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>> It's Saturday, July 26, 2014.

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This is Anne Graham
and Heather Oswald,

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archivist with Kennesaw
State University Archives.

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We're interviewing
Jon C Greaves in

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the studios of the Audio
Video Technology Services

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at Kennesaw State
University as part of

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the museum's Archives and

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Rear Books Oral History Project.

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This is our second
interview with Jon.

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>> So to get started, Jon,

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can you talk about
your experience at

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the two Democratic National
Presidential Conventions

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in 88' and 92'?

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>> Yes. So the Democratic
Convention in 1988,

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a good friend of mine,

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Dick Rhodes had
run as a delegate

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from DeKalb County for
the Democrat Convention,

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and he was selected.

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So he was going to be a
delegate at the Convention.

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And there were groups
of us that got together

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and talked about what he was
going to be doing there.

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But something else that
happened at that Convention.

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Dick was inside the Convention.

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He was a friend, and he
was one of the first and

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not the first
openly gay delegate

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to the Democratic
National Convention.

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But the national organization,

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the Gay Lesbian Task Force,

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and at that point,

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it was not HRC,

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it was a Human Rights
Campaign Fund,

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HRCF decided that they
would jointly sponsor

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a gay and lesbian press
booth and press suite

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and that they would talk about

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the issues that they wanted to

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get into the platform
and that they wanted

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the candidates to address and

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provide press packets
to the media.

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And that was a first.

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There hadn't been a gay and

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lesbian press activity
there before.

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So as the convention started,

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the joint press suite asked for

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volunteers to come
help get things ready,

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and David and I volunteered.

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So we went and oddly,

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that's probably not that odd.

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Most people don't like politics.

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And most gay and
lesbian people are

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apolitical unless they are

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really motivated
because something

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has come hit their
back door or whatever.

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So there weren't a lot of
people that volunteered,

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and there was the head of

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the National Gay and
Lesbian Task Force

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at the time was Urvashi Vaid,

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and her partner, Kate Clinton
was a woman comedian.

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It's hilarious. And we

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showed up to help
at the press suite,

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and it was the night before
the convention started,

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and nobody else was there,

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just Kate and Urvashi.

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No other volunteers had come.

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So they said, we've got to get

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all these press packages
ready for the media,

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and they had all this
stuff they'd been

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copying at Kinko's or

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somewhere and
contact information.

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And so we sat in

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the press suite and stuffed
press packages till maybe

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2:00 in the morning
and Kate Clinton

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kept ordering rounds of drinks
brought up to the room,

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charging them in her credit
card and telling jokes.

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So we stuffed press packets and

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drank and listened to jokes
till 2:00 in the morning.

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We went back and volunteered
and worked there

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some more and talked to

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Dick a little bit
in the evenings,

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but he was really busy,

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with the activities going on.

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And I was already a member of

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the Gay and Lesbian right
chapter of the ACLU of Georgia.

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And the ACLU was

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concerned that groups
that wanted to protest,

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which there are always our
groups at the conventions.

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That they be allowed to protest

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and their First Amendment
rights would be respected.

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And they had talked some
and met with the police.

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One of the groups that got
a permit to protest was

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the was the Ku Klux Klan,

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one of the chapters, and

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I don't remember
where they were from.

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But there was an
effort among lots of

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different social
justice groups from

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a variety of communities
from the Black community,

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from the gay and
lesbian community,

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from people connected
with Civilierties,

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from the ACLU, people that were

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connected with the
anti-defamation league.

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They said, we need to have a

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counterprotest and not just let

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them be there saying what
they're saying, unchallenged.

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So that was one of the
things I showed up for.

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And they had this group
of Ku Klux Klansmen.

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There was maybe eight
or nine of them,

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and they had little blow horns.

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Those are called
little megaphone,

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things, you speak through.

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And they're doing some chants

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and there were policemen
in a ring around them,

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like where they could

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link arms and completely
surround them.

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And so there's seven
or eight Klansmen

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and about 4-500
counter-protesters.

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And you could tell the
police were really on edge.

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And I was with the
counter-protesters and we

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were shouting back at them and

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really drowning out
the Ku Klux Klansman.

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And at some point,
somebody picked up

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a rock or something
and threw it at

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the Klansman and some
other people threw things.

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And I remember
saying, stop that.

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Don't do that. And yelling

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at the people that were

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close to me that were
picking stuff up.

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And this is happening.

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The police told the
Klansmen and they said,

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Come on, we can't protect you.

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You could hear him say this.

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And there was this
ring of policemen with

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the Klansmen in the middle
running at a jogging pace,

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running away from the
official demonstration area,

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and people were
throwing stuff at them.

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This four or 500
people might have

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been may have been

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eight or nine or 10 people
that were throwing stuff,

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but it looked like it could
turn ugly. And I stepped out.

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I got out in front of the
crowd and between the crowd of

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protesters and the Klansmen

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and the police that
were running away,

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and just as loud as I
could, yelled. Stop it.

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Don't drop to their level.

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Don't throw things at them,

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and somebody slugged me and
knocked me to the crowd.

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[LAUGHTER] So I laugh
at that because

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I wasn't hurt badly,

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but I learned a valuable lesson.

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If you're going to
be a peacemaker

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between groups
that are agitated,

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angry with each other, be

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careful about how
close you are to them,

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if you're going to
get in between them.

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So that was useful for later
things, useful lesson.

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I did some work
with the ACLU later

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on clinic escorts when people

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were protesting outside
abortion clinics

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and attacking the people who
were going in for abortions.

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Learned to keep your
distance from people

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and they were angry at

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each other and he did
political confrontations.

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So there was a group that
came from New York ACT UP,

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which is a group that was formed

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really to fight for better
drugs for people of

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AIDS to fight for quicker
and faster research and

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better treatment by
caregivers, by the government.

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And it came out of New York.

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And the New York ACT UP people

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were one of the
groups that came to

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Atlanta for the demonstrations
around the convention.

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They needed some places to stay,

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and David and I hosted a
couple of them in our home,

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and I participated in

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some of their
demonstrations with them.

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And one of the things I

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have that I can't
fit into anymore,

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but it's an ACT UP shirt.

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It's got the black shirt with

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the pink triangle and the
silence equals death.

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I think I showed it to you last

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time I was here, and
I have it with me.

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But they gave me one of

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their shirts and so it's
a prize possession.

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And it was before there was

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an ACT UP chapter in Atlanta,
but it hadn't formed yet.

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It formed actually after

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the convention in
the following year.

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So that was some of
the experience there

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as being an outsider
outside the convention,

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participating in demonstrations,

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trying to get the intention of

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the media and of the
people attending

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the convention and the political

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leaders attending
the convention.

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And knowing Dick was inside,

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trying to work to do
a little of what you

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do as part of

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the process instead of being

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an outsider outside protesting.

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So that was the experience
being an outsider at

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the 1988 Convention and working
outside the convention.

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In 1992 for the Presidential
Convention, I ran.

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Dick Rhodes and I mentioned
was a political mentor,

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and he had run as a delegate.

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He ran and became

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the chair of

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the DeKalb County Democratic
Party for a while.

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And I followed some
of his lead and got

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involved in Cobb County
Democratic Party politics.

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Which was disappointing.
They didn't do a lot.

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They had meetings and
talked a little bit,

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and they didn't
recruit candidates.

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They didn't do voter
registrations,

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but they'd get
together and eat and

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drink and so they
didn't do much.

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But I decided I would run as

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a delegate for the
'92 Convention.

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Paul Tsongas was running
for president that year,

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and I really liked Paul Tsongas.

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He was a Democrat
from Massachusetts.

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And I went up to Cartersville,

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was where they had
the the caucus

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to go run as a delegate.

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And the process was that
you went into rooms,

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you split up in rooms

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by who it was that
you were supporting.

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So there were Clinton people in

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one room and there were
Tsongas people in one room,

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and there were a couple
other candidates

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that had people supporting them,

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and I can't even remember
who they are now.

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But I was in the Tsongas room,

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and each person got
the opportunity.

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That wanted to be a delegate,

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got the opportunity
to make a speech,

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and then the people that
were there voted on you.

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And the number of delegates

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picked for each person
who was running was

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based on the support

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that that person had gotten

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proportionately in the
primaries in Georgia.

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So Paul Tsongas got a number
of delegates based on

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what proportion of the primary
vote he got in Georgia.

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And I was one of three
Tsongas delegates.

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So I was a delegate
to the convention.

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The convention was in New York.

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The host hotel in New York for

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the Georgia
Democratic delegation

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was the Helmsley Park Lane
across from Central Park,

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and the airfare and the hotel
rooms are very expensive.

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I got selected as delegate,

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and then I realized I
couldn't afford to go.

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And I raised a
little bit of money.

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There were groups of friends
in the community here.

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Some of them raised some money
and gave me money to go.

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But the Communication
Workers of America

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actually had scholarship
money available.

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I told the Democratic
Party that I was

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having trouble finding
money to go, and they said,

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the Communication Workers (CWA)

260
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,180
has got some scholarship money

261
00:11:35,180 --> 00:11:37,340
and let me give you
this phone number.

262
00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:40,760
And I think they gave
me $250 or $350.

263
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,770
They helped. David went with me.

264
00:11:45,770 --> 00:11:48,260
And David wasn't going

265
00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:49,280
to be able to get
in the convention.

266
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,340
I had credentials because
I was a delegate.

267
00:11:52,340 --> 00:11:55,560
We went to a friend of ours,

268
00:11:56,140 --> 00:11:59,075
Jack Pelham, he's the editor of

269
00:11:59,075 --> 00:12:03,170
Etcetera Magazine for most of
the time it was published.

270
00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:05,315
In fact, I'll see
him this evening,

271
00:12:05,315 --> 00:12:07,550
his other half's birthday
party is tonight.

272
00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:10,760
But we went to Jack and said,

273
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,045
would you fill out the
forms and list David

274
00:12:14,045 --> 00:12:18,650
as a reporter
representing Etcetera,

275
00:12:18,650 --> 00:12:20,345
so he can get press credentials?

276
00:12:20,345 --> 00:12:21,770
And so Jack said, sure,

277
00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:23,345
I'll do that for you and

278
00:12:23,345 --> 00:12:26,150
David filled out the
forms and submitted them,

279
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:27,380
and he got press credentials.

280
00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:29,840
So there were times where he
couldn't get on the floor,

281
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,850
but he got inside
the convention,

282
00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:33,980
and he got to go places I
couldn't go because he went

283
00:12:33,980 --> 00:12:37,040
into the press suite and he

284
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,470
could go to the little press
things that were going on

285
00:12:39,470 --> 00:12:40,760
and got to hang around with

286
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,260
the other reporters and stuff.

287
00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:51,170
There was a woman who
went as a delegate also,

288
00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:53,495
I can't think of what
her name is right now.

289
00:12:53,495 --> 00:12:55,250
She was a Clinton delegate.

290
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:56,945
And then we had
one other person,

291
00:12:56,945 --> 00:12:58,610
a guy named Eric Spivey,

292
00:12:58,610 --> 00:13:01,610
who was an alternate
delegate for Georgia.

293
00:13:01,610 --> 00:13:06,620
Eric, he already had
AIDS at that point,

294
00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:09,455
and he was really interested

295
00:13:09,455 --> 00:13:13,220
in bringing up
awareness about AIDS.

296
00:13:13,220 --> 00:13:14,990
And he was open about
the fact that he was

297
00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:17,660
an alternate delegate to the
convention and had AIDS,

298
00:13:17,660 --> 00:13:20,480
and that was the first there

299
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,825
was somebody here
given the timing,

300
00:13:23,825 --> 00:13:25,700
that wouldn't have
happened in the '60s or

301
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:27,380
the '70s because there
wasn't AIDS then.

302
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:32,090
But he was followed

303
00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:36,185
around by reporters from
CNN and from the networks

304
00:13:36,185 --> 00:13:38,255
a lot because he was there

305
00:13:38,255 --> 00:13:41,240
openly as someone with
AIDS trying to get

306
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,730
the entire convention
and the press and

307
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:45,260
the elected officials to pay

308
00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:47,780
more attention to
the AIDS crisis.

309
00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:52,100
He died not long after the
convention and those of us

310
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:56,110
that knew him thought that
he had run himself down,

311
00:13:56,110 --> 00:13:57,910
he's working so hard
in New York and

312
00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:00,760
didn't recover his
energy from that.

313
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,535
But attended the convention.

314
00:14:03,535 --> 00:14:05,110
Paul Tsongas asked me if I would

315
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:08,580
be one of his whips
at the convention.

316
00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:12,260
And I said, okay, I'll do that,

317
00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:13,490
and I got to have a seat on

318
00:14:13,490 --> 00:14:15,590
the aisle in our
delegation so that I

319
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:17,270
could get up and move
around when I needed

320
00:14:17,270 --> 00:14:18,980
to and go talk to other people.

321
00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:21,080
And there wasn't a lot

322
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,730
involved with being a
whip for him because he

323
00:14:22,730 --> 00:14:29,000
was obvious he wasn't
going to be the nominee.

324
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,270
But he still tried

325
00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:33,860
to get certain issues

326
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:35,300
that were important to
him on the platform.

327
00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:38,780
So we attended the
delegation meetings and

328
00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:40,490
the convention
sessions and went to

329
00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:42,395
the parties afterwards at night.

330
00:14:42,395 --> 00:14:45,500
But there was also that
the '92 Convention,

331
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,650
where Dick had been
one of the first,

332
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:50,240
if not the first openly gay

333
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,250
delegates at the
Convention in '88,

334
00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:54,980
and there were just
a few of them there,

335
00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:57,440
less than 10, I think.

336
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,405
There was a group probably
close to 130 of us,

337
00:15:02,405 --> 00:15:06,155
gay and lesbian delegates
at '92 Convention.

338
00:15:06,155 --> 00:15:09,290
So we had a separate
gay and lesbian caucus

339
00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:12,020
and Senator Ted Kennedy came and

340
00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:13,850
talked with us and some of

341
00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:18,140
the other candidates and
elected officials came,

342
00:15:18,140 --> 00:15:21,200
and they made sure they let us

343
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,580
know that they were
going to try to get

344
00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:24,200
some of the issues that
were important to us.

345
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,850
And we worked out a strategy

346
00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:27,740
about when we would
demonstrate on

347
00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:29,390
the delegation floor and

348
00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:31,100
what things that
we were going to

349
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:33,035
push for within our delegations.

350
00:15:33,035 --> 00:15:34,850
So that was something
we were doing too.

351
00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:37,560
And working again as insiders,

352
00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:41,960
something that
happened as it was on

353
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,155
the first night
that we were there.

354
00:15:45,155 --> 00:15:48,185
They had a welcome party
for the Georgia delegation,

355
00:15:48,185 --> 00:15:50,420
and the welcome
party was on one of

356
00:15:50,420 --> 00:15:53,585
the double decker ferry boat.

357
00:15:53,585 --> 00:15:56,210
They had food and a bar,

358
00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:58,070
buffet on one level and a band,

359
00:15:58,070 --> 00:15:59,840
and whatever, on
the other level.

360
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,970
And the whole
Georgia delegation,

361
00:16:01,970 --> 00:16:04,490
and all of our elected
officials from

362
00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:08,060
the Congress and
the senators from

363
00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:11,060
Georgia and the
governor and some of

364
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:12,890
the state elected officials

365
00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:14,540
who were there as part
of the delegation,

366
00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:16,760
we're all on this boat and
we went out and cruised

367
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,130
around the Statue of
Liberty and whatever.

368
00:16:19,130 --> 00:16:22,265
But there was talk already.

369
00:16:22,265 --> 00:16:23,780
One of the issues
that was important

370
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:25,280
to us was, of course,

371
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,720
AIDS was really important

372
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,180
and getting better treatment
for people with AIDS,

373
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:30,215
more money for research.

374
00:16:30,215 --> 00:16:34,580
But also doing away

375
00:16:34,580 --> 00:16:35,945
with the ban of

376
00:16:35,945 --> 00:16:38,165
gays and lesbians being able
to serve in the military.

377
00:16:38,165 --> 00:16:40,595
And Clinton had
already talked with

378
00:16:40,595 --> 00:16:41,990
gays and lesbians and he came

379
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:43,520
and talked with our caucus,

380
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,980
and said that he intended
to end the ban in

381
00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:47,270
the gays and lesbians
in military and it

382
00:16:47,270 --> 00:16:48,935
was already in the news.

383
00:16:48,935 --> 00:16:50,840
Sam Nunn, who, of course,

384
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,915
was there with our
delegation too,

385
00:16:53,915 --> 00:16:56,195
was the head of the Armed
Services Committee,

386
00:16:56,195 --> 00:16:57,890
and he came out
publicly and said,

387
00:16:57,890 --> 00:16:59,390
he didn't think that would work.

388
00:16:59,390 --> 00:17:01,400
And that he would
work on something,

389
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,010
and he had started talking
already about the "Don't ask,

390
00:17:04,010 --> 00:17:05,285
don't tell" policy,

391
00:17:05,285 --> 00:17:06,695
that he thought
that there was this

392
00:17:06,695 --> 00:17:07,970
middle ground that they could

393
00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:11,135
come up with where gays
and lesbians could serve.

394
00:17:11,135 --> 00:17:13,730
But they had to hide

395
00:17:13,730 --> 00:17:14,840
who they were and make sure

396
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,550
nobody knew they
were gay or lesbian.

397
00:17:16,550 --> 00:17:21,560
And so I took advantage
of us all being together,

398
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,590
and Sam Nunn was there on the
boat out cruising around.

399
00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:25,550
And while we were out cruising

400
00:17:25,550 --> 00:17:26,975
around the Statue of Liberty,

401
00:17:26,975 --> 00:17:28,670
I went up and asked
to talk with him

402
00:17:28,670 --> 00:17:31,040
and talked with him
about this plan of his,

403
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,840
this "Don't ask,
don't tell" policy,

404
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,335
and told him what a bad
idea I thought it was.

405
00:17:36,335 --> 00:17:38,090
I hadn't served in the military,

406
00:17:38,090 --> 00:17:41,360
but I heard all the time
about these honor codes in

407
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:43,670
the military and to

408
00:17:43,670 --> 00:17:46,010
ask people to lie
about who they were,

409
00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:48,665
to conceal who they
were, and hide,

410
00:17:48,665 --> 00:17:51,005
I said it was not only

411
00:17:51,005 --> 00:17:53,645
bad for those people
psychologically,

412
00:17:53,645 --> 00:17:55,160
but it was wrong,

413
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,510
and it wasn't consistent
with the code of ethics,

414
00:17:59,510 --> 00:18:01,385
of the different branches
of the military.

415
00:18:01,385 --> 00:18:03,980
And he just politely
listened and shook my hands,

416
00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:07,010
and thank you for your
ideas and that was that.

417
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:09,890
And of course, they
put the "Don't ask,

418
00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:12,245
don't tell" policy
into effect anyway.

419
00:18:12,245 --> 00:18:15,050
But the other thing

420
00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:17,435
I'll tell you about that
happened at the convention.

421
00:18:17,435 --> 00:18:19,775
I mentioned Eric Spivey,

422
00:18:19,775 --> 00:18:22,670
so this was an opportunity
to work as an insider and

423
00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:24,745
get to talk to Sam
Nunn and get to talk

424
00:18:24,745 --> 00:18:28,660
to the governor and get to
talk to some of the candidates

425
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:30,420
and some of the senators and

426
00:18:30,420 --> 00:18:33,200
congressional people
as an insider.

427
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,815
And instead of wearing
jeans and a ACT UP T-shirt,

428
00:18:37,815 --> 00:18:40,600
I was in my suit and
tie the whole time.

429
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,220
There was a heat wave during
the convention in New York,

430
00:18:44,220 --> 00:18:46,400
which is not well
air conditioned.

431
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,100
And it was miserably hot.

432
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,560
We were just soaking a
good part of the time.

433
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,940
But one of the things that was

434
00:18:53,940 --> 00:18:56,600
done by the people
outside the convention,

435
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,280
and the gay and lesbian caucus

436
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,460
came out of the
convention and joined in,

437
00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:03,100
and it was purposely scheduled
so it wouldn't conflict

438
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:04,280
with the time when we needed to

439
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:05,950
be on the convention floor,

440
00:19:05,950 --> 00:19:10,780
was a march outside
the convention center,

441
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:12,345
Madison Square Garden,

442
00:19:12,345 --> 00:19:15,420
and marched down through

443
00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:17,200
one of the big
streets in New York,

444
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,145
calling for, there
was a list of things,

445
00:19:22,145 --> 00:19:23,520
demands, calling for better

446
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,165
treatment for people with AIDS.

447
00:19:25,165 --> 00:19:31,580
And I remember, Eric Spivey
had already gotten tired,

448
00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:36,095
and he and Whoopi
Goldberg led the parade.

449
00:19:36,095 --> 00:19:38,900
And she was pushing him
along at his wheelchair.

450
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:40,780
He couldn't walk so well at

451
00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:42,960
that point because he
was already exhausted.

452
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,660
But those of us from the
Georgia delegation got to walk

453
00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:48,880
at the front of
the demonstration

454
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,170
with him and Whoopi Goldberg.

455
00:19:54,370 --> 00:19:57,670
As I said, he died
not long after that,

456
00:19:57,670 --> 00:20:00,530
I remember how much energy

457
00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:03,200
he put into all of that
while he was there.

458
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,730
And he accomplished
what he wanted to.

459
00:20:05,730 --> 00:20:07,330
He got tremendous amount of

460
00:20:07,330 --> 00:20:11,010
press coverage and drew a
lot of attention that I

461
00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:14,280
think helped make AIDS

462
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,830
research and better treatment
for people with AIDS.

463
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:19,050
It actually helped get it

464
00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:21,345
into the Democratic
Party platform.

465
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:26,985
So that's what I can tell you
about the two conventions.

466
00:20:26,985 --> 00:20:29,775
>> Going back to the
'88 Convention and

467
00:20:29,775 --> 00:20:32,050
the large differences
between the number of

468
00:20:32,050 --> 00:20:33,290
gay delegates and

469
00:20:33,290 --> 00:20:35,155
the activism outside
of the convention,

470
00:20:35,155 --> 00:20:36,790
did you feel your voices were

471
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:39,460
heard at that time
as an activist?

472
00:20:39,540 --> 00:20:43,490
>> That's a good question.

473
00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:46,855
There's two reasons
why you demonstrate.

474
00:20:46,855 --> 00:20:50,080
One of them is you want
people to hear your voice.

475
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,690
But you also sometimes
you demonstrate

476
00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:55,465
because it's a matter of

477
00:20:55,465 --> 00:20:57,310
self-respect and dignity that

478
00:20:57,310 --> 00:20:58,810
you don't just sit quietly and

479
00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:02,890
suffer and say nothing when
you're not treated properly.

480
00:21:02,890 --> 00:21:07,150
And so whether
you're heard or not,

481
00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:09,010
there's still
something you get out

482
00:21:09,010 --> 00:21:11,180
of, and it's very exciting.

483
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,550
I get to bring some
clinics with me today.

484
00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:19,360
[LAUGHTER] There's a sense

485
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,960
of satisfaction that
comes from demonstrating.

486
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,760
We hoped we were hard,

487
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,855
and what happens at that
time, the 88 convention,

488
00:21:28,855 --> 00:21:31,930
we were the official
demonstration area was right

489
00:21:31,930 --> 00:21:33,790
where the delegates
had to come and

490
00:21:33,790 --> 00:21:35,845
line up with their credentials
to go through security.

