that's International
Boulevard now.

1356
01:08:02,025 --> 01:08:04,065
With all the name
changes, I can't keep up.

1357
01:08:04,065 --> 01:08:08,700
And they had a motel associated
with the restaurants.

1358
01:08:08,700 --> 01:08:14,730
And it was the unofficial
civil rights meeting place

1359
01:08:14,730 --> 01:08:16,575
for Martin Luther King,

1360
01:08:16,575 --> 01:08:21,555
Andrew Young, John Lewis.

1361
01:08:21,555 --> 01:08:23,250
All of these people who were

1362
01:08:23,250 --> 01:08:25,995
involved in the civil
rights movement,

1363
01:08:25,995 --> 01:08:27,750
you would see them there.

1364
01:08:27,750 --> 01:08:29,940
And they would come
there to have lunch.

1365
01:08:29,940 --> 01:08:34,890
Paschal's was the first
restaurant to seat blacks and

1366
01:08:34,890 --> 01:08:40,755
whites together in
the dining room.

1367
01:08:40,755 --> 01:08:45,255
Paschal's was
established in 1947.

1368
01:08:45,255 --> 01:08:51,180
And so we went there often
for lunch and for dinner.

1369
01:08:51,180 --> 01:08:53,700
It was very popular place.

1370
01:08:53,700 --> 01:08:58,380
It's later on the lodge

1371
01:08:58,380 --> 01:09:03,150
was given to Clark College
and became a dormitory.

1372
01:09:03,150 --> 01:09:07,230
And of course, the
restaurant part,

1373
01:09:07,230 --> 01:09:10,530
I think maybe is just I
don't know if anybody has

1374
01:09:10,530 --> 01:09:12,390
moved into that or
taken that over

1375
01:09:12,390 --> 01:09:14,955
because the restaurant
moved to another place.

1376
01:09:14,955 --> 01:09:21,150
But it was the time
we were living in.

1377
01:09:21,150 --> 01:09:27,120
And it's memorable times

1378
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,640
and sometimes it was
an uncomfortable time.

1379
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:35,640
And not just for me

1380
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:40,020
but for the Black
faculty for Bernard.

1381
01:09:40,020 --> 01:09:43,785
He was always struggling

1382
01:09:43,785 --> 01:09:46,785
with those wonderful
credentials,

1383
01:09:46,785 --> 01:09:49,890
this wonderful talent,
and he would be

1384
01:09:49,890 --> 01:09:51,585
invited to St. Philips Cathedral

1385
01:09:51,585 --> 01:09:53,730
on Peachtree to play recitals.

1386
01:09:53,730 --> 01:10:01,390
He was so respected by the
National Guild of Organist.

1387
01:10:02,150 --> 01:10:05,760
But again, just seeing what he

1388
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,990
experienced in being
in a place where it

1389
01:10:09,990 --> 01:10:13,350
was still not a comfortable
environment to go

1390
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:16,860
out and be in restaurants or be

1391
01:10:16,860 --> 01:10:19,380
a part of the city that

1392
01:10:19,380 --> 01:10:24,930
now is you do and go
wherever you want.

1393
01:10:24,930 --> 01:10:28,620
So I lived through that and
I experienced all that,

1394
01:10:28,620 --> 01:10:31,770
and I guess you could say,

1395
01:10:31,770 --> 01:10:35,835
I learned what it was
like to be a minority,

1396
01:10:35,835 --> 01:10:38,685
because I was a minority.

1397
01:10:38,685 --> 01:10:40,875
The interesting thing with

1398
01:10:40,875 --> 01:10:43,785
all of the schools
and the center,

1399
01:10:43,785 --> 01:10:46,680
they had always had an
exchange program with

1400
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,425
Smith College and
colleges in the North

1401
01:10:49,425 --> 01:10:51,900
and students would come
from there and spend

1402
01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:54,990
a year at Clark or
Spelman or Morehouse,

1403
01:10:54,990 --> 01:10:58,260
and then Clark students
would go to these schools.

1404
01:10:58,260 --> 01:11:00,120
So there was an
exchange program.

1405
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:04,920
The schools were established
by missionaries.

1406
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,645
Way back schools were
more than 100 years old.

1407
01:11:09,645 --> 01:11:11,925
And it was not unusual.

1408
01:11:11,925 --> 01:11:13,755
There were white faculty and

1409
01:11:13,755 --> 01:11:18,615
Black faculty at
all of the schools.

1410
01:11:18,615 --> 01:11:21,375
So that was the environment.

1411
01:11:21,375 --> 01:11:23,295
But in terms of numbers,

1412
01:11:23,295 --> 01:11:25,515
yes, I was a minority.

1413
01:11:25,515 --> 01:11:28,275
But you start to know what
that experience is like.

1414
01:11:28,275 --> 01:11:30,990
We knew what that was like
when we got on the bus and

1415
01:11:30,990 --> 01:11:34,155
had to ride all the way
to our destination,

1416
01:11:34,155 --> 01:11:35,805
and we'd leave late at night

1417
01:11:35,805 --> 01:11:37,800
so we could sleep on the bus,

1418
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,620
and get there, we'd
sleep in the basement of

1419
01:11:40,620 --> 01:11:44,835
churches and mostly
white churches,

1420
01:11:44,835 --> 01:11:47,100
then we'd do our concert,

1421
01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:49,335
we'd get back on the bus

1422
01:11:49,335 --> 01:11:52,140
and ride all those
hours back to Atlanta.

1423
01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:54,520
There was no stopping.

1424
01:11:55,670 --> 01:11:59,100
>> That was a
defining experience.

1425
01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:01,635
>> It's a defining
moment for you.

1426
01:12:01,635 --> 01:12:10,275
And I guess when I
took that position,

1427
01:12:10,275 --> 01:12:13,690
I took it with that in mind.

1428
01:12:14,450 --> 01:12:18,090
When we talk about
conversation and

1429
01:12:18,090 --> 01:12:21,705
coming together from
both sides to talk,

1430
01:12:21,705 --> 01:12:24,480
that's where I took
the steps forward,

1431
01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:26,430
to be in an environment
where I could

1432
01:12:26,430 --> 01:12:30,010
learn more about another race,

1433
01:12:30,440 --> 01:12:35,280
and to participate
in that experience.

1434
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,260
>> Well, I think
this is a good place

1435
01:12:37,260 --> 01:12:39,030
to put pause for today.

1436
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:41,400
So when we get back together,

1437
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,970
we'll talk about your
time at [inaudible].

1438
01:12:44,970 --> 01:12:46,590
>> We'll talk about
how that transitioned.

1439
01:12:46,590 --> 01:12:47,790
[LAUGHTER]

1440
01:12:47,790 --> 01:12:48,975
>> Well, thank you very much.

1441
01:12:48,975 --> 01:12:51,280
>> Thank you, James.