491
00:21:35,845 --> 00:21:37,240
So they saw us.

492
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,445
The elected officials and the
senators and congressmen,

493
00:21:42,445 --> 00:21:44,770
they had a back door somewhere
they came in through,

494
00:21:44,770 --> 00:21:46,060
and they didn't see
us, but the press

495
00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:48,100
saw us and the delegate saw us.

496
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:51,265
What happened over the years,

497
00:21:51,265 --> 00:21:55,965
and you'll see it now is
that big events like that,

498
00:21:55,965 --> 00:21:59,940
they have to give people
their First Amendment rights,

499
00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:02,195
and they have to allow
people to demonstrate.

500
00:22:02,195 --> 00:22:04,270
But a lot of places,

501
00:22:04,270 --> 00:22:06,400
if they don't mind
the demonstrators,

502
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,785
they may treat them very well.

503
00:22:08,785 --> 00:22:10,540
But if they don't
really like them,

504
00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:12,730
and they're just
begrudgingly giving them

505
00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:13,810
their First Amendment rights and

506
00:22:13,810 --> 00:22:15,430
giving them a place
to demonstrate,

507
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:17,620
what they do at a lot
of things nowadays is

508
00:22:17,620 --> 00:22:19,615
they designate a
free speech area,

509
00:22:19,615 --> 00:22:21,295
and they put it off
the site somewhere

510
00:22:21,295 --> 00:22:24,235
where the people that they
want to see don't see them.

511
00:22:24,235 --> 00:22:27,250
But those demonstrations,
the audience that you

512
00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:30,040
wanted to target was
both the delegates,

513
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,810
the elected officials, and

514
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:34,060
also the media who were
going to then put it out

515
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:36,610
over the hundreds and hundreds

516
00:22:36,610 --> 00:22:38,230
of media people there
from all over the world.

517
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:42,595
And we did get in the
news and in the media.

518
00:22:42,595 --> 00:22:45,040
And the parade I mentioned

519
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,305
with the fact that

520
00:22:47,305 --> 00:22:50,200
Whoopi Goldberg and there were
some other Hollywood stars

521
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,690
that were already starting
to talk about AIDS and

522
00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:55,210
were in the parade and that

523
00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:59,320
Eric he was an
alternate delegate

524
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,940
at the convention and open

525
00:23:00,940 --> 00:23:02,440
about the fact that he had AIDS.

526
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,380
That got tremendous coverage and

527
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:09,680
really drew a lot of
attention to the AIDS crisis.

528
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:13,480
>> So Jon, can you talk
a little bit more about

529
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,960
the proposed DS hotel
policy with Sam Nunn?

530
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,630
>> So there was that
initial conversation

531
00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:20,935
I had, and of course,

532
00:23:20,935 --> 00:23:23,700
they was a big topic
of discussion among

533
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,370
gay lesbian groups
here in Atlanta and

534
00:23:26,370 --> 00:23:28,410
other places and with
Sam Nunn being head of

535
00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:31,830
the Armed Service Committee
and our Georgia senator,

536
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:33,225
one of our Georgia senators,

537
00:23:33,225 --> 00:23:40,915
we felt like we had to take
some lead in fighting that.

538
00:23:40,915 --> 00:23:42,685
There was a group here,

539
00:23:42,685 --> 00:23:45,400
a gay and lesbian service
members group that formed.

540
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,880
A guy named Danny Ingram
was the head of the group.

541
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,850
And they did all
kinds of things.

542
00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:54,940
But there was some
protests also that

543
00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:58,180
we had after the
policy was announced,

544
00:23:58,180 --> 00:24:02,065
and then it was passed in
Congress and put into place.

545
00:24:02,065 --> 00:24:04,900
Sam Nunn had offices both
in Washington DC and

546
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,855
he had his office in
Downtown Atlanta.

547
00:24:07,855 --> 00:24:11,200
And we had stickers
that said, "Don't ask,

548
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,910
don't tell," and it had
the little red circle with

549
00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:14,740
the line through it
superimposed over,

550
00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:16,090
don't ask, don't tell.

551
00:24:16,090 --> 00:24:19,030
Made and there was a group of us

552
00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:22,450
that went and got
military haircuts,

553
00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:24,610
and we bought Army surplus store

554
00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:26,350
and got uniforms and boots,

555
00:24:26,350 --> 00:24:29,275
and we got dog tags
made and everything.

556
00:24:29,275 --> 00:24:31,255
And then there were real

557
00:24:31,255 --> 00:24:32,860
people who had been
in the service.

558
00:24:32,860 --> 00:24:35,710
Their uniforms, and we had

559
00:24:35,710 --> 00:24:40,640
a protest outside of his
office the day after.

560
00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:43,690
Within a couple of days after

561
00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:46,585
the bill was signed into law.

562
00:24:46,585 --> 00:24:49,450
Protesting, they don't
ask, don't tell policy.

563
00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:51,535
And we started the protest.

564
00:24:51,535 --> 00:24:53,140
We went inside the office.

565
00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:54,610
There was no security there,

566
00:24:54,610 --> 00:24:58,660
and we didn't get
arrested for vandalism,

567
00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:01,390
but we put the little stickers
we had made everywhere.

568
00:25:01,390 --> 00:25:02,440
There were on walls,

569
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,390
and on the windows,
on the chairs,

570
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:06,340
and the few people that were

571
00:25:06,340 --> 00:25:09,180
inside were caught off
guard and surprised,

572
00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:10,890
and they didn't know
what to do with us.

573
00:25:10,890 --> 00:25:15,885
And then we went back
outside and had our protest.

574
00:25:15,885 --> 00:25:20,910
They was a pretty angry
protest this particular one.

575
00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:23,920
I think I'm not sure who it

576
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,810
was that put together

577
00:25:25,810 --> 00:25:27,850
the protests that was
sort of leading it.

578
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:31,000
But one of the chances
was don't ask,

579
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,225
don't tell Sam Nunn can go to.

580
00:25:34,225 --> 00:25:37,165
So it was an angry protest.

581
00:25:37,165 --> 00:25:39,640
But there were ongoing efforts

582
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,935
in the group that
Danny Ingram was

583
00:25:41,935 --> 00:25:44,920
head of was involved

584
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,810
with them all the way
up until the repeal.

585
00:25:46,810 --> 00:25:48,160
They don't ask,
don't tell policy

586
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,320
that went to meetings
in Washington,

587
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,180
and there were
letter-writing campaigns to

588
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:55,420
the members of
Congress and Senators

589
00:25:55,420 --> 00:26:01,035
and if you look at any
of the video footage,

590
00:26:01,035 --> 00:26:03,225
the Gay Pride
parades in Atlanta,

591
00:26:03,225 --> 00:26:08,050
that group let off from the
point where the don't ask,

592
00:26:08,050 --> 00:26:10,330
don't tell policy
was put into place.

593
00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:15,100
The gay lesbian service
members organization would put

594
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:17,350
on their uniforms and they
were the color guard leading

595
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:19,975
off the Gay Pride parade
every year from then on.

596
00:26:19,975 --> 00:26:23,590
So my friend Joanna,

597
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:24,760
I mentioned to you earlier,

598
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,260
that's not on video,

599
00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:27,850
who's the forensic illustrator.

600
00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:29,770
She served in the Marines,

601
00:26:29,770 --> 00:26:33,770
and she carried the Marine
flag in the color guard.

602
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,270
>> Searching gears a
little bit, can you talk

603
00:26:37,270 --> 00:26:38,920
about your experience
in attending

604
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,965
the Atlanta Conference of
Christian Coalition organizers

605
00:26:41,965 --> 00:26:44,560
in conjunction with people
for the American Way?

606
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,540
>> During the activities
in connection with

607
00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:53,830
the Cobb County Anti-Gay
Resolution, there was support.

608
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:58,105
We got support from
the Georgia ACLU,

609
00:26:58,105 --> 00:27:00,010
and we got support from

610
00:27:00,010 --> 00:27:02,830
the National Organization
for People for American Way.

611
00:27:02,830 --> 00:27:09,475
They actually sent
one of the staff

612
00:27:09,475 --> 00:27:11,170
to help work with us in

613
00:27:11,170 --> 00:27:12,760
the staff person when

614
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,570
the Cobb County Commission had

615
00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:20,785
public testimony hearings about
killing the arts funding,

616
00:27:20,785 --> 00:27:25,285
she spoke and gave some of
the public hearing testimony.

617
00:27:25,285 --> 00:27:26,830
But I got to know
some of the people

618
00:27:26,830 --> 00:27:30,535
from American Way
then because of that.

619
00:27:30,535 --> 00:27:33,055
They invited me later

620
00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:37,540
to come up to their
office in Washington DC,

621
00:27:37,540 --> 00:27:38,980
and they brought
activists in from

622
00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:40,810
other cities and states.

623
00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:42,820
This kind of effort that

624
00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:45,550
the Christian Coalition
had a meeting here,

625
00:27:45,550 --> 00:27:47,020
and this Anti-Gay Resolution

626
00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:49,420
happened at the Cobb
County Commission was

627
00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:50,860
a new tactic that was

628
00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:53,740
being pushed by the
Christian Coalition,

629
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:55,240
and they were trying
to get similar things

630
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,490
happen in other places
in the country.

631
00:27:57,490 --> 00:27:59,620
And so they asked me to
come in and talk about

632
00:27:59,620 --> 00:28:02,035
what had happened
in Cobb County and

633
00:28:02,035 --> 00:28:04,210
were trying to put
it into right of

634
00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:05,710
an overall strategy and

635
00:28:05,710 --> 00:28:07,915
talk about how to
defend against it.

636
00:28:07,915 --> 00:28:12,730
So it was in early in
some point in 1994,

637
00:28:12,730 --> 00:28:13,795
and I can't remember the date.

638
00:28:13,795 --> 00:28:17,140
I got a call from the
People of American Way,

639
00:28:17,140 --> 00:28:17,890
and they said that

640
00:28:17,890 --> 00:28:19,570
the Christian Coalition
was going to have

641
00:28:19,570 --> 00:28:24,115
their annual
grassroots organizer

642
00:28:24,115 --> 00:28:27,295
conference and development
conference here in Atlanta.

643
00:28:27,295 --> 00:28:29,500
It was a conference where they

644
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,690
had training sessions
for people who were

645
00:28:31,690 --> 00:28:33,820
Christian Coalition
members who wanted to

646
00:28:33,820 --> 00:28:36,820
learn how to be political
activists and how to be

647
00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:40,030
involved in running
campaigns and

648
00:28:40,030 --> 00:28:43,360
running for office and
influencing political officials.

649
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,310
So as a whole series

650
00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:47,545
of workshops that
went on for two days.

651
00:28:47,545 --> 00:28:49,990
So they told us that
this was happening.

652
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:53,695
They told me it was happening
and said that they wondered

653
00:28:53,695 --> 00:28:55,450
if I would be willing to go

654
00:28:55,450 --> 00:28:57,535
to the Christian
Coalition conference,

655
00:28:57,535 --> 00:29:00,190
sign up, that they
would pay my way and

656
00:29:00,190 --> 00:29:01,570
go and attend and document

657
00:29:01,570 --> 00:29:03,145
what was going on
at the conference.

658
00:29:03,145 --> 00:29:04,960
They had some concern that there

659
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,240
were things that the
Christian Coalition,

660
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,000
which was a 501 (c)
(3) non-profitization,

661
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,890
and the political activity
they're allowed to

662
00:29:11,890 --> 00:29:14,005
engage in and political
activity they're not.

663
00:29:14,005 --> 00:29:18,115
They had some idea
that there were

664
00:29:18,115 --> 00:29:22,060
some violations of the law
that they were engaged in,

665
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:23,110
and they wanted to see if they

666
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:24,490
could get some evidence of that.

667
00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:26,860
But they also wanted to
get all their materials,

668
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:27,940
the training materials that they

669
00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:29,275
were giving out to activists.

670
00:29:29,275 --> 00:29:32,860
And they told me that I could

671
00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:34,750
go in my own name or I could

672
00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:36,850
use an assumed identity
if I wanted to.

673
00:29:36,850 --> 00:29:38,470
You know that didn't
make any difference,

674
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:42,550
but they wanted me to just
seem like I fit in there,

675
00:29:42,550 --> 00:29:46,570
and they had a woman
who was willing to go,

676
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:48,265
and the two of us
could go as a couple

677
00:29:48,265 --> 00:29:50,350
so that we look like
we were this male,

678
00:29:50,350 --> 00:29:51,400
female couple to fit in,

679
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,215
and it was Cecile Richards.

680
00:29:53,215 --> 00:29:55,900
Cecile was the daughter
of Ann Richards,

681
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,205
been the governor of Texas.

682
00:29:57,205 --> 00:30:00,805
So Cecile is now the national
head of Planned Parenthood.

683
00:30:00,805 --> 00:30:03,985
And so I agreed and

684
00:30:03,985 --> 00:30:07,600
Cecile and I had dinner the
night before the conference.

685
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,295
She came in from Texas,

686
00:30:09,295 --> 00:30:12,130
and we got to know each
other a little bit.

687
00:30:12,130 --> 00:30:14,320
And then we went
together as a couple to

688
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,270
the Christian
Coalition Conference

689
00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:17,845
and attended the conference,

690
00:30:17,845 --> 00:30:20,590
got their materials,
and took notes,

691
00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:22,420
and we turned all the
information over to

692
00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:24,850
the people from American
Way afterwards for them

693
00:30:24,850 --> 00:30:26,410
to use to work with

694
00:30:26,410 --> 00:30:28,090
other organizations to look

695
00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:30,175
through the materials and
what they were doing.

696
00:30:30,175 --> 00:30:35,500
So it was kind of
fun. [LAUGHTER]

697
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,620
>> Talk about your experience
with David hosting

698
00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:40,000
the gay pride event in

699
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,670
ENCO County and the organization
that resulted from it.

700
00:30:47,010 --> 00:30:49,150
>> We were involved with

701
00:30:49,150 --> 00:30:50,980
gay pride, and
David, especially,

702
00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:53,020
gay pride was a big deal to him,

703
00:30:53,020 --> 00:30:54,760
and we'll tell you
more about that later.

704
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,810
But we decided to have
a gay pride event.

705
00:30:58,810 --> 00:31:02,080
There was an official calendar
in the Southern Voice.

706
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,050
We put out for gay
pride each year,

707
00:31:05,050 --> 00:31:07,390
and Southern Voice published it,

708
00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:08,890
and then may have
put it in some of

709
00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:10,900
the other publications, too.

710
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:12,745
But we asked to have

711
00:31:12,745 --> 00:31:17,530
a Gay Pride Cobb County
Gay Pride Potluck

712
00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:19,165
put on the official calendar,

713
00:31:19,165 --> 00:31:21,115
open to anybody who
wanted to attend,

714
00:31:21,115 --> 00:31:24,925
and had our phone number
for contact information.

715
00:31:24,925 --> 00:31:26,815
And it was going to be the first

716
00:31:26,815 --> 00:31:28,405
Cobb County Gay Pride event.

717
00:31:28,405 --> 00:31:32,950
So we got the refreshments,

718
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:34,900
things for people to drink,

719
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:36,550
but we asked people to bring

720
00:31:36,550 --> 00:31:38,905
food to share, so
potluck basically.

721
00:31:38,905 --> 00:31:42,235
And we had no idea how many
people were going to come

722
00:31:42,235 --> 00:31:46,180
or we just knew a few other
people in Cobb County.

723
00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:49,960
And this was prior to the
Cobb County NGA stuff.

724
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,350
So we hadn't met yet all these
people who we met through

725
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:55,720
the Cobb County NGA initiative

726
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,580
and the Cop Citizens Coalition.

727
00:31:57,580 --> 00:32:01,160
So the day of the event,

728
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,715
actually, it's an evening.

729
00:32:02,715 --> 00:32:06,660
We had it on a
Sunday the weekend

730
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:09,925
before or maybe it
was a Saturday,

731
00:32:09,925 --> 00:32:12,400
the weekend before gay pride.

732
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,530
So there was a week long of

733
00:32:14,530 --> 00:32:16,930
different events
in the calendar.

734
00:32:16,930 --> 00:32:21,295
And we said that the
event was going to be,

735
00:32:21,295 --> 00:32:24,430
I think four in the afternoon

736
00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:27,340
till eight at night or
something like that.

737
00:32:27,340 --> 00:32:29,380
So these people
came to our house,

738
00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:32,710
and it was a pretty good
sized group of people.

739
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:34,720
It seems like it was probably

740
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,030
30-40 people, I don't remember,

741
00:32:37,030 --> 00:32:38,575
but both men and women

742
00:32:38,575 --> 00:32:42,235
and some people
individuals, some couples.

743
00:32:42,235 --> 00:32:44,965
But they came and we had

744
00:32:44,965 --> 00:32:46,270
a little pollic
dinner and people

745
00:32:46,270 --> 00:32:48,610
socialized and drank and talked.

746
00:32:48,610 --> 00:32:52,880
And people that came

747
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,250
they were excited to meet

748
00:32:57,250 --> 00:32:59,215
other gays and lesbians
in Cobb County.

749
00:32:59,215 --> 00:33:02,290
Gays and lesbians were mostly
invisible at Cobb County,

750
00:33:02,290 --> 00:33:05,530
and people sometimes knew

751
00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:07,570
other people in Cobb
County but not very many.

752
00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:09,850
And there weren't any gay bars,

753
00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:12,850
there weren't any gay
organizations in Cobb County,

754
00:33:12,850 --> 00:33:16,600
and there was just a lot of
energy and enthusiasm around.

755
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,540
Here's this big group of gay
and lesbian people we met.

756
00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:21,790
And before the evening was over,

757
00:33:21,790 --> 00:33:25,000
the decision was made,

758
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,120
and this evening which was
supposed to go till 8:00 went

759
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,240
till early after midnight.

760
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,545
It went pretty long.

761
00:33:32,545 --> 00:33:34,570
We finally had to say,
we got to go to sleep

762
00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:38,180
and and send people
on their way.

763
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,010
Just in the conversation
with everybody,

764
00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:47,590
it just came up that everybody
wanted to do this again.

765
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:51,145
And one of the persons
who had attended they

766
00:33:51,145 --> 00:33:52,300
volunteered that they would

767
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,000
have something the next
month at their house.

768
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,910
And we made a list for
everybody that was

769
00:33:57,910 --> 00:34:01,000
interested in being part
of it and being contacted.

770
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,015
We took down names and phone
numbers and addresses.

771
00:34:04,015 --> 00:34:08,140
And with this organization,

772
00:34:08,140 --> 00:34:11,515
it was a very loose organization

773
00:34:11,515 --> 00:34:15,850
popped up where the next
time we had over 100 people.

774
00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:17,920
And then somebody else
volunteered to have one.

775
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,140
And then and it just kept
getting bigger and bigger.

776
00:34:20,140 --> 00:34:23,935
And we had four or five of
these monthly gatherings.

777
00:34:23,935 --> 00:34:26,320
The biggest one someone had is

778
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,880
a garden party or

779
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,470
yard party, and they
had a swimming pool,

780
00:34:29,470 --> 00:34:31,240
told people they could
swim if they wanted to

781
00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:34,000
and lived in Astel, I think,

782
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,890
and had a huge backyard,

783
00:34:35,890 --> 00:34:39,775
and there was probably
4-500 people there.

784
00:34:39,775 --> 00:34:44,140
It was huge. You had to park
blocks away to get there.

785
00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:46,225
I'm sure the neighbors
didn't like it.

786
00:34:46,225 --> 00:34:50,620
But so we had this
gigantic group that formed

787
00:34:50,620 --> 00:34:55,045
and realized there's all
these other people here.

788
00:34:55,045 --> 00:34:57,550
At the organization,
I think I talked

789
00:34:57,550 --> 00:35:00,625
about there's someone
who last time we talked,

790
00:35:00,625 --> 00:35:04,825
we were getting close
to election time,

791
00:35:04,825 --> 00:35:10,360
and somebody had an
acquaintance or friends,

792
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,740
someone they knew
who was running for

793
00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:13,720
office who they thought was gay

794
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:17,380
friendly and brought them
to one of the gatherings.

795
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:22,785
And this was a social
networking group.

796
00:35:22,785 --> 00:35:24,060
It wasn't a political group.

797
00:35:24,060 --> 00:35:26,800
And gay and lesbian people
just like everybody else,

798
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,615
most of them are political.

799
00:35:28,615 --> 00:35:30,040
And at that time,

800
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,615
most of them were closeted.

801
00:35:31,615 --> 00:35:33,160
And there were people who

802
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,780
were horrified that
there was somebody who

803
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:36,235
running for office who would be

804
00:35:36,235 --> 00:35:38,500
potentially a public official

805
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:40,600
and could have seen our lists

806
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,450
of people that were
members in names,

807
00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:45,250
and there were people who
were scared about that,

808
00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:49,645
and it ended up actually causing
the group to fall apart.

809
00:35:49,645 --> 00:35:52,270
People got angry
that that someone

810
00:35:52,270 --> 00:35:56,215
had brought this
person there and there

811
00:35:56,215 --> 00:36:01,855
the loose organization that was

812
00:36:01,855 --> 00:36:04,390
born and grew very large quickly

813
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:07,780
and disintegrated all
within about seven months.

814
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:10,165
>> And what year was that?

815
00:36:10,165 --> 00:36:11,950
>> I think it was 1994.

816
00:36:11,950 --> 00:36:14,730
>> 1994, so it was after
the NGA resolution?

817
00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:20,095
>> Yes. No, wait a minute.

818
00:36:20,095 --> 00:36:22,090
It was not after
the NGA resolution,

819
00:36:22,090 --> 00:36:23,905
it was before the
NGA resolution.

820
00:36:23,905 --> 00:36:32,960
It had to be probably 1992
then if it was election time.

821
00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:36,250
>> Can you talk
about the change in

822
00:36:36,250 --> 00:36:37,720
Pride celebrations in Atlanta,

823
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,000
from a small celebration
to a large one?

824
00:36:43,590 --> 00:36:53,230
>> The first pride that I
went to was probably in 1986,

825
00:36:53,230 --> 00:36:55,940
maybe '86 or '87.

826
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,950
It was a fairly small thing
that we had a Pride parade,

827
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:07,105
and the pride parade was
mostly people with signs,

828
00:37:07,105 --> 00:37:08,530
some had signs some didn't,

829
00:37:08,530 --> 00:37:10,000
but all got together in

830
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,920
a group in the street and
marched down the street.

831
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,330
And there weren't floats.

832
00:37:13,330 --> 00:37:15,805
There weren't marching bands.

833
00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:19,210
There were a few groups that

834
00:37:19,210 --> 00:37:21,760
had banners that were
organized groups.

835
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,400
But it was mostly just
people who wanted to get

836
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,190
out and have gay and
lesbian people be visible.

837
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:30,100
So we had this pride
parade and we'd march down

838
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:31,780
the street down
Peach Street Street

839
00:37:31,780 --> 00:37:33,190
and into Piedmont Park,

840
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:34,990
and then there was a
little stage set up

841
00:37:34,990 --> 00:37:39,130
and they had a sound
system and some speeches,

842
00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:41,500
and they had a DJ that
played some music.

843
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:49,030
And the festival would end
with a drag show on the stage.

844
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:53,230
Drag is part of
Southern gay life,

845
00:37:53,230 --> 00:37:55,600
so they would have a drag show
at the end of the evening.

846
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,025
But there would be
anywhere 900-1200,

847
00:38:00,025 --> 00:38:03,535
1300, maybe in a big
year 1,500 people.

848
00:38:03,535 --> 00:38:05,140
An exception to that, it was

849
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:07,630
before I was
involved in a Pride,

850
00:38:07,630 --> 00:38:09,700
but I'd heard about it,

851
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:15,190
was when Anita Bryant
in Florida started

852
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:17,710
her crusade against gays and

853
00:38:17,710 --> 00:38:21,790
lesbians and she
came to Atlanta.

854
00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:24,640
It had been in Atlanta, and
it made a lot of people mad.

855
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:25,990
And I heard that they had close

856
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:27,580
to 5,000 people that year.

857
00:38:27,580 --> 00:38:30,145
But the pride was fairly small,

858
00:38:30,145 --> 00:38:33,385
and there was a Pride committee
that organized Pride,

859
00:38:33,385 --> 00:38:35,275
and it was a group of buddies.

860
00:38:35,275 --> 00:38:36,520
There was these guys,

861
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,845
there was maybe a
half dozen of them.

862
00:38:38,845 --> 00:38:41,470
The main person was a
guy named Dale Biggers.

863
00:38:41,470 --> 00:38:44,230
And they all worked at bars.

864
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:46,135
They were all bartenders or

865
00:38:46,135 --> 00:38:49,345
bar managers in gay and
lesbian bars in Atlanta.

866
00:38:49,345 --> 00:38:51,130
And at some point,

867
00:38:51,130 --> 00:38:54,325
they had decided Atlanta
should have gay pride,

868
00:38:54,325 --> 00:38:57,325
and they started
organizing gay pride.

869
00:38:57,325 --> 00:39:00,470
So it was fairly small.

870
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:05,890
I remember we had

871
00:39:05,890 --> 00:39:08,770
the volleyball that was part
of the Gay Pride one year,

872
00:39:08,770 --> 00:39:10,750
and this is where I came out

873
00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:13,180
on television with the
television people.

874
00:39:13,180 --> 00:39:17,290
But David and I attended
the pride together,

875
00:39:17,290 --> 00:39:18,685
I had two years,

876
00:39:18,685 --> 00:39:21,355
and David had been
in marching band.

877
00:39:21,355 --> 00:39:24,240
David Greer in marching
band in high school,

878
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,040
and he thought the parade
should be more than

879
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,390
just a bunch of people walking

880
00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:28,815
down the street with signs.

881
00:39:28,815 --> 00:39:30,540
He thought we needed
to have floats,

882
00:39:30,540 --> 00:39:35,620
and we need to have
marching bands.

883
00:39:37,020 --> 00:39:39,520
He liked fireworks.
He went to see

884
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,640
fireworks at the end of the
evening after the drag show.

885
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:48,115
And he contacted the
Pride Committee.

886
00:39:48,115 --> 00:39:50,290
And he said I want to
come to your meetings.

887
00:39:50,290 --> 00:39:51,640
I have some ideas about Pride.

888
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,875
And they say, sure, we'll
let you know when it is.

889
00:39:53,875 --> 00:39:56,110
And they wouldn't contact him.

890
00:39:56,110 --> 00:39:59,530
And he tried again and
they wouldn't contact him.

891
00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:04,720
He'd try again and they
figured out after a while that

892
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:10,140
they didn't want other
people getting involved,

893
00:40:10,140 --> 00:40:11,760
that they liked being able

894
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,130
to do what they wanted
to do and control it.

895
00:40:14,130 --> 00:40:18,700
So David decided he

896
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,785
would just organize his
own Pride committee.

897
00:40:20,785 --> 00:40:25,345
And he did a press
release and announced,

898
00:40:25,345 --> 00:40:27,130
it got a meeting space at one of

899
00:40:27,130 --> 00:40:28,915
the public library
meeting rooms,

900
00:40:28,915 --> 00:40:30,130
and announced that

901
00:40:30,130 --> 00:40:32,410
the Pride committee
would be expanding,

902
00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:33,940
and they were looking for

903
00:40:33,940 --> 00:40:36,310
new activities to enlarge
pride and make it a

904
00:40:36,310 --> 00:40:38,980
bigger celebration and invite

905
00:40:38,980 --> 00:40:40,930
anybody who wanted to
participate to come,

906
00:40:40,930 --> 00:40:43,870
and he scheduled a meeting of

907
00:40:43,870 --> 00:40:47,845
the Pride committee and then
called these guys and said,

908
00:40:47,845 --> 00:40:49,600
you're welcome to
come if you'd like.

909
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,435
And they came and
they were angry.

910
00:40:52,435 --> 00:40:55,510
And I think initially came with

911
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:59,470
the idea of telling him,
you don't get to do this.

912
00:40:59,470 --> 00:41:02,420
You're not the pride committee,
put him in his place.

913
00:41:02,420 --> 00:41:05,940
But there was all these other
people that were there.

914
00:41:05,940 --> 00:41:08,670
There was 50 or 60 people
who wanted to be part of

915
00:41:08,670 --> 00:41:09,960
the pride committee
and wanted to

916
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,625
see it become a bigger activity.

917
00:41:11,625 --> 00:41:14,100
And I think they saw this
big group of people,

918
00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:17,995
and they backed off and
they gave in and said,

919
00:41:17,995 --> 00:41:22,190
maybe we should let other
people get involved.

920
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:27,235
And so from that meeting,

921
00:41:27,235 --> 00:41:30,520
the Pride committee got bigger
and they started talking

922
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:31,930
about other events
they could have at

923
00:41:31,930 --> 00:41:34,015
Pride and how could
they fund those events.

924
00:41:34,015 --> 00:41:36,625
And Pride went from
the early days.

925
00:41:36,625 --> 00:41:42,720
It was a parade and usually
on a Saturday or Sunday,

926
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:44,610
used to always be the third week

927
00:41:44,610 --> 00:41:50,620
in June to commemorate
the Stonewall riots.

928
00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:56,490
It's always hot. But
it would just be

929
00:41:56,490 --> 00:42:00,300
this parade and then activities

930
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,250
in the park and the drag
show, and that was it.

931
00:42:02,250 --> 00:42:04,110
It was all a single
day event that went

932
00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:06,525
from noon until a
little bit after dark.

933
00:42:06,525 --> 00:42:11,700
So the plans were made to
make it a two day event,

934
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:13,320
to have a Saturday
and a Sunday and

935
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,880
have a festival to go along

936
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,380
with it so that they
would have booths

937
00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:17,970
and organizations
could be there,

938
00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:21,315
and there would be food

939
00:42:21,315 --> 00:42:24,915
and to have more
entertainment and fireworks.

940
00:42:24,915 --> 00:42:29,670
And also to announce
that the parade that

941
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:32,070
they wanted people to apply

942
00:42:32,070 --> 00:42:34,830
to inner floats and
bands in the parade.

943
00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:42,825
So the first year that Pride
after this enlargement,

944
00:42:42,825 --> 00:42:45,465
the Pride committee and
more people got involved,

945
00:42:45,465 --> 00:42:49,800
we had 25,000 people
that came to Pride.

946
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,660
So we went from this 900 or
1500 people to 25,000 people,

947
00:42:54,660 --> 00:42:58,770
and it really happened
largely by getting

948
00:42:58,770 --> 00:43:00,750
more people involved
and giving more people

949
00:43:00,750 --> 00:43:04,410
a voice in what was going
on and enlarging the event.

950
00:43:04,410 --> 00:43:08,250
That happened also to be
the same year that we

951
00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:12,270
ended up on the cover
of the Atlanta paper.

952
00:43:12,270 --> 00:43:15,210
I don't know if the bigger

953
00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:17,400
Pride activity was
part of the reason

954
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,620
the Journal Constitution
decided to run

955
00:43:19,620 --> 00:43:22,125
this big series about the
gay community in Atlanta,

956
00:43:22,125 --> 00:43:26,910
or it was just the
growing presence

957
00:43:26,910 --> 00:43:30,270
of gay lesbian
political activities,

958
00:43:30,270 --> 00:43:31,860
both protests but also

959
00:43:31,860 --> 00:43:34,005
some mainstream activities and

960
00:43:34,005 --> 00:43:35,910
the issues of concern
the gayism community.

961
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:38,490
But that probably also

962
00:43:38,490 --> 00:43:42,000
contributed to a larger
number of people.

963
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,060
But Pride went 25,000
people that year,

964
00:43:45,060 --> 00:43:46,080
and I think the next year,

965
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,430
it was over 30,000.

966
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:49,650
And now, typically,

967
00:43:49,650 --> 00:43:52,560
there's 300,000 people that
come to Pride in Atlanta.

968
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:58,620
>> What year was
that? [OVERLAPPING].

969
00:43:58,620 --> 00:44:01,305
>> Ninety one.
That sounds right.

970
00:44:01,305 --> 00:44:08,180
So it was probably in 1990
after Pride had happened,

971
00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:11,660
it was probably in
the winter of 1990,

972
00:44:11,660 --> 00:44:15,485
I would guess was probably
when David was organizing

973
00:44:15,485 --> 00:44:17,660
when he decided he
was going to get

974
00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:20,350
involved and he
called this meeting.

975
00:44:20,350 --> 00:44:22,455
>> Were you at all
involved in the planning?

976
00:44:22,455 --> 00:44:26,055
>> I attended the meetings.
We did some things together,

977
00:44:26,055 --> 00:44:27,480
and we also did
things separately,

978
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:28,500
but we were a couple,

979
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:29,580
and we support each other.

980
00:44:29,580 --> 00:44:32,325
So I went and attended
the meetings.

981
00:44:32,325 --> 00:44:35,265
But really, that was David
took the lead in that,

982
00:44:35,265 --> 00:44:39,090
other than the attending the
meetings and being there

983
00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:42,840
for support and
speaking up and saying,

984
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,670
there needs to be
more people involved

985
00:44:44,670 --> 00:44:47,370
and there's a whole
community of people here.

986
00:44:47,370 --> 00:44:48,510
It shouldn't just be a group of

987
00:44:48,510 --> 00:44:50,520
buddies that plan this
event every year.

988
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,350
Other than that, I
didn't really have

989
00:44:52,350 --> 00:44:57,060
any leadership in that,

990
00:44:57,060 --> 00:44:59,370
this Pride committee
was an ad hoc group,

991
00:44:59,370 --> 00:45:00,420
these group of buddies.

992
00:45:00,420 --> 00:45:02,595
It wasn't a 501(c)(3).

993
00:45:02,595 --> 00:45:04,530
They didn't have any staff.
They didn't have any offices.

994
00:45:04,530 --> 00:45:06,360
It was just this group
of guys that got

995
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,040
together once a year and

996
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,780
decided what they were going
to do for Pride that year,

997
00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:11,850
and they did the same
thing every year.

998
00:45:11,850 --> 00:45:18,510
And really out of
those meetings,

999
00:45:18,510 --> 00:45:23,235
there was a formal
Pride organization

1000
00:45:23,235 --> 00:45:24,930
that was created and it became

1001
00:45:24,930 --> 00:45:27,000
a year round organization
with a director,

1002
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,530
and it became a

1003
00:45:31,530 --> 00:45:33,060
501(c)(3) so they
could get donations

1004
00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:34,320
and start getting
corporate donations.

1005
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:35,760
And once you become bigger,

1006
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,500
if you want to have
fireworks and you want to

1007
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:39,750
have an event for
300,000 people,

1008
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:41,100
you've got to have
a lot of money.

1009
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:43,050
You have to provide security,

1010
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:45,480
and you have to provide
portage potties.

1011
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,805
It's expensive to
put all that on.

1012
00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:52,080
So they really out
of that became

1013
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,930
the formal Pride organization
that exists today.

1014
00:45:56,720 --> 00:46:00,015
>> Can you talk about your move

1015
00:46:00,015 --> 00:46:03,520
from Cobb County following
the anti-gay resolution?

1016
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:10,455
>> During the efforts to fight
the anti-gay resolution,

1017
00:46:10,455 --> 00:46:13,020
we had our phone number

1018
00:46:13,020 --> 00:46:14,760
and address listed
in the phone book,

1019
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:21,555
and we were getting death
threats and threatening calls,

1020
00:46:21,555 --> 00:46:24,630
and got to the point

1021
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:27,510
where we just didn't feel
comfortable in our home.

1022
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:29,100
I liked it when I was at

1023
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:31,545
work because I wasn't
scared at work.

1024
00:46:31,545 --> 00:46:35,530
And at home, a lot of
times I felt scared.

1025
00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:42,090
We didn't initially plan
to leave Cobb County,

1026
00:46:42,090 --> 00:46:43,560
but as time went on,

1027
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,420
we started feeling more
and more uncomfortable,

1028
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:47,985
and David and I talked and said,

1029
00:46:47,985 --> 00:46:50,180
let's move out of here.

1030
00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:53,405
Let's go somewhere
and get unlisted,

1031
00:46:53,405 --> 00:46:54,980
definitely don't want
to have a listed

1032
00:46:54,980 --> 00:46:56,210
phone number and address.

1033
00:46:56,210 --> 00:46:58,560
We don't want it
in the phone book.

1034
00:46:58,870 --> 00:47:01,505
And so we made the
decision to move,

1035
00:47:01,505 --> 00:47:03,660
and on the one hand,

1036
00:47:03,660 --> 00:47:05,910
I felt a little
bit bad about that

1037
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:09,390
because the Cobb
Citizens Coalition,

1038
00:47:09,390 --> 00:47:11,070
I talked with you
something before

1039
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:13,620
about the Olympics
out of Cobb and there

1040
00:47:13,620 --> 00:47:16,770
was a sort of outside
people that didn't live in

1041
00:47:16,770 --> 00:47:18,270
Cobb County and their efforts to

1042
00:47:18,270 --> 00:47:20,670
fight the anti-gay resolution,

1043
00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:23,820
but they were fighting it
as outsiders and not people

1044
00:47:23,820 --> 00:47:25,620
who lived in and were part of

1045
00:47:25,620 --> 00:47:28,065
the community and wanted to
be a part of the community.

1046
00:47:28,065 --> 00:47:31,590
And the Cobb Citizens Coalition

1047
00:47:31,590 --> 00:47:35,880
informing that in the
approach we took really was

1048
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,500
people that lived
there that wanted

1049
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:39,300
to be allowed to
live in peace in

1050
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:41,340
their own community and not be

1051
00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:44,205
treated badly by their
neighbors or their government

1052
00:47:44,205 --> 00:47:48,180
and were part of the community

1053
00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:50,460
and make a decision to leave I

1054
00:47:50,460 --> 00:47:53,160
knew we're not going to be
part of the community anymore.

1055
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,230
So there was a part of

1056
00:47:55,230 --> 00:47:57,990
me that felt a little
bit like we were

1057
00:47:57,990 --> 00:48:02,010
abandoning the Cobb
community when we

1058
00:48:02,010 --> 00:48:04,770
left but we literally

1059
00:48:04,770 --> 00:48:06,570
were having trouble
sleeping at night.

1060
00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:08,100
We were scared. We'd go out

1061
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:12,120
and before going to work
or any place in the car,

1062
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,400
we'd get down and look under
the car and go around it and

1063
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,050
look for signs of a car had
been tampered with or bombs,

1064
00:48:19,050 --> 00:48:22,080
and we just couldn't
live there anymore.

1065
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:27,000
So we started looking
for a place to live,

1066
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,395
and we found a place

1067
00:48:28,395 --> 00:48:35,670
and I'm thinking it
was October of 1993,

1068
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:37,650
moved into the city of Atlanta.

1069
00:48:37,650 --> 00:48:41,970
And I had been

1070
00:48:41,970 --> 00:48:46,630
a member of the Cobb
Community Relations Council,

1071
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:51,225
which you need to be living
Cobb to be a member.

1072
00:48:51,225 --> 00:48:55,770
And we'd also Cobb
Citizen Coalition at

1073
00:48:55,770 --> 00:48:58,050
some point to call for a boycott

1074
00:48:58,050 --> 00:49:01,005
of the newly built Cobb
Convention Center.

1075
00:49:01,005 --> 00:49:04,200
The combination of calling for

1076
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,440
a boycott of the
convention center

1077
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:08,490
and moving out of that.

1078
00:49:08,490 --> 00:49:09,915
I felt like it

1079
00:49:09,915 --> 00:49:11,940
wasn't appropriate for me

1080
00:49:11,940 --> 00:49:13,770
to be a member of the
community relations council

1081
00:49:13,770 --> 00:49:16,740
anymore and let them know
I was leaving the county

1082
00:49:16,740 --> 00:49:24,435
and resigned from the
conventions group.

1083
00:49:24,435 --> 00:49:27,180
There was something
interesting that

1084
00:49:27,180 --> 00:49:30,880
happened when we had made
the decision to leave.

1085
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,840
I don't know how

1086
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,810
the press people got news
that we were leaving,

1087
00:49:36,810 --> 00:49:38,610
but we got contact by
the press and they said,

1088
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:39,990
we heard you're
leaving the county.

1089
00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:41,970
And we confirmed that,

1090
00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:44,350
and it was written
up in the paper.

1091
00:49:45,020 --> 00:49:50,445
The city of Smyrna where
Dave and I lived when we had

1092
00:49:50,445 --> 00:49:53,040
contacted the police
about the death threats

1093
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,710
because we were scared
and they sent an officer,

1094
00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:59,910
and we arranged to
have traces set

1095
00:49:59,910 --> 00:50:01,740
up on our phone so they
could try to figure out who

1096
00:50:01,740 --> 00:50:04,440
the people were that
were calling us.

1097
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,270
And they did find out
who some of them were,

1098
00:50:06,270 --> 00:50:08,190
and we never knew who they were.

1099
00:50:08,190 --> 00:50:09,900
They went and talked
to them and decided

1100
00:50:09,900 --> 00:50:11,760
that they we're just making

1101
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,440
idle threats and they didn't

1102
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,150
represent a real danger

1103
00:50:15,150 --> 00:50:17,325
to us and they wouldn't
tell us who they were.

1104
00:50:17,325 --> 00:50:21,345
But there was a police captain

1105
00:50:21,345 --> 00:50:24,480
in the city of Smyrna that
called me and told me he

1106
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,990
was gay and that he
really didn't want us to

1107
00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:29,715
leave and that we shouldn't

1108
00:50:29,715 --> 00:50:32,190
be worried that they
would protect us.

1109
00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:36,670
And I remember that phone call

1110
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,110
and being really
surprised that he was

1111
00:50:40,110 --> 00:50:43,635
a police captain on the
Smyrna Police Department.

1112
00:50:43,635 --> 00:50:46,740
So the mayor of
Smyrna at the time,

1113
00:50:46,740 --> 00:50:50,620
Max Bacon, I think he may
still be mayor today.

1114
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:54,000
He didn't think there were
gay and lesbian people in

1115
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,255
Smyrna from some of the
stuff he said at the time.

1116
00:50:57,255 --> 00:50:59,190
>> What was the reaction of

1117
00:50:59,190 --> 00:51:02,200
other members of the
Cobb Citizens coalition?

1118
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,270
>> Nobody said anything to us

1119
00:51:06,270 --> 00:51:08,550
that they were upset that we
were leaving or anything.

1120
00:51:08,550 --> 00:51:11,040
There actually were people
who said they understood,

1121
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,720
and they knew about
the death threats too.

1122
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:16,125
And there were other people

1123
00:51:16,125 --> 00:51:18,960
that had been in the news

1124
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,070
and had gotten some
threats and there are

1125
00:51:20,070 --> 00:51:21,690
other people that were a
little bit scared about it.

1126
00:51:21,690 --> 00:51:23,760
And they really told

1127
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,800
us they understood
why we were leaving.

1128
00:51:27,860 --> 00:51:38,070
And I think people

1129
00:51:38,070 --> 00:51:40,215
wished we wouldn't leave.

1130
00:51:40,215 --> 00:51:45,420
They wanted us to stay
and not be scared away,

1131
00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:49,380
but also, understood why we
were and why we did leave.

1132
00:51:49,380 --> 00:51:53,650
And it's not something
I regret doing.

1133
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,750
You can't do much in

1134
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:59,850
your life if you're
scared all the time.

1135
00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:04,005
And you hear about post
traumatic stress disorder.

1136
00:52:04,005 --> 00:52:07,890
I actually think that I had

1137
00:52:07,890 --> 00:52:10,350
some post traumatic stress
disorder after living for

1138
00:52:10,350 --> 00:52:12,030
several months with
these death threats

1139
00:52:12,030 --> 00:52:14,415
and the stuff that was going on.

1140
00:52:14,415 --> 00:52:18,660
I became angry and

1141
00:52:18,660 --> 00:52:23,040
short tempered to the point
that friends would tell me,

1142
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:29,475
said, you're need to
chill out a little bit.

1143
00:52:29,475 --> 00:52:31,770
This has really affected you.

1144
00:52:31,770 --> 00:52:36,840
So I think that for our
own health and safety,

1145
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,150
we had to leave where we were.

1146
00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:40,920
We could have, I suppose,

1147
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,650
gone to someplace in

1148
00:52:43,650 --> 00:52:45,150
Elson Cobb County and just got

1149
00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:47,625
an enlisted phone
number and address,

1150
00:52:47,625 --> 00:52:51,280
but we didn't really want
to live there anymore.

1151
00:52:51,590 --> 00:52:54,645
>> Can you talk about
the transition to

1152
00:52:54,645 --> 00:52:56,490
local Atlanta politics
and your work on

1153
00:52:56,490 --> 00:52:59,550
the Atlanta Community
Relations Board?

1154
00:52:59,550 --> 00:53:03,120
>> Now, I had been a member of

1155
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,270
the gay and lesbian ACLU and had

1156
00:53:06,270 --> 00:53:10,350
done some work and

1157
00:53:10,350 --> 00:53:12,540
actually became president
of the chapter,

1158
00:53:12,540 --> 00:53:14,820
which doesn't mean a
lot because we just had

1159
00:53:14,820 --> 00:53:17,370
one half dozen or so
people that were active.

1160
00:53:17,370 --> 00:53:20,310
There were a lot of gay and
lesbian members of the ACLU,

1161
00:53:20,310 --> 00:53:22,110
but they didn't necessarily come

1162
00:53:22,110 --> 00:53:25,755
to meetings and get
involved in activities.

1163
00:53:25,755 --> 00:53:28,230
Kathy Woollard had been

1164
00:53:28,230 --> 00:53:31,245
the previous president
of that chapter.

1165
00:53:31,245 --> 00:53:39,555
And met her after being a
victim of a hate crime.

1166
00:53:39,555 --> 00:53:41,760
She worked with the police.

1167
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,170
The police wouldn't
investigate it,

1168
00:53:43,170 --> 00:53:45,870
and she contacted the police
on behalf of the ACLU

1169
00:53:45,870 --> 00:53:48,570
and asked why they weren't
investigating and things,

1170
00:53:48,570 --> 00:53:50,430
got more involved in
the chapter after

1171
00:53:50,430 --> 00:53:54,810
that and had done some
work on hate crimes.

1172
00:53:54,810 --> 00:53:57,000
So when we moved into the city,

1173
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,740
I was contacted by a
guy Phil McDonald.

1174
00:54:01,740 --> 00:54:03,540
And he told me about

1175
00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:06,930
this gay and lesbian
public safety committee.

1176
00:54:06,930 --> 00:54:09,120
It was a advisory committee to

1177
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,990
the Atlanta city council
public safety committee.

1178
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:14,760
And they met monthly and

1179
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,380
would meet with the
police chief and

1180
00:54:16,380 --> 00:54:20,130
a fire chief or sometimes
a deputy chief and

1181
00:54:20,130 --> 00:54:21,930
the head of the Department of
Corrections for the Ccty of

1182
00:54:21,930 --> 00:54:24,180
Atlanta and dealt with issues

1183
00:54:24,180 --> 00:54:26,160
between the gay and
lesbian community

1184
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,620
and those different
organizations;

1185
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:30,720
police, fire, and corrections.

1186
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:34,530
So he said, we're sorry that
you're leaving Cobb County,

1187
00:54:34,530 --> 00:54:35,775
but we're glad you're
coming to Atlanta,

1188
00:54:35,775 --> 00:54:37,650
would you be
interested in joining

1189
00:54:37,650 --> 00:54:39,660
us on the public
safety committee.

1190
00:54:39,660 --> 00:54:40,905
And so I started attending

1191
00:54:40,905 --> 00:54:43,635
meetings of the public
safety committee.

1192
00:54:43,635 --> 00:54:47,580
And there was frequently just
three or four of us there.

1193
00:54:47,580 --> 00:54:50,970
Again, a lot of people
are apolitical and

1194
00:54:50,970 --> 00:54:52,380
people don't like to go and

1195
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:54,420
sit in boring
government meetings.

1196
00:54:54,420 --> 00:54:57,090
We'd go sit in these
meetings and sometimes we'd

1197
00:54:57,090 --> 00:54:59,520
go months without
accomplishing things,

1198
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:00,960
but we did actually accomplish

1199
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,830
some really good things over
time, but Phil McDonald,

1200
00:55:04,830 --> 00:55:06,210
who'd asked me to be
a part of that group,

1201
00:55:06,210 --> 00:55:07,995
and he was a member
of the committee,

1202
00:55:07,995 --> 00:55:10,290
he had come from Arkansas.

1203
00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:14,055
His family, they were
comfortable financially.

1204
00:55:14,055 --> 00:55:16,050
I don't know exactly
how comfortable,

1205
00:55:16,050 --> 00:55:19,860
but he was a full-time
political person.

1206
00:55:19,860 --> 00:55:21,630
He worked on people's campaigns

1207
00:55:21,630 --> 00:55:23,220
and he was a political advisor,

1208
00:55:23,220 --> 00:55:27,675
and he became an advisor

1209
00:55:27,675 --> 00:55:31,935
during the campaign
for Bill Campbell,

1210
00:55:31,935 --> 00:55:35,640
who ran for mayor in Atlanta
to Bill Campbell's campaign.

1211
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,400
And after Bill
Campbell was elected,

1212
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,825
he was hired as

1213
00:55:42,825 --> 00:55:45,180
a gay and lesbian advisor to

1214
00:55:45,180 --> 00:55:48,000
the mayor of the city of
Atlanta, to Bill Campbell.

1215
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,210
And Phil told me
that Bill Campbell

1216
00:55:51,210 --> 00:55:54,915
wanted to put together an
Atlanta community relations.

1217
00:55:54,915 --> 00:55:57,210
There wasn't a community
relations council then.

1218
00:55:57,210 --> 00:56:00,400
And these community
relations councils,

1219
00:56:01,850 --> 00:56:05,670
they were actually
something that came

1220
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:09,570
up nationally as a response
after the Watts riots in LA,

1221
00:56:09,570 --> 00:56:12,420
and there was this effort,

1222
00:56:12,420 --> 00:56:14,910
actually, mediators in
the Justice Department,

1223
00:56:14,910 --> 00:56:16,590
I think came up with
the idea to create

1224
00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:18,240
community relations
councils around

1225
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:19,320
the country and they would be

1226
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,120
these groups of citizens

1227
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,610
who would work to
foster good relations

1228
00:56:23,610 --> 00:56:26,220
between different
groups of people

1229
00:56:26,220 --> 00:56:28,410
in their communities and

1230
00:56:28,410 --> 00:56:30,060
also between the people
and their government.

1231
00:56:30,060 --> 00:56:32,580
And also, in some cases,

1232
00:56:32,580 --> 00:56:34,935
these groups were given
mediation training,

1233
00:56:34,935 --> 00:56:36,420
and they could go in when there

1234
00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:38,745
were disputes or situations

1235
00:56:38,745 --> 00:56:42,780
like alleged police
brutality or a hate crime,

1236
00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:46,650
something that might lead
to civil unrest and riots,

1237
00:56:46,650 --> 00:56:48,225
which you don't want to have.

1238
00:56:48,225 --> 00:56:50,370
People that could go
in and mediate with

1239
00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:52,815
the groups and try to
diffuse situations.

1240
00:56:52,815 --> 00:56:55,200
So Atlanta didn't have one,

1241
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,335
and there weren't as many
of them in the south.

1242
00:56:58,335 --> 00:57:00,930
At the point where
Atlanta was forming,

1243
00:57:00,930 --> 00:57:03,060
there was the Cobb
County one I'd been on,

1244
00:57:03,060 --> 00:57:04,350
and there was one in DeKalc,

1245
00:57:04,350 --> 00:57:06,930
and there may have been
the only two in the state.

1246
00:57:06,930 --> 00:57:08,760
So he thought it
would be a good idea

1247
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,220
to form one in Atlanta.

1248
00:57:11,220 --> 00:57:13,860
And Phil asked me if
I would be on it.

1249
00:57:13,860 --> 00:57:15,660
And I said, sure,
I'd love to do that.

1250
00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:17,700
It actually fits in with
what I'd like to do.

1251
00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:19,500
I like being a peacemaker rather

1252
00:57:19,500 --> 00:57:23,280
than fighting with the
people who are against you.

1253
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,150
I like the idea of talking

1254
00:57:27,150 --> 00:57:28,380
to them and trying

1255
00:57:28,380 --> 00:57:31,425
to turn them from
enemies into friends,

1256
00:57:31,425 --> 00:57:34,380
and to resolve the
issues that way.

1257
00:57:34,380 --> 00:57:37,500
So that seemed like a
really good thing to me,

1258
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:38,790
and I agreed to be on it.

1259
00:57:38,790 --> 00:57:41,490
So Mayor Bill Campbell,

1260
00:57:41,490 --> 00:57:45,645
when he announced the the
community relations council,

1261
00:57:45,645 --> 00:57:47,730
it was set up so that he

1262
00:57:47,730 --> 00:57:50,310
appointed a certain
number of people to it,

1263
00:57:50,310 --> 00:57:51,450
and then each of

1264
00:57:51,450 --> 00:57:53,280
the members of the city council

1265
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:54,735
each got to appoint a person.

1266
00:57:54,735 --> 00:57:56,250
So when he announced it,

1267
00:57:56,250 --> 00:57:57,780
he announced who his
appointees were,

1268
00:57:57,780 --> 00:58:02,720
and I was one of the persons
appointed, got involved.

1269
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,785
They didn't give the
Community Relations Council

1270
00:58:05,785 --> 00:58:08,185
any money or any staff,

1271
00:58:08,185 --> 00:58:11,680
and we would go and have
meetings and we'd hear

1272
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,300
about problems that were in

1273
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:14,410
the city and things that they

1274
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:16,165
thought was good for us to,

1275
00:58:16,165 --> 00:58:20,980
there was some people in
the city administration.

1276
00:58:20,980 --> 00:58:23,980
They would have persons

1277
00:58:23,980 --> 00:58:25,450
they thought should
come talk to us.

1278
00:58:25,450 --> 00:58:27,100
But then there were
people from the community

1279
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:28,390
after this announcement he made,

1280
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:30,640
they informed us that they
wanted to come talk to us,

1281
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,590
and people had come
talked to a group

1282
00:58:32,590 --> 00:58:35,800
about the homeless
situation in Atlanta,

1283
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,420
all the homeless people.

1284
00:58:37,420 --> 00:58:40,090
One of the things that was
happening then that was really

1285
00:58:40,090 --> 00:58:43,090
big was neighborhood
gentrification.

1286
00:58:43,090 --> 00:58:46,270
There were people
starting to move back

1287
00:58:46,270 --> 00:58:49,225
into the city into
old neighborhoods.

1288
00:58:49,225 --> 00:58:52,480
A lot of them were
neighborhoods that

1289
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,560
maybe in the '50s and '60s
had been white neighborhoods,

1290
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,120
and then when they
had white flight

1291
00:58:58,120 --> 00:58:59,710
with the school integration,

1292
00:58:59,710 --> 00:59:01,165
people moved out of the city,

1293
00:59:01,165 --> 00:59:04,555
they became black
neighborhoods and now they're

1294
00:59:04,555 --> 00:59:07,855
at the point where this
was in the early '90s,

1295
00:59:07,855 --> 00:59:09,010
one of the problems happening

1296
00:59:09,010 --> 00:59:10,300
in Atlanta and it was
actually happening in

1297
00:59:10,300 --> 00:59:11,440
cities all around the country

1298
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,170
was this neighborhood
gentrification.

1299
00:59:14,170 --> 00:59:16,300
People were moving
back into the cities,

1300
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:18,190
getting tired of the
long commutes to

1301
00:59:18,190 --> 00:59:20,725
come in to work and wanting
to live in the city

1302
00:59:20,725 --> 00:59:23,665
and you had these
neighborhoods that had

1303
00:59:23,665 --> 00:59:28,990
the largely older retired
Black people who lived in

1304
00:59:28,990 --> 00:59:31,480
homes that they owned

1305
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,330
and suddenly people are coming
in and renovating homes,

1306
00:59:34,330 --> 00:59:36,070
and the property value
started going up

1307
00:59:36,070 --> 00:59:38,440
and they started getting
hit with higher tax bills.

1308
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:39,610
They're on fixed incomes,

1309
00:59:39,610 --> 00:59:41,740
they couldn't afford
to pay their taxes,

1310
00:59:41,740 --> 00:59:43,570
and there started being

1311
00:59:43,570 --> 00:59:46,690
some tension between
the Black community

1312
00:59:46,690 --> 00:59:49,900
and young people
who were moving to

1313
00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:51,310
these neighborhoods
and a lot of them were

1314
00:59:51,310 --> 00:59:53,785
gays and lesbians,
interestingly enough.

1315
00:59:53,785 --> 00:59:56,020
We've been pioneers at

1316
00:59:56,020 --> 00:59:59,110
renovating neighborhoods
in a lot of cities,

1317
00:59:59,110 --> 01:00:01,210
there was this tension
that came out.

1318
01:00:01,210 --> 01:00:02,560
That was something we worked on,

1319
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,530
but it was disappointing

1320
01:00:05,530 --> 01:00:07,630
being on the Community
Relations Commission in

1321
01:00:07,630 --> 01:00:10,390
Atlanta because we
didn't have the staff or

1322
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:12,100
budget or there were things

1323
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:14,050
that the group
wanted to work on,

1324
01:00:14,050 --> 01:00:18,160
and we couldn't have hearings,

1325
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:19,840
we couldn't subpoena people,

1326
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,750
we couldn't ask the staff
to research stuff for us.

1327
01:00:22,750 --> 01:00:25,130
We could, but they
didn't have to.

1328
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:31,510
As I said, we had no
budget, and in retrospect,

1329
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:35,290
I think part of the
establishment of

1330
01:00:35,290 --> 01:00:36,940
it was a photo wop and

1331
01:00:36,940 --> 01:00:38,815
something that Bill
Campbell could say,

1332
01:00:38,815 --> 01:00:41,860
look what I've done, and we
never saw him again after

1333
01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:44,020
the press conference where

1334
01:00:44,020 --> 01:00:46,615
he announced that he
was forming the group.

1335
01:00:46,615 --> 01:00:48,400
But in spite of that,

1336
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:49,780
we did do a few things,

1337
01:00:49,780 --> 01:00:51,820
and one of the things,

1338
01:00:51,820 --> 01:00:53,680
was around that neighborhood
gentrification.

1339
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,060
There was a neighborhood called

1340
01:00:55,060 --> 01:00:58,090
Kirkwood in East Atlanta,

1341
01:00:58,090 --> 01:00:59,410
and it was one of

1342
01:00:59,410 --> 01:01:01,465
the neighborhoods that
people were moving into,

1343
01:01:01,465 --> 01:01:03,100
and there were a lot of

1344
01:01:03,100 --> 01:01:06,175
lesbian couples that were
moving in this neighborhood.

1345
01:01:06,175 --> 01:01:09,130
There was a minister,

1346
01:01:09,130 --> 01:01:11,380
Black minister,
didn't have a church,

1347
01:01:11,380 --> 01:01:12,550
but he was a minister,

1348
01:01:12,550 --> 01:01:14,440
and he organized a march through

1349
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,890
the neighborhood with some
of the older Black people

1350
01:01:17,890 --> 01:01:19,870
that lived in the
neighborhood to

1351
01:01:19,870 --> 01:01:20,995
demonstrate against

1352
01:01:20,995 --> 01:01:23,395
lesbians moving into
their neighborhood.

1353
01:01:23,395 --> 01:01:30,280
It took on this straight
versus gay thing,

1354
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,130
but it really grew out

1355
01:01:33,130 --> 01:01:36,100
of this financial pressure
being put on older people that

1356
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:37,810
didn't want to see their
property values going

1357
01:01:37,810 --> 01:01:41,965
up because they couldn't
afford the higher taxes.

1358
01:01:41,965 --> 01:01:47,140
And we held some community
forums in the neighborhood

1359
01:01:47,140 --> 01:01:51,520
and allowed people to

1360
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,050
come and talk with each
other and actually

1361
01:01:53,050 --> 01:01:56,305
helped diffuse that situation.

1362
01:01:56,305 --> 01:02:01,420
It was interestingly enough,
well, interesting to me,

1363
01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:03,370
the city council person from

1364
01:02:03,370 --> 01:02:04,690
that neighborhood
at the time was

1365
01:02:04,690 --> 01:02:06,745
a person named Sherry Dorsey.

1366
01:02:06,745 --> 01:02:12,430
Her husband was the
sheriff of DeKalb County,

1367
01:02:12,430 --> 01:02:17,260
and Sherry Dorsey as a
member of the city council,

1368
01:02:17,260 --> 01:02:20,740
you would think she'd try
to diffuse the problem.

1369
01:02:20,740 --> 01:02:23,620
She'd actually marched
with the minister

1370
01:02:23,620 --> 01:02:27,205
and she publicly was
speaking out and saying,

1371
01:02:27,205 --> 01:02:28,540
these gay people shouldn't be

1372
01:02:28,540 --> 01:02:29,680
moving in these neighborhoods,

1373
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:30,970
we don't want them here.

1374
01:02:30,970 --> 01:02:34,310
And she was openly hostile.

1375
01:02:35,100 --> 01:02:39,550
She didn't stay in
the city council,

1376
01:02:39,550 --> 01:02:43,120
she wasn't re elected
partly because her husband

1377
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,150
assassinated the guy who

1378
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:48,160
beat him in re
election for sheriff,

1379
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,520
and so her husband is
in state prison now.

1380
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:56,155
But that was a sad thing
to see somebody in

1381
01:02:56,155 --> 01:02:59,350
the city council fanning flames

1382
01:02:59,350 --> 01:03:01,120
and trying to create
dissent in the community.

1383
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,730
Of course, I've seen that
in Cobb County, too,

1384
01:03:03,730 --> 01:03:06,400
so sometimes elected officials

1385
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,130
are good at what they do
and sometimes they're not.

1386
01:03:10,170 --> 01:03:14,470
>> You pulled back from
community activism around 1997.

1387
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:17,210
What was the rationale
for that decision?

1388
01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:23,740
>> First of all, I had
been involved in activism

1389
01:03:23,740 --> 01:03:27,800
since probably '86 or '87,

1390
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,365
and I was always
involved as a volunteer.

1391
01:03:34,365 --> 01:03:35,400
I worked full time.

1392
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,740
I was never a person that got

1393
01:03:37,740 --> 01:03:41,880
a salary from a nonprofit
group to do what I was doing.

1394
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,395
I was doing stuff during

1395
01:03:44,395 --> 01:03:46,510
the anti gay stuff
in Cobb County,

1396
01:03:46,510 --> 01:03:51,550
and at times when I worked a
whole lot on public safety,

1397
01:03:51,550 --> 01:03:54,400
and hate crime issues.

1398
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,880
When someone would get
attacked in the community,

1399
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,620
this was after the
Cobb County stuff

1400
01:03:59,620 --> 01:04:01,850
or during the Cobb County stuff,

1401
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,750
I was available to the press.

1402
01:04:04,750 --> 01:04:07,000
They'd call me and I worked
for a cell phone company,

1403
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,200
so they'd get me
on my cell phone

1404
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:09,250
and I was responsive and

1405
01:04:09,250 --> 01:04:12,100
I'd call them back before
their press deadlines.

1406
01:04:12,100 --> 01:04:13,540
They liked calling me,

1407
01:04:13,540 --> 01:04:17,050
but I'd take my break at
lunch at work and drive

1408
01:04:17,050 --> 01:04:18,820
over to a shopping center
parking out somewhere

1409
01:04:18,820 --> 01:04:21,800
and do an interview with
somebody on the news.

1410
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,960
Then I was going to community
meetings at night and

1411
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:31,435
my days were my lunchtime
and my break times and

1412
01:04:31,435 --> 01:04:36,235
I took vacation
time to go work on

1413
01:04:36,235 --> 01:04:38,800
conferences to get training

1414
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,720
on victims assistance for

1415
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:42,010
the hate crimes
work I was doing.

1416
01:04:42,010 --> 01:04:45,400
I took vacation time to
go to Washington to help

1417
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:49,180
plan the hate crime conference
that Bill Clinton had.

1418
01:04:49,180 --> 01:04:52,900
I was doing all this stuff work

1419
01:04:52,900 --> 01:04:54,715
and all this community stuff

1420
01:04:54,715 --> 01:04:57,355
and not leaving much
time for myself.

1421
01:04:57,355 --> 01:05:00,550
I'd come home at night
and eat dinner at 9:30 or

1422
01:05:00,550 --> 01:05:01,990
10 o'clock and go
to bed and then

1423
01:05:01,990 --> 01:05:03,655
get up and go to work again.

1424
01:05:03,655 --> 01:05:05,725
I just was really getting burned

1425
01:05:05,725 --> 01:05:10,780
out and felt like I
needed to take a break.

1426
01:05:10,780 --> 01:05:13,165
I think probably there

1427
01:05:13,165 --> 01:05:18,220
was an emotional
component to that too.

1428
01:05:18,220 --> 01:05:21,040
I did a lot of work

1429
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,020
on public safety issues
that came out of

1430
01:05:23,020 --> 01:05:27,040
the work with the gay
and lesbian ACLU.

1431
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,100
They had a project where
they worked on hate crimes,

1432
01:05:30,100 --> 01:05:31,660
and we had some hate
crimes initiatives

1433
01:05:31,660 --> 01:05:33,010
I can tell you more about.

1434
01:05:33,010 --> 01:05:37,780
Then being on the gay and
lesbian public safety committee

1435
01:05:37,780 --> 01:05:39,625
at Atlanta City Council,

1436
01:05:39,625 --> 01:05:43,345
gotten really involved
with hate crime issues.

1437
01:05:43,345 --> 01:05:45,880
And initially, we had

1438
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:47,410
this effort where
we were trying just

1439
01:05:47,410 --> 01:05:48,970
to get statistics on hate crime,

1440
01:05:48,970 --> 01:05:51,460
so we set up a toll free
state wide number people

1441
01:05:51,460 --> 01:05:53,830
could call and report
that they were victims of

1442
01:05:53,830 --> 01:05:55,210
hate crimes and we
were just trying to

1443
01:05:55,210 --> 01:05:56,980
gather statistics
because there was

1444
01:05:56,980 --> 01:06:00,430
no requirement in
law in Georgia for

1445
01:06:00,430 --> 01:06:02,050
anybody to record hate crimes

1446
01:06:02,050 --> 01:06:04,045
and to document that
hate crimes occurred.

1447
01:06:04,045 --> 01:06:05,260
We'd try to get hate crimes

1448
01:06:05,260 --> 01:06:06,460
laws passed in the legislature,

1449
01:06:06,460 --> 01:06:07,540
and they didn't even
want to talk to us.

1450
01:06:07,540 --> 01:06:09,235
They said, we don't have
a hate crime problem.

1451
01:06:09,235 --> 01:06:12,370
How many of them are there?
Nobody could tell them.

1452
01:06:12,370 --> 01:06:14,410
The city of Atlanta had
an ordinance, actually,

1453
01:06:14,410 --> 01:06:16,510
that required them to
collect hate crimes data,

1454
01:06:16,510 --> 01:06:18,370
but they were the
only jurisdiction

1455
01:06:18,370 --> 01:06:19,390
in the state that did,

1456
01:06:19,390 --> 01:06:21,355
and it was iffy,

1457
01:06:21,355 --> 01:06:23,470
what they did because there

1458
01:06:23,470 --> 01:06:25,510
was no definition in
state law in Georgia,

1459
01:06:25,510 --> 01:06:26,980
what hate crimes were,
so I think it was

1460
01:06:26,980 --> 01:06:28,480
sometimes confusing
to their officer.

1461
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,510
If somebody got beat up
by somebody and robbed,

1462
01:06:31,510 --> 01:06:33,055
and the person was saying,

1463
01:06:33,055 --> 01:06:34,510
you get what you deserve,

1464
01:06:34,510 --> 01:06:36,535
you fag while they
were beating them up.

1465
01:06:36,535 --> 01:06:38,500
They dealt with it as a robbery,

1466
01:06:38,500 --> 01:06:40,480
and that wouldn't get
reported as a hate crime.

1467
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,450
But as I was doing
this statistics,

1468
01:06:43,450 --> 01:06:46,810
I was the one that took the
calls off the recorder from

1469
01:06:46,810 --> 01:06:48,220
the 800 number and
would call people

1470
01:06:48,220 --> 01:06:50,230
back and ask what
happened to them,

1471
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:52,150
and I went through
training on how

1472
01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:54,220
to document hate
crimes and gather

1473
01:06:54,220 --> 01:06:55,390
hate crime statistics using

1474
01:06:55,390 --> 01:06:59,830
the Department of Justice
crime reporting methods.

1475
01:06:59,830 --> 01:07:01,600
I would talk to these people,

1476
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,340
and I'm getting
this information,

1477
01:07:03,340 --> 01:07:06,835
and I wanted to get it
to create statistics.

1478
01:07:06,835 --> 01:07:09,340
They wanted somebody to talk to.

1479
01:07:09,340 --> 01:07:10,750
They were victim of crimes,

1480
01:07:10,750 --> 01:07:13,255
and sometimes they'd been
really badly beat up

1481
01:07:13,255 --> 01:07:15,895
or hurt or had ongoing injuries.

1482
01:07:15,895 --> 01:07:17,800
They were traumatized,

1483
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,180
they're afraid to go
out of their home,

1484
01:07:19,180 --> 01:07:21,040
and I ended up
spending lots of time

1485
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,295
talking with hate crime victims.

1486
01:07:23,295 --> 01:07:25,080
Then I thought,
well, maybe I need

1487
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:26,760
some victims advocacy training,

1488
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,250
and I went to

1489
01:07:29,250 --> 01:07:31,470
the governor's office of

1490
01:07:31,470 --> 01:07:33,765
criminal justice
coordinating counsel.

1491
01:07:33,765 --> 01:07:35,880
They distribute victim of

1492
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:37,740
crime funds in the
state for victims of

1493
01:07:37,740 --> 01:07:39,810
violence and they work

1494
01:07:39,810 --> 01:07:42,195
with victims assistance
programs throughout the state.

1495
01:07:42,195 --> 01:07:43,665
They have annual conferences.

1496
01:07:43,665 --> 01:07:45,150
I went to some of
their conferences,

1497
01:07:45,150 --> 01:07:47,805
and I started acting
as a victims advocate

1498
01:07:47,805 --> 01:07:52,350
and giving people
somebody to talk to,

1499
01:07:52,350 --> 01:07:54,120
if they didn't have
medical insurance,

1500
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,610
helping them apply for

1501
01:07:56,610 --> 01:07:59,835
victims assistance funding
to pay their medical bills.

1502
01:07:59,835 --> 01:08:04,275
I found a group of gay
and lesbian psychologists

1503
01:08:04,275 --> 01:08:05,730
that would provide
free counseling

1504
01:08:05,730 --> 01:08:06,540
to people who didn't have

1505
01:08:06,540 --> 01:08:09,830
medical insurance that
were crime victims.

1506
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:14,035
Where all this was going is

1507
01:08:14,035 --> 01:08:16,120
this talking with people who had

1508
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:20,485
been beat up and abused and
just horribly traumatized,

1509
01:08:20,485 --> 01:08:22,000
it really wore me down,

1510
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,550
and I got to a point where
I just needed a break.

1511
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:27,055
And I said, I don't think
I can do this anymore,

1512
01:08:27,055 --> 01:08:28,360
and I think I need a break from

1513
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,640
everything and decided to step

1514
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,590
back and stop being

1515
01:08:32,590 --> 01:08:35,150
involved in the
community for a while.

1516
01:08:37,490 --> 01:08:39,780
>> Can you talk a
little bit more

1517
01:08:39,780 --> 01:08:41,625
about what you
accomplished as part of

1518
01:08:41,625 --> 01:08:43,140
the Public Safety
Council and with

1519
01:08:43,140 --> 01:08:46,545
the hate crimes before you
decided to take a step back?

1520
01:08:46,545 --> 01:08:50,560
>> We accomplished a
lot of good stuff.

1521
01:08:50,900 --> 01:08:54,840
There's a book I

1522
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,060
gave you a copy of
where I helped publish

1523
01:08:57,060 --> 01:09:00,090
one year hate crime statistics
for Georgia jointly

1524
01:09:00,090 --> 01:09:03,750
with the National Association
of Anti-violence programs,

1525
01:09:03,750 --> 01:09:07,500
which was a loose organization,

1526
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:09,915
loosely formed umbrella group

1527
01:09:09,915 --> 01:09:12,195
over gay and lesbian

1528
01:09:12,195 --> 01:09:14,310
Anti-violence programs
around the country.

1529
01:09:14,310 --> 01:09:17,670
There were depending
on what year it was,

1530
01:09:17,670 --> 01:09:19,830
there would be 15, 16,

1531
01:09:19,830 --> 01:09:22,380
up to 2024 programs
around the country,

1532
01:09:22,380 --> 01:09:25,530
and they were organizations
that worked on hate crimes.

1533
01:09:25,530 --> 01:09:27,180
Some of them just
gathered statistics.

1534
01:09:27,180 --> 01:09:29,115
Some of them also provided
victims assistance,

1535
01:09:29,115 --> 01:09:30,810
and some of them also dealt

1536
01:09:30,810 --> 01:09:34,900
with same sex domestic
violence issues.

1537
01:09:35,630 --> 01:09:41,790
In working with the
gay lesbian ACLU,

1538
01:09:41,790 --> 01:09:43,110
it was their project to put

1539
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:44,520
this 800 number and try to get

1540
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,700
the statistics and start
documenting what was happening.

1541
01:09:48,770 --> 01:09:52,050
We were able to pull
together information

1542
01:09:52,050 --> 01:09:56,310
and to document
and get some data,

1543
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:57,990
what was going on in the state.

1544
01:09:57,990 --> 01:09:59,820
So we accomplished that.

1545
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:02,190
When I started doing the
victims assistance stuff,

1546
01:10:02,190 --> 01:10:04,290
I felt like I was doing
something good for people.

1547
01:10:04,290 --> 01:10:07,140
I was helping them deal with

1548
01:10:07,140 --> 01:10:10,380
what had happened to
them as crime victims.

1549
01:10:10,380 --> 01:10:13,440
A lot of times they were
afraid to reach out and go

1550
01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:16,950
to other victims
assistance programs

1551
01:10:16,950 --> 01:10:19,080
because people that are

1552
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,450
hate crime victims a lot of

1553
01:10:21,450 --> 01:10:24,510
times when they're attacked
because of who they are,

1554
01:10:24,510 --> 01:10:27,885
they worry that the attackers

1555
01:10:27,885 --> 01:10:30,180
represent the values
of the communities

1556
01:10:30,180 --> 01:10:32,790
they live in and they're worried
about and re-victimized.

1557
01:10:32,790 --> 01:10:36,510
They're much less likely

1558
01:10:36,510 --> 01:10:39,195
to report that they're victim
of crime to the police.

1559
01:10:39,195 --> 01:10:40,920
They're much less
likely to go to

1560
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,620
victim assistance programs
and ask for help.

1561
01:10:43,620 --> 01:10:45,690
So what they do, a lot of times,

1562
01:10:45,690 --> 01:10:49,050
and they are also much more
likely than victims of

1563
01:10:49,050 --> 01:10:50,430
other crimes to have

1564
01:10:50,430 --> 01:10:53,070
longer term posttraumatic
stress disorder from it.

1565
01:10:53,070 --> 01:10:54,945
And a lot of times they just

1566
01:10:54,945 --> 01:10:58,065
withdraw and stay in
their house and suffer.

1567
01:10:58,065 --> 01:11:00,765
So I felt good about helping,

1568
01:11:00,765 --> 01:11:02,790
give them somebody
to talk to who they

1569
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:04,620
felt safe talking
to because it was

1570
01:11:04,620 --> 01:11:08,310
a gay and lesbian organization
and and helping them

1571
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:10,500
access services
that were available

1572
01:11:10,500 --> 01:11:12,780
to them and to deal with.

1573
01:11:12,780 --> 01:11:15,825
So that was something
good that came out of

1574
01:11:15,825 --> 01:11:19,560
the gay and lesbian initiative

1575
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,540
through the Gay and
Lesbian Chapter

1576
01:11:21,540 --> 01:11:24,250
of the ACLU and the
hate crime at work.

1577
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:30,075
I kept working on hate
crimes over time.

1578
01:11:30,075 --> 01:11:34,125
And eventually in 1997,

1579
01:11:34,125 --> 01:11:37,215
Bill Clinton had a conference
on hate crimes and

1580
01:11:37,215 --> 01:11:40,995
worked with attended
meetings at the White House,

1581
01:11:40,995 --> 01:11:43,020
a couple of sets of meetings and

1582
01:11:43,020 --> 01:11:46,515
helped with members of the NA,

1583
01:11:46,515 --> 01:11:50,430
National Association of
Anti-violence programs, NAA.

1584
01:11:50,430 --> 01:11:57,285
[LAUGHTER] Anyway, BP,
the umbrellization.

1585
01:11:57,285 --> 01:12:00,630
That group and I
representative from

1586
01:12:00,630 --> 01:12:04,080
the group in Atlanta helped
plan that conference.

1587
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,815
So Bill Clinton had a conference
at the White House and

1588
01:12:07,815 --> 01:12:09,780
had people from all
over the country

1589
01:12:09,780 --> 01:12:11,910
that drew attention
to hate crimes.

1590
01:12:11,910 --> 01:12:15,870
We helped get more
attention at hate crimes,

1591
01:12:15,870 --> 01:12:16,980
and there were hate crimes laws

1592
01:12:16,980 --> 01:12:18,885
passed in a lot of the states.

1593
01:12:18,885 --> 01:12:21,765
We didn't have one in
Georgia at the time.

1594
01:12:21,765 --> 01:12:23,280
We did get one passed later on,

1595
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,290
which the Supreme
Court threw out.

1596
01:12:26,900 --> 01:12:29,490
I can tell you more about
that if you want to know,

1597
01:12:29,490 --> 01:12:33,330
but we were able to get
more attention to it.

1598
01:12:33,330 --> 01:12:35,685
And through the data collection,

1599
01:12:35,685 --> 01:12:37,515
we were able to convince

1600
01:12:37,515 --> 01:12:40,680
the Georgia Bureau of
Investigation who's

1601
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,085
responsible for collecting
crime data in Georgia.

1602
01:12:44,085 --> 01:12:48,255
We're able to
convince them to add

1603
01:12:48,255 --> 01:12:50,790
hate crimes to the
standard crime reporting

1604
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:53,850
forms in Georgia and begin
collecting data on it,

1605
01:12:53,850 --> 01:12:56,130
even though they weren't
required to by law.

1606
01:12:56,130 --> 01:13:01,560
And so the GBI added
that on their forms,

1607
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,560
and they had training
programs for

1608
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,630
the police department
trainers at

1609
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:08,010
different law enforcement
organizations

1610
01:13:08,010 --> 01:13:08,700
around the state who could

1611
01:13:08,700 --> 01:13:11,220
then go back and train
their departments.

1612
01:13:11,220 --> 01:13:14,370
They had training
on hate crimes and

1613
01:13:14,370 --> 01:13:15,630
recognition of hate crimes and

1614
01:13:15,630 --> 01:13:18,570
hate times data collection.

1615
01:13:18,570 --> 01:13:22,260
They brought in trainers
from the FBI to

1616
01:13:22,260 --> 01:13:27,000
the state police academy
for that training session,

1617
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,315
and I got to go I was invited
by the FBI trainers to go.

1618
01:13:30,315 --> 01:13:34,020
Attend along with a
person from the ADL.

1619
01:13:34,020 --> 01:13:38,170
So that was something
we accomplished.

1620
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:45,810
I had meetings with the Center
for Disease Control and

1621
01:13:45,810 --> 01:13:50,790
doctors on the administration

1622
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:53,670
at Grady Hospital
Grady Emergency Room,

1623
01:13:53,670 --> 01:13:55,380
got contacted by them.

1624
01:13:55,380 --> 01:13:56,745
I didn't know how they found out

1625
01:13:56,745 --> 01:13:57,990
about what we were doing,

1626
01:13:57,990 --> 01:14:00,780
but contacted me at one point
and asked if we would meet,

1627
01:14:00,780 --> 01:14:03,285
and they were
wanting to establish

1628
01:14:03,285 --> 01:14:06,930
protocols for dealing
with hate crime victims

1629
01:14:06,930 --> 01:14:09,780
that they would then put
out as guidelines for

1630
01:14:09,780 --> 01:14:13,365
doctors in emergency
rooms around the country.

1631
01:14:13,365 --> 01:14:15,990
So that was something
that I think came

1632
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:19,390
out of that. And
we accomplished.

1633
01:14:22,220 --> 01:14:26,070
And that pretty much is
all hate crime stuff.

1634
01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:28,770
There were other public
safety issues I ended up

1635
01:14:28,770 --> 01:14:31,050
getting involved with because

1636
01:14:31,050 --> 01:14:33,330
of working with

1637
01:14:33,330 --> 01:14:37,035
the Atlanta City Council
Public Safety Committee,

1638
01:14:37,035 --> 01:14:39,550
again Lisban Public
Safety Committee.

1639
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:44,640
Prior to the organization
of that committee,

1640
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,790
and they were actually created,

1641
01:14:47,790 --> 01:14:51,810
I think a year two
before I was involved,

1642
01:14:51,810 --> 01:14:56,385
and the city ordinance
that created them,

1643
01:14:56,385 --> 01:15:01,290
they allowed for there
to be 12 or 14 members,

1644
01:15:01,290 --> 01:15:03,510
but there was never more
than six or seven people.

1645
01:15:03,510 --> 01:15:05,010
They had trouble
finding people who were

1646
01:15:05,010 --> 01:15:06,690
willing to come and as I said,

1647
01:15:06,690 --> 01:15:10,240
sit in what could sometimes
be just long boring meetings.

1648
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,440
So there was a guy,

1649
01:15:13,440 --> 01:15:15,585
Phil McDonald and
then another person,

1650
01:15:15,585 --> 01:15:19,110
David McDonald and I

1651
01:15:19,110 --> 01:15:22,710
that were oftentimes the only
ones there at the meeting.

1652
01:15:22,710 --> 01:15:25,720
But over the years,

1653
01:15:26,780 --> 01:15:31,080
I guess I was part of that
group for 3.5-4 years.

1654
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,125
We were able to accomplish
several things.

1655
01:15:34,125 --> 01:15:35,850
One of them was

1656
01:15:35,850 --> 01:15:39,360
that when people were
victims of hate crimes,

1657
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:40,650
if they did call the police,

1658
01:15:40,650 --> 01:15:44,690
sometimes the police
wouldn't investigate.

1659
01:15:44,690 --> 01:15:47,770
They take their
information down,

1660
01:15:47,770 --> 01:15:51,070
and then they wouldn't
investigate the crime.

1661
01:15:51,070 --> 01:15:53,680
There were cases
where people were

1662
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:56,380
attacked or brutalized
by the police.

1663
01:15:56,380 --> 01:15:57,940
There were allegations of

1664
01:15:57,940 --> 01:15:58,990
police brutality toward

1665
01:15:58,990 --> 01:16:00,070
them because they
were gay or lesbian.

1666
01:16:00,070 --> 01:16:02,125
And through those meetings,

1667
01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:08,200
we were able to get
the police to add

1668
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:12,700
gay and lesbian sensitivity
training as part of

1669
01:16:12,700 --> 01:16:15,670
the Atlanta Police
Academy as part of

1670
01:16:15,670 --> 01:16:16,900
their standard training and

1671
01:16:16,900 --> 01:16:19,630
also the ongoing training
that officers went through.

1672
01:16:19,630 --> 01:16:21,790
We were able to get
them to address some of

1673
01:16:21,790 --> 01:16:24,550
the allegations of
police brutality,

1674
01:16:24,550 --> 01:16:27,625
attacks that had come
from police officers.

1675
01:16:27,625 --> 01:16:31,090
There was one guy that was
a hate crime victim that

1676
01:16:31,090 --> 01:16:32,440
I dealt with one time is one of

1677
01:16:32,440 --> 01:16:34,480
the people that he
had been attacked.

1678
01:16:34,480 --> 01:16:35,635
And after being attacked,

1679
01:16:35,635 --> 01:16:36,850
you can imagine you'd be really

1680
01:16:36,850 --> 01:16:38,425
angry that you'd been attacked.

1681
01:16:38,425 --> 01:16:40,120
And when the police
came, he was angry,

1682
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,000
and the police took his
anger as being directed at

1683
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,160
them and ended up

1684
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:47,470
telling him to calm down and
when he wouldn't calm down,

1685
01:16:47,470 --> 01:16:50,470
they put him in handcuffs
and he got even angrier,

1686
01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:53,290
and then they beat him up
with their nightclubs for

1687
01:16:53,290 --> 01:16:56,485
resisting arrest and took
him and put him in jail.

1688
01:16:56,485 --> 01:16:58,240
And here he'd been
a crime victim.

1689
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,220
So we were able to
get the police to

1690
01:17:00,220 --> 01:17:04,045
recognize some of those issues.

1691
01:17:04,045 --> 01:17:08,890
I mentioned the criminal justice
coordinating council and

1692
01:17:08,890 --> 01:17:11,710
their annual victims
assistance conferences

1693
01:17:11,710 --> 01:17:14,455
they had here in the
state of Georgia.

1694
01:17:14,455 --> 01:17:17,350
After attending
their conferences

1695
01:17:17,350 --> 01:17:19,270
and they found out
about what I was doing

1696
01:17:19,270 --> 01:17:21,880
they asked me to put on
a workshop one year at

1697
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,340
the criminal justice
coordinating council for

1698
01:17:24,340 --> 01:17:26,920
all the other victims
assistance persons,

1699
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:28,960
professionals around
the state to talk

1700
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:31,180
with them about these
particular issues for

1701
01:17:31,180 --> 01:17:32,740
gays and lesbians
dealing with gays and

1702
01:17:32,740 --> 01:17:35,875
lesbian crime victims
and hate crime victims.

1703
01:17:35,875 --> 01:17:40,180
So that was a way to get

1704
01:17:40,180 --> 01:17:44,230
some sensitivity to
special issues out

1705
01:17:44,230 --> 01:17:45,790
there among professionals who

1706
01:17:45,790 --> 01:17:47,830
were dealing with people
all over the state.

1707
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:57,390
There were also gays and
lesbians and historically,

1708
01:17:57,390 --> 01:17:58,425
and back at that time,

1709
01:17:58,425 --> 01:17:59,640
it was much worse than it is now

1710
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,860
people, again, we're closeted.

1711
01:18:01,860 --> 01:18:04,920
A lot of times they wouldn't
report they're victims of

1712
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,690
crime because crime reports
are public information.

1713
01:18:08,690 --> 01:18:10,840
They didn't want to,

1714
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,600
you left a gay bar
and some people

1715
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,885
mug you outside the gay bar
and rob you and beat you up.

1716
01:18:16,885 --> 01:18:18,775
And then you report it,

1717
01:18:18,775 --> 01:18:20,155
and then that report,

1718
01:18:20,155 --> 01:18:21,760
it becomes public information,

1719
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,325
and if it gets into the
newspaper or something,

1720
01:18:24,325 --> 01:18:26,020
then you might get fired from

1721
01:18:26,020 --> 01:18:29,230
your job because you
don't have any protection

1722
01:18:29,230 --> 01:18:32,650
for employment because you're

1723
01:18:32,650 --> 01:18:35,665
gay and lesbian and
still not in Georgia.

1724
01:18:35,665 --> 01:18:39,070
So people would sometimes

1725
01:18:39,070 --> 01:18:41,485
be victims of crimes
and not report them.

1726
01:18:41,485 --> 01:18:46,540
We provided a organization

1727
01:18:46,540 --> 01:18:48,850
that people could come to if
they were afraid to report,

1728
01:18:48,850 --> 01:18:50,050
and we could sometimes encourage

1729
01:18:50,050 --> 01:18:51,370
them to give
information to police,

1730
01:18:51,370 --> 01:18:53,590
but we could also sometimes

1731
01:18:53,590 --> 01:18:56,110
help them provide
information in a way that

1732
01:18:56,110 --> 01:18:57,610
would preserve some anonymity

1733
01:18:57,610 --> 01:18:59,230
for them so that
they could get over

1734
01:18:59,230 --> 01:19:03,175
this fear of being victimized.

1735
01:19:03,175 --> 01:19:06,490
And that really
made a difference.

1736
01:19:06,490 --> 01:19:08,410
If you look,

1737
01:19:08,410 --> 01:19:11,890
in the late '80s or early '90s.

1738
01:19:11,890 --> 01:19:15,340
The most likely place to
be mugged in the city of

1739
01:19:15,340 --> 01:19:17,590
Atlanta was in two
to three blocks of

1740
01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:20,080
a gay bar at bar closing time.

1741
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:22,390
There were people who
would come and go around

1742
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:24,985
gay bars and mug people.

1743
01:19:24,985 --> 01:19:25,840
They would come out,

1744
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:27,865
they'd been drinking,
they're a little tipsy,

1745
01:19:27,865 --> 01:19:30,250
and they knew that they
weren't going to get

1746
01:19:30,250 --> 01:19:32,845
caught because most of the
time people didn't report.

1747
01:19:32,845 --> 01:19:36,490
An example of that is there
was a bar called Burkhart's.

1748
01:19:36,490 --> 01:19:40,540
It's on Piedmont Road,
it's still there.

1749
01:19:40,540 --> 01:19:43,420
I had a guy that contacted me

1750
01:19:43,420 --> 01:19:45,865
and he had been robbed
at knife point,

1751
01:19:45,865 --> 01:19:48,370
leaving Burkhart's at two
o'clock in the morning.

1752
01:19:48,370 --> 01:19:50,440
Going out to his car,
some two guys came

1753
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:53,470
up with a knife to his
throat and robbed him,

1754
01:19:53,470 --> 01:19:55,795
and he was terrified and

1755
01:19:55,795 --> 01:19:58,240
he didn't want to report to
the police because again,

1756
01:19:58,240 --> 01:19:59,680
he was afraid of being outed and

1757
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,035
losing his job or something.

1758
01:20:02,035 --> 01:20:03,880
But he thought somebody
needed to know

1759
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:05,560
about this and he called
and told me about it.

1760
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,780
He said, I know this
isn't a hate crime,

1761
01:20:07,780 --> 01:20:12,580
so I took his information down

1762
01:20:12,580 --> 01:20:16,480
and talked to people

1763
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:18,850
in the police department
and told them about it.

1764
01:20:18,850 --> 01:20:21,700
And they they said,

1765
01:20:21,700 --> 01:20:23,185
we'll see what we
can do about it.

1766
01:20:23,185 --> 01:20:27,460
So they set up a stakeout in
the Burkhart's parking lot.

1767
01:20:27,460 --> 01:20:30,010
And at closing time,

1768
01:20:30,010 --> 01:20:32,110
the week after this had
happened to this guy,

1769
01:20:32,110 --> 01:20:33,130
I think it may have been like on

1770
01:20:33,130 --> 01:20:35,020
a Friday night or
a Saturday night.

1771
01:20:35,020 --> 01:20:36,955
So they had people out there,

1772
01:20:36,955 --> 01:20:38,650
you know, hidden in
the parking lot.

1773
01:20:38,650 --> 01:20:42,460
And sure enough, there was a
creek down behind the bar.

1774
01:20:42,460 --> 01:20:43,870
These guys came up from

1775
01:20:43,870 --> 01:20:46,270
the edge of the parking
lot from behind bushes in

1776
01:20:46,270 --> 01:20:48,130
this creek and came
up to somebody

1777
01:20:48,130 --> 01:20:50,410
with a knife and the police
came and arrested them.

1778
01:20:50,410 --> 01:20:54,145
When the police were
interrogating these guys,

1779
01:20:54,145 --> 01:20:57,000
they admitted to having been

1780
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,060
doing this for weeks and as
best they could remember,

1781
01:21:00,060 --> 01:21:03,180
they had robbed over 20 people

1782
01:21:03,180 --> 01:21:05,340
and not one of them had
reported to the police.

1783
01:21:05,340 --> 01:21:07,890
So we were able to

1784
01:21:07,890 --> 01:21:10,740
help make place a little
safer for people by

1785
01:21:10,740 --> 01:21:13,480
giving them somebody
they could talk to

1786
01:21:13,480 --> 01:21:15,145
without being afraid of being

1787
01:21:15,145 --> 01:21:17,590
outed and get the information
back to the police.

1788
01:21:17,590 --> 01:21:19,390
So that was useful.

1789
01:21:19,390 --> 01:21:22,270
A couple of other
things that we worked

1790
01:21:22,270 --> 01:21:26,110
on without as much success,

1791
01:21:26,110 --> 01:21:27,610
they didn't catch the
people that did it,

1792
01:21:27,610 --> 01:21:29,620
but there were murders.

1793
01:21:29,620 --> 01:21:31,570
There were gays and lesbian
people being murdered

1794
01:21:31,570 --> 01:21:33,640
and could have been hate

1795
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:38,380
crimes or might not have
been, but we worked.

1796
01:21:38,380 --> 01:21:39,850
There was a series and

1797
01:21:39,850 --> 01:21:41,980
probably a serial killer
that's never been caught

1798
01:21:41,980 --> 01:21:45,910
still that at least 14 people,

1799
01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:47,920
we know the person killed,

1800
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:53,485
and they were targeting
black female impersonators.

1801
01:21:53,485 --> 01:21:57,400
The Black nightclub had
young and they were usually

1802
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:02,410
older teen and young
20s gay men that did

1803
01:22:02,410 --> 01:22:03,970
the female impersonation shows

1804
01:22:03,970 --> 01:22:07,210
across and there was
someone who was going

1805
01:22:07,210 --> 01:22:12,160
to these shows and not sure
what happened exactly,

1806
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:13,570
meeting them after the show or

1807
01:22:13,570 --> 01:22:15,490
something but was
killing these people.

1808
01:22:15,490 --> 01:22:17,890
And over a period of
seven or eight years,

1809
01:22:17,890 --> 01:22:21,580
we started putting
together when people in

1810
01:22:21,580 --> 01:22:23,590
the Black community
and Black gay and

1811
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:25,720
lesbian community came in
and talked to us and said,

1812
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:27,130
there's these murders going on,

1813
01:22:27,130 --> 01:22:28,660
and nobody's doing
anything about it,

1814
01:22:28,660 --> 01:22:30,745
and the police weren't
investigating it.

1815
01:22:30,745 --> 01:22:34,645
At the time that we
were approached,

1816
01:22:34,645 --> 01:22:36,595
they knew of seven
or eight murders.

1817
01:22:36,595 --> 01:22:37,960
And we went to the police

1818
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:39,670
and started asking
about these murders,

1819
01:22:39,670 --> 01:22:41,890
and they were you see

1820
01:22:41,890 --> 01:22:44,830
sometimes you watch television
and the crime shows,

1821
01:22:44,830 --> 01:22:46,420
and a prostitute is murdered,

1822
01:22:46,420 --> 01:22:47,710
and the police don't care much

1823
01:22:47,710 --> 01:22:49,120
about it because it
was a prostitute.

1824
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:51,505
Well, they didn't care
a heck of a lot about

1825
01:22:51,505 --> 01:22:54,940
black female impersonators,
transgendered people.

1826
01:22:54,940 --> 01:22:57,370
The transgender people
are still probably

1827
01:22:57,370 --> 01:23:01,135
the most marginalized
group in our community.

1828
01:23:01,135 --> 01:23:04,150
And we were able to put
pressure on the police and say,

1829
01:23:04,150 --> 01:23:06,010
you need to start
looking into this.

1830
01:23:06,010 --> 01:23:08,410
And these murders look
like they're connected.

1831
01:23:08,410 --> 01:23:10,450
It's all targeting the same kind

1832
01:23:10,450 --> 01:23:12,415
of person in the same place.

1833
01:23:12,415 --> 01:23:14,905
And the police did
start investigating.

1834
01:23:14,905 --> 01:23:19,060
They put together a task force
to investigate the crimes.

1835
01:23:19,060 --> 01:23:20,950
And over time, they pull

1836
01:23:20,950 --> 01:23:23,350
other records we didn't
know about together,

1837
01:23:23,350 --> 01:23:25,045
and as I said, came up with

1838
01:23:25,045 --> 01:23:27,100
probably 14 murders
that had been

1839
01:23:27,100 --> 01:23:29,650
committed by the same
person, a serial killer.

1840
01:23:29,650 --> 01:23:31,720
And then the murders

1841
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:35,845
stopped for three or four
years and then started again.

1842
01:23:35,845 --> 01:23:38,650
And they told us
at the time that

1843
01:23:38,650 --> 01:23:41,560
probably the person
prison or moved away.

1844
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:42,820
But then they stopped again,

1845
01:23:42,820 --> 01:23:44,755
and they never have
caught anybody.

1846
01:23:44,755 --> 01:23:46,600
But at least they investigated

1847
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:47,770
it and they gave a little bit

1848
01:23:47,770 --> 01:23:51,340
of dignity to the persons
who had been killed.

1849
01:23:51,340 --> 01:23:53,500
Prior to this happening,

1850
01:23:53,500 --> 01:23:55,630
through us getting involved
and getting the police

1851
01:23:55,630 --> 01:23:58,165
and putting pressure on
them to investigate it,

1852
01:23:58,165 --> 01:24:00,265
one of the persons
who was killed

1853
01:24:00,265 --> 01:24:03,085
had been reported as
missing by friends,

1854
01:24:03,085 --> 01:24:06,920
and the police actually
went to her house.

1855
01:24:07,050 --> 01:24:11,740
She went by her nickname,

1856
01:24:11,740 --> 01:24:13,180
and the community was precious.

1857
01:24:13,180 --> 01:24:14,590
And I think there were articles

1858
01:24:14,590 --> 01:24:16,915
written in creative
loafing about her.

1859
01:24:16,915 --> 01:24:19,300
The police went to her house and

1860
01:24:19,300 --> 01:24:21,730
the door was ajar and
they went in and walked

1861
01:24:21,730 --> 01:24:23,920
around in the house
and there was

1862
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,200
nobody there and they said
they couldn't find anything,

1863
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,830
and they didn't know who
to contact other family,

1864
01:24:29,830 --> 01:24:31,840
they didn't know if there was
family around or whatever,

1865
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:33,685
and they just closed the case.

1866
01:24:33,685 --> 01:24:38,095
And maybe a week later,

1867
01:24:38,095 --> 01:24:40,570
neighbors called
the police and said

1868
01:24:40,570 --> 01:24:42,970
there's this horrible smell
coming from the house.

1869
01:24:42,970 --> 01:24:45,520
And Precious was dead
inside the house.

1870
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:47,985
The person had
murdered Precious,

1871
01:24:47,985 --> 01:24:49,950
had thrown laundry
on top of her,

1872
01:24:49,950 --> 01:24:51,300
and the police officers,

1873
01:24:51,300 --> 01:24:53,160
she was there in the house
when they walked through

1874
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:56,235
the house on the
missing persons report.

1875
01:24:56,235 --> 01:24:59,255
And in the autopsy report,

1876
01:24:59,255 --> 01:25:02,560
one of the things they found
was a boot mark on Precious,

1877
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:04,840
which they at first thought
might lead to the killer,

1878
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:06,280
and it turned out it
matched the boot at

1879
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,050
the police officers who had
walked through the house.

1880
01:25:08,050 --> 01:25:11,005
They had stepped on Precious
walking through the house.

1881
01:25:11,005 --> 01:25:12,820
And they

1882
01:25:12,820 --> 01:25:15,055
weren't particularly
interested in investigating.

1883
01:25:15,055 --> 01:25:19,540
So there was another string
of murders that happened in

1884
01:25:19,540 --> 01:25:21,370
Atlanta where someone was

1885
01:25:21,370 --> 01:25:23,050
targeting there was a street in

1886
01:25:23,050 --> 01:25:25,270
Atlanta called Cypress Street,

1887
01:25:25,270 --> 01:25:29,170
which back in the '80s and
'90s was a street where

1888
01:25:29,170 --> 01:25:30,865
male hustlers hang out

1889
01:25:30,865 --> 01:25:33,760
and people would go pick
up male hustlers there.

1890
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,635
And again,

1891
01:25:35,635 --> 01:25:37,540
people that the police
didn't really care about,

1892
01:25:37,540 --> 01:25:39,640
didn't want to have
much to do with.

1893
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:42,130
But there was somebody who

1894
01:25:42,130 --> 01:25:45,055
started murdering people
on Cypress Street,

1895
01:25:45,055 --> 01:25:49,165
and during a period of

1896
01:25:49,165 --> 01:25:51,010
two or three months there were

1897
01:25:51,010 --> 01:25:55,460
three different men that were
murdered on Cypress Street.

1898
01:25:55,470 --> 01:25:58,270
They would be found with
their pants down and

1899
01:25:58,270 --> 01:26:00,325
their heads smashed
in with a hammer.

1900
01:26:00,325 --> 01:26:02,560
Somebody was, apparently,

1901
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:04,480
they were hooking
up with a hustler,

1902
01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:06,940
and there was a pair of
people that were there and

1903
01:26:06,940 --> 01:26:10,195
somebody would come and bash
them the head and rob them.

1904
01:26:10,195 --> 01:26:11,620
And again,

1905
01:26:11,620 --> 01:26:15,100
the police they had

1906
01:26:15,100 --> 01:26:18,205
those murders recorded
and they had the reports,

1907
01:26:18,205 --> 01:26:19,450
but they didn't
have them assigned

1908
01:26:19,450 --> 01:26:20,740
to anybody to investigate.

1909
01:26:20,740 --> 01:26:22,330
So we were able to
put pressure on

1910
01:26:22,330 --> 01:26:25,460
homicide to go
investigate those.

1911
01:26:26,230 --> 01:26:28,700
And they investigated.
That's another one

1912
01:26:28,700 --> 01:26:30,020
they never found anybody,

1913
01:26:30,020 --> 01:26:32,675
but at least we got
them to investigate.

1914
01:26:32,675 --> 01:26:35,450
Part of that particular
set of murders,

1915
01:26:35,450 --> 01:26:39,440
we called a rally and
called out the police in

1916
01:26:39,440 --> 01:26:44,150
a protest and had speakers
that spoke about,

1917
01:26:44,150 --> 01:26:47,750
they gave some fiery
speeches about,enough.

1918
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:50,480
When are you going to
start protecting us?

1919
01:26:50,480 --> 01:26:52,370
We're citizens in
this community, too.

1920
01:26:52,370 --> 01:26:54,440
And we ended with

1921
01:26:54,440 --> 01:26:56,480
a candlelight ceremony for

1922
01:26:56,480 --> 01:27:00,290
the persons who had died that
they may have been there,

1923
01:27:00,290 --> 01:27:02,300
picking up hustlers, but they

1924
01:27:02,300 --> 01:27:04,220
still didn't deserve
to be murdered.

1925
01:27:04,220 --> 01:27:09,140
And I guess the
other thing that I

1926
01:27:09,140 --> 01:27:11,375
would say came out
of all of that is

1927
01:27:11,375 --> 01:27:14,000
there was this safe
sex initiative,

1928
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:15,590
for aid because of AIDS.

1929
01:27:15,590 --> 01:27:17,840
There's all this stuff to
talking to people about

1930
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:20,945
young gay men and
about having safe sex.

1931
01:27:20,945 --> 01:27:22,820
And I started going
around and talking to

1932
01:27:22,820 --> 01:27:25,070
organizations or groups
about safe sex, too.

1933
01:27:25,070 --> 01:27:29,735
But my talk was all about
being careful who you met,

1934
01:27:29,735 --> 01:27:30,980
who you went home with,

1935
01:27:30,980 --> 01:27:32,420
and what things you
could do to protect

1936
01:27:32,420 --> 01:27:34,325
yourself from being
a victim of crime.

1937
01:27:34,325 --> 01:27:35,945
One of the things I
brought with me as

1938
01:27:35,945 --> 01:27:39,110
a crime brochure about

1939
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:40,730
what to do if you're
a victim of crime,

1940
01:27:40,730 --> 01:27:42,140
how to prevent being
a victim of crime.

1941
01:27:42,140 --> 01:27:43,730
And we published a
little brochure that

1942
01:27:43,730 --> 01:27:45,680
we put out in all
the little bars

1943
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:48,440
and some of the gay
and lesbian businesses

1944
01:27:48,440 --> 01:27:51,935
for people to try to help make
people be a little safer.

1945
01:27:51,935 --> 01:27:54,920
That's a long answer.
I just get you.

1946
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,320
>> Well, can you tell
us more about any of

1947
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:00,590
your recent or current
community involvement?

1948
01:28:00,590 --> 01:28:05,135
>> I'm still working on
public safety issues.

1949
01:28:05,135 --> 01:28:08,190
After the break that I took,

1950
01:28:10,450 --> 01:28:13,760
I really enjoy being
involved in the community,

1951
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:15,620
and I get a lot of
satisfaction out of

1952
01:28:15,620 --> 01:28:18,455
feeling like I'm doing
something for my community.

1953
01:28:18,455 --> 01:28:21,650
So there came a point
where I decided I

1954
01:28:21,650 --> 01:28:24,230
wanted to get back
involved and do something.

1955
01:28:24,230 --> 01:28:26,510
It was really after my
partner Gary's death.

1956
01:28:26,510 --> 01:28:28,280
there was about a
year where I was

1957
01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:30,140
just a mess after that.

1958
01:28:30,140 --> 01:28:33,800
But when I started

1959
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:36,875
really getting over
that grieving process,

1960
01:28:36,875 --> 01:28:38,090
and I decided I wanted

1961
01:28:38,090 --> 01:28:39,380
to get back involved
in the community,

1962
01:28:39,380 --> 01:28:41,390
and that that would be a
good thing to do too to

1963
01:28:41,390 --> 01:28:44,400
help give me something
to focus on.

1964
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,060
So there was an organization

1965
01:28:46,060 --> 01:28:53,660
called The AIDs
Survival Project.

1966
01:28:53,660 --> 01:28:56,480
And they had a thing
called the Thrive Weekend.

1967
01:28:56,480 --> 01:28:58,820
Jeff Graham, who is currently

1968
01:28:58,820 --> 01:29:01,040
the head of Georgia Quality,

1969
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:03,500
was head of that
organization at the time.

1970
01:29:03,500 --> 01:29:07,760
The survival Project
originally had started out as

1971
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:12,080
the National
Association of Persons

1972
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,395
with AIDS and then changed and
became a survival Project.

1973
01:29:15,395 --> 01:29:17,930
But they did a number of things.

1974
01:29:17,930 --> 01:29:20,165
They helped advocate to get

1975
01:29:20,165 --> 01:29:23,675
medications for people who
couldn't afford medications,

1976
01:29:23,675 --> 01:29:28,040
housing for people with
AIDS that were disabled.

1977
01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:30,080
They lobbied at the legislature,

1978
01:29:30,080 --> 01:29:33,200
trying to get more
funds and both at

1979
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:35,630
the state legislature for

1980
01:29:35,630 --> 01:29:38,480
housing and to preserve
the Raya and White funds,

1981
01:29:38,480 --> 01:29:41,525
and I don't know if you're
familiar with those,

1982
01:29:41,525 --> 01:29:43,460
but federal funds for

1983
01:29:43,460 --> 01:29:46,520
the Raya White Act
that are given out to

1984
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:48,410
the states as block
grants to use

1985
01:29:48,410 --> 01:29:52,760
for drugs and housing and
things for people with AIDS.

1986
01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:57,890
But they also had these things
called thrive weekends.

1987
01:29:57,890 --> 01:30:04,040
And when people were
given an AIDS diagnosis,

1988
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:06,155
they usually expected
they were going to die.

1989
01:30:06,155 --> 01:30:08,465
if this is a death sentence,
you're going to die,

1990
01:30:08,465 --> 01:30:10,460
which changed over
time because of

1991
01:30:10,460 --> 01:30:14,075
the availability of
effective drugs.

1992
01:30:14,075 --> 01:30:17,105
But people still,

1993
01:30:17,105 --> 01:30:19,460
even though there was these
drugs that were available,

1994
01:30:19,460 --> 01:30:20,570
and you weren't
necessarily going to die.

1995
01:30:20,570 --> 01:30:23,015
That change from people

1996
01:30:23,015 --> 01:30:25,715
finding out that they
were HIV positive,

1997
01:30:25,715 --> 01:30:28,475
and they knowing
they could live.

1998
01:30:28,475 --> 01:30:31,460
That change to that
from thinking,

1999
01:30:31,460 --> 01:30:32,810
okay, this is a death sentence.

2000
01:30:32,810 --> 01:30:34,160
I'm going to die,
and I'm going to

2001
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,095
die horrible deaths with,

2002
01:30:36,095 --> 01:30:42,545
awful illnesses, that
took a while to sink in.

2003
01:30:42,545 --> 01:30:45,380
And I think even now
probably some people that

2004
01:30:45,380 --> 01:30:46,550
are finding out their HIV

2005
01:30:46,550 --> 01:30:48,920
positive probably think,
I'm going to die.

2006
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:51,650
The Thrive weekends were
designed to tell people,

2007
01:30:51,650 --> 01:30:53,525
Look, you're not going to die.

2008
01:30:53,525 --> 01:30:54,950
You can live.

2009
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:57,065
You can not only
live, you can thrive.

2010
01:30:57,065 --> 01:30:58,940
And it was a weekend
workshop that was

2011
01:30:58,940 --> 01:31:01,310
free put on by the
A Survival Project.

2012
01:31:01,310 --> 01:31:05,570
And we had doctors come in and
talk about medical issues.

2013
01:31:05,570 --> 01:31:09,350
We'd have people come
in that were experts

2014
01:31:09,350 --> 01:31:11,210
on Social Security and talk
about if you were sick

2015
01:31:11,210 --> 01:31:13,280
enough that you were
eligible for disability,

2016
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,110
about how to apply
for disability.

2017
01:31:15,110 --> 01:31:17,825
And talk about insurance
issues and dealing,

2018
01:31:17,825 --> 01:31:23,360
we had sessions that we talked
through about how to talk

2019
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:26,105
with people you met
that you wanted to date

2020
01:31:26,105 --> 01:31:30,275
about being HIV positive
had sessions on,

2021
01:31:30,275 --> 01:31:33,950
talking about in
discussing the pros and

2022
01:31:33,950 --> 01:31:35,510
cons of telling
people you worked

2023
01:31:35,510 --> 01:31:37,220
with and your friends
and your family,

2024
01:31:37,220 --> 01:31:39,440
and they had nutritionists

2025
01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:42,785
and came in and talked
about nutrition and

2026
01:31:42,785 --> 01:31:44,690
things to do that
would help enhance

2027
01:31:44,690 --> 01:31:48,500
your life and make you
live a better life.

2028
01:31:48,500 --> 01:31:50,660
So these drive
workshops were designed

2029
01:31:50,660 --> 01:31:54,350
to take people who thought
they were going to die,

2030
01:31:54,350 --> 01:31:55,460
which a lot of

2031
01:31:55,460 --> 01:31:56,600
times people who thought
they were going to

2032
01:31:56,600 --> 01:31:59,315
die and live and have
horrible illnesses.

2033
01:31:59,315 --> 01:32:04,445
So I volunteered to talk to
Jeff and we'd been friends.

2034
01:32:04,445 --> 01:32:06,755
Jeff was one of the
founders of Act Up in

2035
01:32:06,755 --> 01:32:09,320
Atlanta and then and
Jeff worked with Act Up.

2036
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:12,830
And then he became the director
of a survival project,

2037
01:32:12,830 --> 01:32:15,680
and now he's director
of Georgia Quality.

2038
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:17,690
He's one of the people
we're really lucky to have

2039
01:32:17,690 --> 01:32:20,135
in Georgia great person.

2040
01:32:20,135 --> 01:32:21,590
And he and I have been friends

2041
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:23,120
over the years. We
stayed friends.

2042
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:26,180
But he told me,

2043
01:32:26,180 --> 01:32:27,740
we have all these different
things we can do,

2044
01:32:27,740 --> 01:32:29,165
and we have this
volunteer coordinator.

2045
01:32:29,165 --> 01:32:31,190
Why don't you come talk to
our volunteer coordinator

2046
01:32:31,190 --> 01:32:32,630
and you can see what all we

2047
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:34,310
do and what things
you might like to do.

2048
01:32:34,310 --> 01:32:35,660
And so I ended up.

2049
01:32:35,660 --> 01:32:36,860
It was the Thrive workshops.

2050
01:32:36,860 --> 01:32:40,430
And part of the workshop,

2051
01:32:40,430 --> 01:32:42,110
they had all these
professionals come in,

2052
01:32:42,110 --> 01:32:44,240
the doctors and
nutritionists and lawyers

2053
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,790
and Social Security
disability people.

2054
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:48,815
But part of it is too,

2055
01:32:48,815 --> 01:32:50,450
was that these people

2056
01:32:50,450 --> 01:32:52,595
you're having to go through
this adjustment in life.

2057
01:32:52,595 --> 01:32:54,440
You think you've just
got a fatal illness

2058
01:32:54,440 --> 01:32:55,925
and you're worried about,

2059
01:32:55,925 --> 01:32:57,860
what's going to happen to
me and you're worrying

2060
01:32:57,860 --> 01:32:59,615
about who should I tell.

2061
01:32:59,615 --> 01:33:03,290
So part of it was you would
have the recessions on

2062
01:33:03,290 --> 01:33:05,750
nutrition and then a break and

2063
01:33:05,750 --> 01:33:08,645
then a session on legal issues,

2064
01:33:08,645 --> 01:33:11,060
and then you would break into
smaller groups, and there were

2065
01:33:11,060 --> 01:33:12,965
a little support groups
through the weekend.

2066
01:33:12,965 --> 01:33:14,855
And you get together,

2067
01:33:14,855 --> 01:33:16,580
you had the same people

2068
01:33:16,580 --> 01:33:18,155
in your support group
through the weekend.

2069
01:33:18,155 --> 01:33:19,220
You could sit through and talk

2070
01:33:19,220 --> 01:33:20,240
about what's going on with you

2071
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:22,910
emotionly and I became a
support group facilitator.

2072
01:33:22,910 --> 01:33:27,035
So support group facilitator

2073
01:33:27,035 --> 01:33:29,270
and set up person and clean

2074
01:33:29,270 --> 01:33:31,505
up and sweep them off the
floor afterwards person.

2075
01:33:31,505 --> 01:33:33,470
So I did that with

2076
01:33:33,470 --> 01:33:37,650
the A survival project
for about two years.

2077
01:33:37,780 --> 01:33:42,455
The A survival project
is no longer exists,

2078
01:33:42,455 --> 01:33:47,465
and I didn't do anything
else for a bit.

2079
01:33:47,465 --> 01:33:51,095
Jeff Graham became the
director of Georgia Quality,

2080
01:33:51,095 --> 01:33:54,170
and just the respect
that I have for him,

2081
01:33:54,170 --> 01:33:56,720
I started getting more
interested in Georgia Quality.

2082
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:58,400
I hadn't done a lot with
them, and they've been

2083
01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:00,650
a struggling organization that

2084
01:34:00,650 --> 01:34:02,870
had had leadership
and board issues,

2085
01:34:02,870 --> 01:34:04,100
and they were doing

2086
01:34:04,100 --> 01:34:06,425
some stuff for the
community, but not a lot.

2087
01:34:06,425 --> 01:34:07,910
And with Jeff Graham there,

2088
01:34:07,910 --> 01:34:09,350
I felt like they were
going to do more.

2089
01:34:09,350 --> 01:34:11,630
So I have volunteered

2090
01:34:11,630 --> 01:34:14,630
and I worked their booth

2091
01:34:14,630 --> 01:34:16,895
at Pride and worked their
booth at the Endman Park,

2092
01:34:16,895 --> 01:34:18,755
some of the
neighborhood festivals.

2093
01:34:18,755 --> 01:34:21,080
But the other thing
that I've done is to

2094
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:24,480
continue to be because I've

2095
01:34:24,580 --> 01:34:29,270
spent hours and
hours and hours in

2096
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:31,220
money out of my
own pocket getting

2097
01:34:31,220 --> 01:34:33,560
training on dealing
with victims of crime,

2098
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:38,510
and Rob Pitts was a Fulton
County Commissioner.

2099
01:34:38,510 --> 01:34:41,405
At one point he was in
the City Council Atlanta.

2100
01:34:41,405 --> 01:34:43,340
He had asked me to be
on the Metroropolitan,

2101
01:34:43,340 --> 01:34:47,450
Atlanta Crime Commission, and
I didn't do it at the time.

2102
01:34:47,450 --> 01:34:49,715
But I really got a
lot of expertise

2103
01:34:49,715 --> 01:34:53,180
on public safety issues
and crime issues,

2104
01:34:53,180 --> 01:34:54,560
especially relevant to

2105
01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:58,835
the gay and lesbian
community and hate crime.

2106
01:34:58,835 --> 01:35:02,870
So I'd volunteer for

2107
01:35:02,870 --> 01:35:07,040
different things that come up
that Georgia Quality needs,

2108
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:09,455
but I also try to stay available

2109
01:35:09,455 --> 01:35:14,900
as an organization expert
within the organization.

2110
01:35:14,900 --> 01:35:17,855
As a volunteer, an expert

2111
01:35:17,855 --> 01:35:21,020
on public safety and
health hate crime issues.

2112
01:35:21,020 --> 01:35:22,760
And so when something comes up,

2113
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:25,040
I'm a resource that
they can rely on.

2114
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,950
I review the
Department of Justice,

2115
01:35:27,950 --> 01:35:29,420
the FBI hate crime statistics

2116
01:35:29,420 --> 01:35:30,950
as they come out each
year and look for

2117
01:35:30,950 --> 01:35:32,525
trends in the statistics and

2118
01:35:32,525 --> 01:35:34,730
especially focused on
what's going on in

2119
01:35:34,730 --> 01:35:39,070
Georgia and provide a summary

2120
01:35:39,070 --> 01:35:41,275
of that information
to Georgia Quality.

2121
01:35:41,275 --> 01:35:43,540
There's not a lot of interest.

2122
01:35:43,540 --> 01:35:44,830
There's limited resources for

2123
01:35:44,830 --> 01:35:46,970
the organization
Georgia Quality,

2124
01:35:46,970 --> 01:35:50,810
and there's limited
resources for ADL and NWICP

2125
01:35:50,810 --> 01:35:52,970
and all the organizations

2126
01:35:52,970 --> 01:35:55,235
sort of have to decide
what they want to work on.

2127
01:35:55,235 --> 01:35:56,780
And hate crimes is not

2128
01:35:56,780 --> 01:35:58,430
one of the things that's
high priority right now.

2129
01:35:58,430 --> 01:36:01,420
So there's nobody
working on legislation,

2130
01:36:01,420 --> 01:36:02,980
but at a point,

2131
01:36:02,980 --> 01:36:05,890
if that comes up that there
is an opportunity to work

2132
01:36:05,890 --> 01:36:07,600
on an interest in

2133
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:09,895
getting hate crimes
bill passed in Georgia,

2134
01:36:09,895 --> 01:36:12,830
then I would be a resource and
somebody that could go and

2135
01:36:12,830 --> 01:36:14,480
testify before the
committees that

2136
01:36:14,480 --> 01:36:16,160
would hear it in
the legislature,

2137
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:19,830
for instance, and provide
expert witness information.

2138
01:36:20,230 --> 01:36:25,110
So I continue getting
that information.

2139
01:36:28,270 --> 01:36:32,750
Have met through
Georgia Quality.

2140
01:36:32,750 --> 01:36:36,140
Hate crimes has some
of the people that

2141
01:36:36,140 --> 01:36:39,815
are targeted more recently
has been immigrant groups.

2142
01:36:39,815 --> 01:36:42,350
The Sikh community has

2143
01:36:42,350 --> 01:36:45,680
had a temple up in Wisconsin
where the guy came

2144
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:51,365
in and shot people and
Sikh men wear turban hit.

2145
01:36:51,365 --> 01:36:54,590
For whatever reason,
the people who don't

2146
01:36:54,590 --> 01:36:56,600
like Arabs and Muslims

2147
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:58,340
think that Sikhs are
Arabs and Muslims.

2148
01:36:58,340 --> 01:37:00,575
And there's been a huge increase

2149
01:37:00,575 --> 01:37:03,785
in hate crimes
against immigrants,

2150
01:37:03,785 --> 01:37:07,970
Latinos and with all the
immigration talk that's going

2151
01:37:07,970 --> 01:37:10,880
on and against the
Sikh community

2152
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:12,665
and against Arab Americans.

2153
01:37:12,665 --> 01:37:15,500
Georgia quality had a meeting

2154
01:37:15,500 --> 01:37:17,540
with a person from the
Department of Justice

2155
01:37:17,540 --> 01:37:19,850
that asked meet and talk because

2156
01:37:19,850 --> 01:37:22,805
they knew we had some
expertise on hate crimes.

2157
01:37:22,805 --> 01:37:26,340
This would have been in 2012

2158
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,690
and asked me to attend
the meeting with

2159
01:37:29,690 --> 01:37:31,700
the Person Department
of Justice talking

2160
01:37:31,700 --> 01:37:33,680
about how we might
provide some of

2161
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:36,500
our expertise and reach out

2162
01:37:36,500 --> 01:37:38,900
to and work with the
immigrant community

2163
01:37:38,900 --> 01:37:41,480
and the Sikh community
on hate crimes.

2164
01:37:41,480 --> 01:37:45,350
And so we've had some
meetings to provide

2165
01:37:45,350 --> 01:37:47,570
some of our information
and exchange ideas

2166
01:37:47,570 --> 01:37:50,460
with them and with the
Justice Department.

2167
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:56,190
The other thing that I did.

2168
01:37:56,950 --> 01:37:59,330
All the time I've worked

2169
01:37:59,330 --> 01:38:00,965
with and talked with
the police officers,

2170
01:38:00,965 --> 01:38:02,060
they have a thing called the

2171
01:38:02,060 --> 01:38:03,725
Atlanta Citizens Police Academy.

2172
01:38:03,725 --> 01:38:05,150
I never ever attended it

2173
01:38:05,150 --> 01:38:07,310
and I actually attended
it this last year.

2174
01:38:07,310 --> 01:38:10,220
It's ten weeks of
training one night a

2175
01:38:10,220 --> 01:38:14,840
week for with the Atlanta
Citizens. Police Academy,

2176
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:16,730
and you go out to
the Police Academy,

2177
01:38:16,730 --> 01:38:18,335
and they bring in

2178
01:38:18,335 --> 01:38:22,130
the people from every part
of the police department.

2179
01:38:22,130 --> 01:38:24,890
And go through and talk
to you about how they do

2180
01:38:24,890 --> 01:38:28,025
their jobs and the
legal framework

2181
01:38:28,025 --> 01:38:29,840
that surrounds them and give you

2182
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:31,670
expertise on what the police do

2183
01:38:31,670 --> 01:38:33,470
and why they do it
the way they do

2184
01:38:33,470 --> 01:38:35,540
and how the police
department is organized.

2185
01:38:35,540 --> 01:38:37,100
And through that, I've got to

2186
01:38:37,100 --> 01:38:39,050
meet the current set
of police chiefs

2187
01:38:39,050 --> 01:38:41,270
and deputy chiefs and

2188
01:38:41,270 --> 01:38:44,615
zone commanders and the head
of homicide and whatever.

2189
01:38:44,615 --> 01:38:46,790
So I have that sort of

2190
01:38:46,790 --> 01:38:49,100
expertise there
waiting if something

2191
01:38:49,100 --> 01:38:50,825
comes up where we need somebody

2192
01:38:50,825 --> 01:38:53,435
to interact from our
community, I'm available.

2193
01:38:53,435 --> 01:38:57,230
And then, most recently,

2194
01:38:57,230 --> 01:38:59,640
Last year, Rob Pitts,

2195
01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:01,375
as a Folk County
Commissioner asked

2196
01:39:01,375 --> 01:39:03,310
contacted me again
and asked me to be

2197
01:39:03,310 --> 01:39:05,695
on the Citizen Advisory Board

2198
01:39:05,695 --> 01:39:07,510
to the Folk County 911 system.

2199
01:39:07,510 --> 01:39:10,450
So I'm a appointed member

2200
01:39:10,450 --> 01:39:12,970
of the 911 Advisory
Board now.

2201
01:39:12,970 --> 01:39:16,245
So that's what I do now.

2202
01:39:16,245 --> 01:39:20,150
Not a whole lot. It
sounds like a lot.

2203
01:39:20,150 --> 01:39:25,175
But it's, once a month
meetings and stuff.

2204
01:39:25,175 --> 01:39:28,415
I don't do nearly as
much as I used to.

2205
01:39:28,415 --> 01:39:31,070
But there's a lot of other
people who do stuff now, too.

2206
01:39:31,070 --> 01:39:32,180
There was a time
when there weren't

2207
01:39:32,180 --> 01:39:33,380
very many people doing stuff,

2208
01:39:33,380 --> 01:39:35,670
so we had to do a lot more.

2209
01:39:35,770 --> 01:39:38,570
>> What are your perceptions
on current activism

2210
01:39:38,570 --> 01:39:40,650
in the gay community?

2211
01:39:42,190 --> 01:39:45,810
>> It's grown up. It's matured.

2212
01:39:46,780 --> 01:39:50,720
Activism time that I started,

2213
01:39:50,720 --> 01:39:53,940
and then you go back to
the Stonewall riots.

2214
01:39:54,370 --> 01:39:59,675
Activism started as people

2215
01:39:59,675 --> 01:40:02,270
getting angry and
saying, enough,

2216
01:40:02,270 --> 01:40:04,310
we're tired of being
treated like this,

2217
01:40:04,310 --> 01:40:09,995
and it was pushing back and
it was expressions of anger.

2218
01:40:09,995 --> 01:40:13,250
And a lot of it was

2219
01:40:13,250 --> 01:40:17,150
demonstrations and street
stuff and marches and rallies.

2220
01:40:17,150 --> 01:40:20,640
And some of that still goes on.

2221
01:40:21,820 --> 01:40:25,520
And also, it was

2222
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,880
done by groups of people
who got together and said,

2223
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:32,225
Did you see what happened
yesterday? I hate that.

2224
01:40:32,225 --> 01:40:33,545
We should do something about it.

2225
01:40:33,545 --> 01:40:35,690
Yeah, let's have
a rally and group

2226
01:40:35,690 --> 01:40:38,210
of friends get together
and you'd have a rally.

2227
01:40:38,210 --> 01:40:42,080
Activism, there's some of
that still that goes on,

2228
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:45,560
but what's happened is
our community has grown.

2229
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:49,580
A lot of the activists who
were activists in their 20s,

2230
01:40:49,580 --> 01:40:51,005
Jeff Graham, I mentioned,

2231
01:40:51,005 --> 01:40:53,510
who's been an activist
his whole life, I think,

2232
01:40:53,510 --> 01:40:54,890
since he got out of college

2233
01:40:54,890 --> 01:40:57,590
and founder Act Up
here in Atlanta.

2234
01:40:57,590 --> 01:40:59,510
Now he's the executive director

2235
01:40:59,510 --> 01:41:00,860
of Georgia quality Project,

2236
01:41:00,860 --> 01:41:03,440
and he goes to the
legislature and lobbies,

2237
01:41:03,440 --> 01:41:05,825
and he knows how to write bills,

2238
01:41:05,825 --> 01:41:07,460
and he knows who

2239
01:41:07,460 --> 01:41:09,320
the people are that support
us and who they don't.

2240
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:10,430
He knows how to talk to people,

2241
01:41:10,430 --> 01:41:12,680
and he knows how to
train and other people.

2242
01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:16,790
And we're activism in the days

2243
01:41:16,790 --> 01:41:18,350
when we were marginalized and

2244
01:41:18,350 --> 01:41:21,755
invisible and people it was
okay to treat us badly.

2245
01:41:21,755 --> 01:41:25,280
We're reactive and
we were angry,

2246
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:27,680
and we didn't have a
place at the table,

2247
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,170
so we made lots of noise and
had big demonstrations and

2248
01:41:30,170 --> 01:41:33,020
rallies and we're not going
to let you just ignore us.

2249
01:41:33,020 --> 01:41:34,370
We're going to be
so noisy and loud,

2250
01:41:34,370 --> 01:41:35,570
you have to listen to us,

2251
01:41:35,570 --> 01:41:37,160
and we're going to
make so much noise,

2252
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:39,215
the media has to listen to us.

2253
01:41:39,215 --> 01:41:42,160
We've grown past that.

2254
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:45,700
Now we have people who we
have a seat at the table.

2255
01:41:45,700 --> 01:41:48,010
We have people who
do listen to us.

2256
01:41:48,010 --> 01:41:50,170
We have people who
are friendly to us.

2257
01:41:50,170 --> 01:41:51,970
Who are political leaders and

2258
01:41:51,970 --> 01:41:54,250
community leaders and
religious leaders.

2259
01:41:54,250 --> 01:41:57,620
And we have organizations

2260
01:41:57,620 --> 01:41:59,870
that they've got
budgets and directors,

2261
01:41:59,870 --> 01:42:02,060
and we have people that know how

2262
01:42:02,060 --> 01:42:04,460
to write laws and how
to access things.

2263
01:42:04,460 --> 01:42:06,995
So it's different now that

2264
01:42:06,995 --> 01:42:10,280
a lot of the activism
now is being

2265
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:13,880
done through
organizations and by

2266
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:18,455
organizations organized
by professionals.

2267
01:42:18,455 --> 01:42:21,695
Who are, to some extent,

2268
01:42:21,695 --> 01:42:23,390
have a seat at the table and

2269
01:42:23,390 --> 01:42:25,520
are working within the system,

2270
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:29,120
instead of being
angry people who are

2271
01:42:29,120 --> 01:42:30,710
marginalized and left out

2272
01:42:30,710 --> 01:42:32,810
who are working
outside the system.

2273
01:42:32,810 --> 01:42:35,910
>> And where do you see
it heading in the future?

2274
01:42:38,140 --> 01:42:44,850
>> I went to the
Netherlands, 1996.

2275
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:50,060
David and I went to the
Netherlands during the Olympics.

2276
01:42:50,060 --> 01:42:51,380
We rented our condo out to

2277
01:42:51,380 --> 01:42:52,910
the German Olympic corporate

2278
01:42:52,910 --> 01:42:54,320
sponsors of the
German Olympic team,

2279
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:56,150
and we stayed here
part of the Olympics,

2280
01:42:56,150 --> 01:42:57,230
but we went to London and

2281
01:42:57,230 --> 01:42:59,165
Amsterdam with some
of that money.

2282
01:42:59,165 --> 01:43:01,175
And while we were there,

2283
01:43:01,175 --> 01:43:04,925
I met this young guy
who was an editor

2284
01:43:04,925 --> 01:43:09,275
of the gay newspaper
in Amsterdam.

2285
01:43:09,275 --> 01:43:11,960
And talked with him

2286
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:14,210
quite a bit and David and
I both talked with him,

2287
01:43:14,210 --> 01:43:16,310
but he and I connected mostly.

2288
01:43:16,310 --> 01:43:17,510
I don't think David was as

2289
01:43:17,510 --> 01:43:19,310
interested in talk
to him as I was.

2290
01:43:19,310 --> 01:43:21,125
But we talked a whole lot

2291
01:43:21,125 --> 01:43:25,400
and spent part of an evening
and part of the next day.

2292
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:26,690
He came and he said,
Let me show you

2293
01:43:26,690 --> 01:43:28,580
some places around in Amsterdam.

2294
01:43:28,580 --> 01:43:30,770
And in the process of talking,

2295
01:43:30,770 --> 01:43:35,330
I'm guessing he was 26,

2296
01:43:35,330 --> 01:43:37,580
27 somewhere in there.

2297
01:43:37,580 --> 01:43:39,860
I asked him at some point.

2298
01:43:39,860 --> 01:43:42,335
I said, are you out
to your family?

2299
01:43:42,335 --> 01:43:44,420
He says, What? I said,

2300
01:43:44,420 --> 01:43:45,770
Are you out to your family?

2301
01:43:45,770 --> 01:43:48,050
What? What do you mean out?

2302
01:43:48,050 --> 01:43:50,435
Well, do they know
that you're gay?

2303
01:43:50,435 --> 01:43:52,250
Well, of course
they know I'm gay.

2304
01:43:52,250 --> 01:43:54,200
And later on, talking
to some more,

2305
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:56,990
I said, how was it when you
came out to your family?

2306
01:43:56,990 --> 01:43:58,970
He says, What's this out again?

2307
01:43:58,970 --> 01:44:00,770
I said, Well, you
know, when you told

2308
01:44:00,770 --> 01:44:02,660
them that you're gay,
was it difficult?

2309
01:44:02,660 --> 01:44:03,995
He said, I didn't
have to tell them.

2310
01:44:03,995 --> 01:44:06,995
They just know. No,
it's not difficult.

2311
01:44:06,995 --> 01:44:09,125
He didn't get the questions.

2312
01:44:09,125 --> 01:44:13,910
The Netherlands has
been gay friendly,

2313
01:44:13,910 --> 01:44:15,320
and people have accepted

2314
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:16,640
gays and lesbians
to the Netherlands

2315
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:21,125
probably longer than
most other countries.

2316
01:44:21,125 --> 01:44:23,180
It happened earlier
in the Netherlands

2317
01:44:23,180 --> 01:44:25,010
for reasons, I don't know.

2318
01:44:25,010 --> 01:44:26,930
And Frank house is in Amsterdam.

2319
01:44:26,930 --> 01:44:28,130
And Frank was a lesibian.

2320
01:44:28,130 --> 01:44:30,260
A lot of people don't know that.

2321
01:44:30,260 --> 01:44:35,240
But, these questions didn't
make a lot of sense to him.

2322
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:38,045
He didn't have to come
out because there

2323
01:44:38,045 --> 01:44:41,360
wasn't anything to hide
because it's perfectly okay.

2324
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:45,890
And his experience of life
is very different from what

2325
01:44:45,890 --> 01:44:47,630
mine has been as a gay person

2326
01:44:47,630 --> 01:44:50,120
and even gay people
are here now.

2327
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:53,660
And that's where I see
things going in the future.

2328
01:44:53,660 --> 01:44:57,830
I think that we've

2329
01:44:57,830 --> 01:45:00,995
had this gay community and
we've had gay culture.

2330
01:45:00,995 --> 01:45:03,220
And I think to some extent,

2331
01:45:03,220 --> 01:45:04,300
it's going to disappear,

2332
01:45:04,300 --> 01:45:06,430
and we're going to
assimilate and be part of

2333
01:45:06,430 --> 01:45:09,880
the bigger culture and
become a non issue.

2334
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:12,640
That may not happen as
much as it's happened

2335
01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:15,160
in the Netherlands because

2336
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:17,530
of the attitudes of people

2337
01:45:17,530 --> 01:45:21,100
who don't feel comfortable with,

2338
01:45:21,100 --> 01:45:23,230
in some cases, don't
like gays and lesbians

2339
01:45:23,230 --> 01:45:25,765
because of their
religious beliefs.

2340
01:45:25,765 --> 01:45:33,140
And I think the evangelical
Christian community

2341
01:45:33,140 --> 01:45:35,165
in the United States

2342
01:45:35,165 --> 01:45:38,810
probably keep that from

2343
01:45:38,810 --> 01:45:42,050
happening as quickly as
I'd like for it to happen,

2344
01:45:42,050 --> 01:45:44,300
but that's where
eventually things will go.

2345
01:45:44,300 --> 01:45:46,580
And even they will come around.

2346
01:45:46,580 --> 01:45:50,150
My brother is gay also,
my younger brother,

2347
01:45:50,150 --> 01:45:53,660
Jay and his partner,

2348
01:45:53,660 --> 01:45:56,360
who they got married after

2349
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:59,420
on like two days after
the California law.

2350
01:45:59,420 --> 01:46:01,220
They live in Long
Beach, California.

2351
01:46:01,220 --> 01:46:03,915
Two days after the
California law,

2352
01:46:03,915 --> 01:46:05,770
the judge released the stay and

2353
01:46:05,770 --> 01:46:07,420
said people can start
getting married again.

2354
01:46:07,420 --> 01:46:09,145
If the law was overturned.

2355
01:46:09,145 --> 01:46:13,525
His partner is a United
Church of Christ minister,

2356
01:46:13,525 --> 01:46:18,320
and my sister and

2357
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:20,360
niece and nephew are
evangelical Christians,

2358
01:46:20,360 --> 01:46:23,885
and young evangelical
Christians have gay friends,

2359
01:46:23,885 --> 01:46:27,935
and they don't understand
why they're some of them are

2360
01:46:27,935 --> 01:46:32,930
actually upset with
the religious teaching

2361
01:46:32,930 --> 01:46:34,850
that they've grown up with
because they don't understand

2362
01:46:34,850 --> 01:46:37,145
why their friends are
being treated so badly.

2363
01:46:37,145 --> 01:46:39,720
So even they'll come around.

2364
01:46:40,030 --> 01:46:42,170
>> Can you talk about how these

2365
01:46:42,170 --> 01:46:43,970
epidemic has impacted your life?

2366
01:46:43,970 --> 01:46:52,480
>> Oh, God. It's been an
impact in lots of ways.

2367
01:46:52,480 --> 01:46:56,085
When I was living in Des Moines,

2368
01:46:56,085 --> 01:46:58,815
Iowa, I hadn't moved
out this way yet.

2369
01:46:58,815 --> 01:47:02,445
When I first started reading
about the gay cancer.

2370
01:47:02,445 --> 01:47:06,180
The new gay men were getting
this disease and dying.

2371
01:47:06,180 --> 01:47:08,130
They didn't know what
the disease was.

2372
01:47:08,130 --> 01:47:10,110
It was just kind of scary,

2373
01:47:10,110 --> 01:47:11,340
but it was this
little fringe thing,

2374
01:47:11,340 --> 01:47:13,515
and I kind of knew about it.

2375
01:47:13,515 --> 01:47:15,975
You'd read about it in The
Advocate or something,

2376
01:47:15,975 --> 01:47:18,090
but I didn't worry

2377
01:47:18,090 --> 01:47:20,685
a lot about it because
didn't know what it was.

2378
01:47:20,685 --> 01:47:23,715
And thought, well, I don't know,

2379
01:47:23,715 --> 01:47:25,380
it was happening to

2380
01:47:25,380 --> 01:47:28,605
gay men mainly in San
Francisco and New York.

2381
01:47:28,605 --> 01:47:33,075
By the time I moved out toward
this part of the country.

2382
01:47:33,075 --> 01:47:35,475
I was in Knoxville before
I came to Atlanta,

2383
01:47:35,475 --> 01:47:37,020
and there was a guy
that I met and I

2384
01:47:37,020 --> 01:47:39,015
dated while I was in Knoxville,

2385
01:47:39,015 --> 01:47:42,210
a real nice guy.

2386
01:47:42,210 --> 01:47:44,235
His name was Joe Nemus,

2387
01:47:44,235 --> 01:47:49,575
and after I moved
here, he became sick,

2388
01:47:49,575 --> 01:47:53,430
and there were beginning

2389
01:47:53,430 --> 01:47:56,430
to be some experimental
drugs available,

2390
01:47:56,430 --> 01:47:57,810
but they were really strong.

2391
01:47:57,810 --> 01:47:59,100
They had bad side effects,

2392
01:47:59,100 --> 01:48:03,075
and he got what's called
neuropathy in his feet.

2393
01:48:03,075 --> 01:48:05,700
It hurt horribly to stand up.

2394
01:48:05,700 --> 01:48:07,005
He couldn't drive anymore.

2395
01:48:07,005 --> 01:48:10,590
He went from being
this young, happy,

2396
01:48:10,590 --> 01:48:14,610
healthy guy to being
very debilitated,

2397
01:48:14,610 --> 01:48:17,910
couldn't do anything in
six or seven months,

2398
01:48:17,910 --> 01:48:20,770
and in 10 months he was dead.

2399
01:48:22,340 --> 01:48:27,225
So there was this sadness
and then here in Atlanta,

2400
01:48:27,225 --> 01:48:29,685
when I was involved with
friends in Atlanta,

2401
01:48:29,685 --> 01:48:34,290
the organization Gay Lesbian
Social Recreational Group,

2402
01:48:34,290 --> 01:48:36,090
we had 450,

2403
01:48:36,090 --> 01:48:39,210
500 members, and there

2404
01:48:39,210 --> 01:48:42,390
was somebody from our group
during the late '80s,

2405
01:48:42,390 --> 01:48:46,980
early '90s that was
dying all the time.

2406
01:48:46,980 --> 01:48:51,150
It became scary,
worrying about it,

2407
01:48:51,150 --> 01:48:53,310
but also it was

2408
01:48:53,310 --> 01:48:56,370
taking up resources and
energy in our community.

2409
01:48:56,370 --> 01:48:58,080
All of a sudden, instead of

2410
01:48:58,080 --> 01:49:01,450
fighting to be treated fairly,

2411
01:49:01,460 --> 01:49:05,985
not discriminated at work,

2412
01:49:05,985 --> 01:49:09,930
all of our efforts
started going into trying

2413
01:49:09,930 --> 01:49:11,970
to raise money for

2414
01:49:11,970 --> 01:49:14,910
AIDS research and provide
support for people with AIDS.

2415
01:49:14,910 --> 01:49:17,220
And it was something
that just really

2416
01:49:17,220 --> 01:49:20,625
drained the community and
drained the resources.

2417
01:49:20,625 --> 01:49:24,570
But it also, I was

2418
01:49:24,570 --> 01:49:26,970
saying earlier about most people

2419
01:49:26,970 --> 01:49:29,385
are gays and lesbian apolitical.

2420
01:49:29,385 --> 01:49:32,190
Being apolitical goes away

2421
01:49:32,190 --> 01:49:34,575
when you have to
fight for your life.

2422
01:49:34,575 --> 01:49:39,690
And AIDS activism
really energized and

2423
01:49:39,690 --> 01:49:43,170
helped build the activism

2424
01:49:43,170 --> 01:49:46,590
within the gay community to
work for all kinds of stuff.

2425
01:49:46,590 --> 01:49:48,510
But there was a
period there where

2426
01:49:48,510 --> 01:49:50,400
it was just so difficult.

2427
01:49:50,400 --> 01:49:52,170
We were going to memorial

2428
01:49:52,170 --> 01:49:53,430
service or a funeral, it seemed,

2429
01:49:53,430 --> 01:49:55,350
like at least once a
month and sometimes

2430
01:49:55,350 --> 01:49:58,320
more than one a month for
a period of several years.

2431
01:49:58,320 --> 01:50:03,690
And I had close friends
that I saw that died,

2432
01:50:03,690 --> 01:50:06,210
and some of them some
pretty awful deaths,

2433
01:50:06,210 --> 01:50:07,920
the infections and diseases

2434
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:09,840
that they would get when their
immune systems broke down.

2435
01:50:09,840 --> 01:50:12,490
Some of them were
really just horrible.

2436
01:50:14,090 --> 01:50:18,330
And I saw people
treated, in some cases,

2437
01:50:18,330 --> 01:50:20,955
wonderfully by their
families when they got AIDS,

2438
01:50:20,955 --> 01:50:22,260
in other cases, families

2439
01:50:22,260 --> 01:50:23,910
that didn't want to have
anything to do with them.

2440
01:50:23,910 --> 01:50:26,520
There was a guy that
was an editor of

2441
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:30,300
the Gay Center
newspaper in Atlanta.

2442
01:50:30,300 --> 01:50:31,380
There used to be a place called

2443
01:50:31,380 --> 01:50:32,985
Atlanta Gay Center
on 12th Street.

2444
01:50:32,985 --> 01:50:34,980
And they had a newspaper
that they put out,

2445
01:50:34,980 --> 01:50:37,440
it was pre-Southern Voice, etc.

2446
01:50:37,440 --> 01:50:39,165
And his name was Ralph Ginn,

2447
01:50:39,165 --> 01:50:42,030
G-I-N-N, and Ralph
was the editor.

2448
01:50:42,030 --> 01:50:43,980
And when I worked

2449
01:50:43,980 --> 01:50:45,930
on the help line at the
Atlanta Gay Center,

2450
01:50:45,930 --> 01:50:47,115
I became friends with Ralph.

2451
01:50:47,115 --> 01:50:48,480
He would be there a
lot of the evenings,

2452
01:50:48,480 --> 01:50:51,270
same evenings that
my shift was on

2453
01:50:51,270 --> 01:50:52,710
the helpline working on

2454
01:50:52,710 --> 01:50:54,990
the newspaper and
Ralph got AIDS,

2455
01:50:54,990 --> 01:50:58,425
and his family didn't
know he was gay.

2456
01:50:58,425 --> 01:50:59,610
And when he became so sick,

2457
01:50:59,610 --> 01:51:01,470
he was in the hospital, he
told them not only he was gay,

2458
01:51:01,470 --> 01:51:03,075
that he had AIDS, and they said,

2459
01:51:03,075 --> 01:51:04,800
we don't want to have
anything to do with you.

2460
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:06,210
And they not only said they

2461
01:51:06,210 --> 01:51:07,830
didn't want anything
to do with him,

2462
01:51:07,830 --> 01:51:10,890
they went to all his
extended family, to uncles,

2463
01:51:10,890 --> 01:51:14,920
and aunts, and brothers
and they said,

2464
01:51:14,920 --> 01:51:16,790
"He's not our son anymore.

2465
01:51:16,790 --> 01:51:18,110
We're not having
anything to do with him.

2466
01:51:18,110 --> 01:51:19,490
And if you have anything
to do with him,

2467
01:51:19,490 --> 01:51:21,050
we won't have anything
to do with you."

2468
01:51:21,050 --> 01:51:22,640
And they put pressure
on the rest,

2469
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:26,285
his whole extended family to
shut him out and disown him.

2470
01:51:26,285 --> 01:51:28,840
And Ralph was actually,

2471
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:31,155
there was a Time
Magazine article

2472
01:51:31,155 --> 01:51:34,200
about what was happening with

2473
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:36,435
AIDS and how badly
people were being

2474
01:51:36,435 --> 01:51:39,570
treated that had AIDS.

2475
01:51:39,570 --> 01:51:41,490
Ralph was one of
the people featured

2476
01:51:41,490 --> 01:51:43,380
in the Time Magazine article.

2477
01:51:43,380 --> 01:51:48,015
And there was not a person
from his family when he died,

2478
01:51:48,015 --> 01:51:50,450
but he had 25 or 30 friends

2479
01:51:50,450 --> 01:51:52,790
from the community that
were there with him.

2480
01:51:52,790 --> 01:51:59,550
And his family had

2481
01:51:59,550 --> 01:52:01,350
no interest even of picking up

2482
01:52:01,350 --> 01:52:04,350
his body or planning his
funeral or anything.

2483
01:52:04,350 --> 01:52:07,365
We put paperwork in place

2484
01:52:07,365 --> 01:52:10,560
to allow friends to
take his remains,

2485
01:52:10,560 --> 01:52:13,950
and it was sad what
his family did to him.

2486
01:52:13,950 --> 01:52:17,280
So things like that that
we had to live with.

2487
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:19,255
It was kind of weird.

2488
01:52:19,255 --> 01:52:22,160
I don't know if you have
grandparents that are living,

2489
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:24,310
but as your grandparents,

2490
01:52:24,310 --> 01:52:26,610
they're older and
you go visit them,

2491
01:52:26,610 --> 01:52:28,740
and you haven't seen
them in a while,

2492
01:52:28,740 --> 01:52:31,035
and you sit down and
you start talking,

2493
01:52:31,035 --> 01:52:33,510
and invariably,
they're getting older,

2494
01:52:33,510 --> 01:52:34,755
and their friends are dying.

2495
01:52:34,755 --> 01:52:38,325
And there's, do you
remember Julie Smith?

2496
01:52:38,325 --> 01:52:41,175
She passed away two months ago.

2497
01:52:41,175 --> 01:52:43,485
And do you remember Sam?

2498
01:52:43,485 --> 01:52:45,060
He got cancer.

2499
01:52:45,060 --> 01:52:46,980
I don't know if you
remember, he died of cancer.

2500
01:52:46,980 --> 01:52:49,815
And you'd hear this discussion.

2501
01:52:49,815 --> 01:52:52,950
My friends in their 20s
and 30s talk like that.

2502
01:52:52,950 --> 01:52:56,280
We get together and say,
did you hear about,

2503
01:52:56,280 --> 01:52:58,320
and it occurred to me at
one point it's like we

2504
01:52:58,320 --> 01:53:01,485
become old early in life,

2505
01:53:01,485 --> 01:53:03,690
because all our friends
are already dying.

2506
01:53:03,690 --> 01:53:05,100
That doesn't usually happen to

2507
01:53:05,100 --> 01:53:06,600
people until they're
a lot older.

2508
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:09,600
[LAUGHTER] But that's what life

2509
01:53:09,600 --> 01:53:11,145
was like there for a while.

2510
01:53:11,145 --> 01:53:17,910
So it changed a lot

2511
01:53:17,910 --> 01:53:21,180
of things because of those
kind of experiences.

2512
01:53:21,180 --> 01:53:23,820
It gave us something to
focus on and work for.

2513
01:53:23,820 --> 01:53:26,070
I was mentioning about
Public Safety stuff earlier,

2514
01:53:26,070 --> 01:53:28,140
and I left actually,

2515
01:53:28,140 --> 01:53:30,180
one of the things off
that we accomplished in

2516
01:53:30,180 --> 01:53:33,885
the Public Safety Committee
with the City Council.

2517
01:53:33,885 --> 01:53:35,280
There was a guy that was head of

2518
01:53:35,280 --> 01:53:38,250
the Department of
Corrections, Tom Pocock.

2519
01:53:38,250 --> 01:53:39,660
And really nice guy,

2520
01:53:39,660 --> 01:53:41,190
and he was willing
to listen to us.

2521
01:53:41,190 --> 01:53:43,395
He was a very open
minded person.

2522
01:53:43,395 --> 01:53:44,490
And if you told
him something was

2523
01:53:44,490 --> 01:53:45,720
a problem, he would listen,

2524
01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:46,950
and if he understood it

2525
01:53:46,950 --> 01:53:48,645
was a problem, he'd
try to fix it.

2526
01:53:48,645 --> 01:53:52,290
And the early drugs
that came about,

2527
01:53:52,290 --> 01:53:54,270
they had these really
tight schedules.

2528
01:53:54,270 --> 01:53:57,735
You had to take two of
these every four hours,

2529
01:53:57,735 --> 01:54:00,885
and if you missed it by
more than a couple hours,

2530
01:54:00,885 --> 01:54:02,550
you would start building
out resistance to

2531
01:54:02,550 --> 01:54:06,315
the HIV and the drugs
would become ineffective.

2532
01:54:06,315 --> 01:54:08,460
So not taking your
drugs on this tight,

2533
01:54:08,460 --> 01:54:12,580
really close
schedule, you'd die.

2534
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:16,230
The drugs would become
ineffective and they would become

2535
01:54:16,230 --> 01:54:19,620
resistant to the drugs,

2536
01:54:19,620 --> 01:54:21,285
and you couldn't
take them anymore.

2537
01:54:21,285 --> 01:54:25,860
And the police had this policy
when they arrest somebody.

2538
01:54:25,860 --> 01:54:28,050
If you had any kind of
medication or drugs,

2539
01:54:28,050 --> 01:54:30,600
they didn't want medication
or drugs in the jails.

2540
01:54:30,600 --> 01:54:33,975
So as part of the intake
process into the jail,

2541
01:54:33,975 --> 01:54:36,210
they would take anything
you had on you and

2542
01:54:36,210 --> 01:54:38,835
throw it in the trash
and throw it away.

2543
01:54:38,835 --> 01:54:40,620
And so that was
one of the things

2544
01:54:40,620 --> 01:54:43,590
that we were able to talk
with him about is look,

2545
01:54:43,590 --> 01:54:45,480
you're killing people
when you do that to them,

2546
01:54:45,480 --> 01:54:47,340
and we were able to
get them to change

2547
01:54:47,340 --> 01:54:50,805
the intake process
in the jail system

2548
01:54:50,805 --> 01:54:56,640
to where if somebody
had AIDS medications,

2549
01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,130
they would stop
the intake process

2550
01:54:59,130 --> 01:55:00,420
and bring one of the jail

2551
01:55:00,420 --> 01:55:02,040
nurses in and look and see if

2552
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:04,830
those drugs were for AIDS
and verify if they were.

2553
01:55:04,830 --> 01:55:06,390
And then rather than
throwing them away,

2554
01:55:06,390 --> 01:55:09,180
the nurse would take custody

2555
01:55:09,180 --> 01:55:11,010
of the drugs and find out
what the schedule was they

2556
01:55:11,010 --> 01:55:13,380
needed to take them
and give them as

2557
01:55:13,380 --> 01:55:14,460
they needed them
while they were in

2558
01:55:14,460 --> 01:55:16,870
the jail, so they wouldn't die.

2559
01:55:20,250 --> 01:55:23,410
I mentioned about the Thrive.

2560
01:55:23,410 --> 01:55:26,770
The people who were at

2561
01:55:26,770 --> 01:55:28,210
the Thrive Workshops that were

2562
01:55:28,210 --> 01:55:30,250
coming in when I was
working at those.

2563
01:55:30,250 --> 01:55:32,470
In early days, it
was gay men that

2564
01:55:32,470 --> 01:55:34,690
were primarily as victims,

2565
01:55:34,690 --> 01:55:36,595
gay men and IV drug users.

2566
01:55:36,595 --> 01:55:39,340
And you still see that.

2567
01:55:39,340 --> 01:55:41,215
But that's changed over time.

2568
01:55:41,215 --> 01:55:45,385
And these Thrive Workshops.

2569
01:55:45,385 --> 01:55:49,030
There were Black women who had
had men who they'd had sex

2570
01:55:49,030 --> 01:55:53,860
with who were also secretly
having sex with other men.

2571
01:55:53,860 --> 01:55:57,760
And they had become
it was Black women

2572
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:01,225
with children who
were HIV positive.

2573
01:56:01,225 --> 01:56:03,640
But there was also this country,

2574
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:05,530
we arrest people and put them

2575
01:56:05,530 --> 01:56:07,885
in prison for small
amounts of marijuana.

2576
01:56:07,885 --> 01:56:09,790
There were young Black males

2577
01:56:09,790 --> 01:56:11,440
who had been arrested for things

2578
01:56:11,440 --> 01:56:14,200
like having a small amount

2579
01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:16,585
of marijuana and put
in the prison system,

2580
01:56:16,585 --> 01:56:18,910
and had been raped and made

2581
01:56:18,910 --> 01:56:21,865
HIV positive while
they were in prison.

2582
01:56:21,865 --> 01:56:23,350
That was three fourths of

2583
01:56:23,350 --> 01:56:25,355
the people who were at
these Thrive Workshops.

2584
01:56:25,355 --> 01:56:31,450
So the AIDs gave us
something to focus on.

2585
01:56:31,450 --> 01:56:33,490
That was something else
that we worked on,

2586
01:56:33,490 --> 01:56:35,680
I was trying to change
the prison system and

2587
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:38,950
the jail system and
make condoms available.

2588
01:56:38,950 --> 01:56:44,875
So I did all those things
that affected us in that way.

2589
01:56:44,875 --> 01:56:46,240
It personally affected me.

2590
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,235
I'm HIV positive.

2591
01:56:48,235 --> 01:56:52,135
I used to go get
tested once a year.

2592
01:56:52,135 --> 01:56:54,370
If you're a sexually
active gay person,

2593
01:56:54,370 --> 01:56:55,930
you should do that.

2594
01:56:55,930 --> 01:56:59,320
And for several years the
tests were always fine,

2595
01:56:59,320 --> 01:57:01,570
and I was not doing
any crazy stuff.

2596
01:57:01,570 --> 01:57:04,045
I wasn't using IV trucks

2597
01:57:04,045 --> 01:57:07,330
and thought that
things would be fine.

2598
01:57:07,330 --> 01:57:10,360
But at some point, and
I quit going as often.

2599
01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:12,910
And I had skipped two
or three years and

2600
01:57:12,910 --> 01:57:16,060
went to get a test one year.

2601
01:57:16,060 --> 01:57:17,440
And I thought I

2602
01:57:17,440 --> 01:57:19,210
haven't done this a
while I need to do that.

2603
01:57:19,210 --> 01:57:21,280
And that was a very
scary thing, by the way.

2604
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:23,050
You go get this test.

2605
01:57:23,050 --> 01:57:24,520
If you had any reason to

2606
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:26,905
believe that you might
be HIV positive,

2607
01:57:26,905 --> 01:57:29,410
going to get that test and
then waiting for the results.

2608
01:57:29,410 --> 01:57:31,240
The results used
to take two weeks.

2609
01:57:31,240 --> 01:57:33,130
So you had to wait for
two weeks afterwards,

2610
01:57:33,130 --> 01:57:36,130
and that was a lot of anxiety.

2611
01:57:36,130 --> 01:57:39,325
But anyway, I'd gone
two or three years

2612
01:57:39,325 --> 01:57:43,570
and went and got tested and
found I was HIV positive.

2613
01:57:43,570 --> 01:57:45,430
And it was a shock.

2614
01:57:45,430 --> 01:57:47,620
I had to adjust to that,

2615
01:57:47,620 --> 01:57:49,510
and it's affected
me personally and

2616
01:57:49,510 --> 01:57:52,090
that I have to take medications.

2617
01:57:52,090 --> 01:57:54,100
Medications are much better now.

2618
01:57:54,100 --> 01:57:55,270
They don't have some of

2619
01:57:55,270 --> 01:57:56,770
the horrible side
effects they used to

2620
01:57:56,770 --> 01:57:59,980
have and there's a
variety of medications.

2621
01:57:59,980 --> 01:58:01,180
So if you do build up a drug

2622
01:58:01,180 --> 01:58:03,560
resistance to one medication,

2623
01:58:03,870 --> 01:58:07,690
HIV becomes
resistance resistant,

2624
01:58:07,690 --> 01:58:10,045
you may be able to
take something else.

2625
01:58:10,045 --> 01:58:16,750
But the drugs most

2626
01:58:16,750 --> 01:58:18,865
of them affect your liver

2627
01:58:18,865 --> 01:58:21,820
because your liver processes
stuff that you take in.

2628
01:58:21,820 --> 01:58:24,310
Some of it can affect your
kidneys and other things,

2629
01:58:24,310 --> 01:58:25,915
and there are some side effects.

2630
01:58:25,915 --> 01:58:28,540
But I have to have that regular.

2631
01:58:28,540 --> 01:58:30,100
I go every six months.

2632
01:58:30,100 --> 01:58:31,570
I used to be every three,

2633
01:58:31,570 --> 01:58:32,890
but now I go every six months,

2634
01:58:32,890 --> 01:58:35,770
I have to have my
complete blood work up

2635
01:58:35,770 --> 01:58:36,970
done to check and be sure that

2636
01:58:36,970 --> 01:58:38,950
the drugs are not adversely
affecting my liver.

2637
01:58:38,950 --> 01:58:41,440
And in the back of
my mind, nowadays,

2638
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:45,295
HIV is mostly
manageable illness.

2639
01:58:45,295 --> 01:58:47,350
But there are still things

2640
01:58:47,350 --> 01:58:48,910
you have to deal
with because of it,

2641
01:58:48,910 --> 01:58:50,365
and some people do get

2642
01:58:50,365 --> 01:58:52,390
worse side effects
than others had.

2643
01:58:52,390 --> 01:58:55,540
If at some point it starts
impacting your liver

2644
01:58:55,540 --> 01:58:59,080
and you start having

2645
01:58:59,080 --> 01:59:01,030
liver damage from
taking the medications,

2646
01:59:01,030 --> 01:59:02,500
you have to stop taking them.

2647
01:59:02,500 --> 01:59:05,005
And so for anybody
who's HIV positive,

2648
01:59:05,005 --> 01:59:07,210
one of the things you know
is if you reach a point

2649
01:59:07,210 --> 01:59:09,850
where you can't take any of
the medications anymore,

2650
01:59:09,850 --> 01:59:12,055
then you have about two
years left to live.

2651
01:59:12,055 --> 01:59:15,295
So in a way,

2652
01:59:15,295 --> 01:59:17,080
that's a bad thing,
but in a way,

2653
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:18,910
it's a gift too,

2654
01:59:18,910 --> 01:59:23,365
because it puts you in a
position of appreciating life.

2655
01:59:23,365 --> 01:59:27,070
And most of us especially
when we're younger,

2656
01:59:27,070 --> 01:59:28,810
we don't think about

2657
01:59:28,810 --> 01:59:30,880
some of the stuff that's
most important to us.

2658
01:59:30,880 --> 01:59:33,565
We get worried about
paying our bills and

2659
01:59:33,565 --> 01:59:36,760
whatever it is that we do
on a day to day basis,

2660
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:37,960
and we lose track sometimes

2661
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:39,220
of what's most important to us.

2662
01:59:39,220 --> 01:59:45,265
And when you are in touch
with your mortality,

2663
01:59:45,265 --> 01:59:48,520
it helps you refocus on
what's most important in life

2664
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:49,885
and be sure that you

2665
01:59:49,885 --> 01:59:51,790
do the things that are
important in life,

2666
01:59:51,790 --> 01:59:54,040
that you're doing something
that you want to do.

2667
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:57,020
So that's a good side of it.

2668
01:59:57,330 --> 02:00:01,630
So I rambled there with
the answer to that,

2669
02:00:01,630 --> 02:00:02,860
[OVERLAPPING] but
it's had an impact

2670
02:00:02,860 --> 02:00:05,350
in a lot of different ways.

2671
02:00:05,350 --> 02:00:07,570
I don't know if you
were going to ask

2672
02:00:07,570 --> 02:00:09,565
about the AIDS Quilt or not.

2673
02:00:09,565 --> 02:00:12,370
>> Yes, actually. Our question

2674
02:00:12,370 --> 02:00:13,660
was to talk about your work with

2675
02:00:13,660 --> 02:00:15,745
David Greer on the
main project Quilt.

2676
02:00:15,745 --> 02:00:18,385
>> And I mentioned it
because it's connected.

2677
02:00:18,385 --> 02:00:21,865
And that's the names
project Quilt.

2678
02:00:21,865 --> 02:00:23,980
There was a guy out in

2679
02:00:23,980 --> 02:00:26,140
San Francisco that came
up with this idea to make

2680
02:00:26,140 --> 02:00:27,970
a Quilt with the panels that

2681
02:00:27,970 --> 02:00:31,430
were memorialized that
people had died from AIDS.

2682
02:00:31,430 --> 02:00:33,405
Which is a really cool idea.

2683
02:00:33,405 --> 02:00:36,285
I don't know how he
ever came up with that.

2684
02:00:36,285 --> 02:00:40,345
But the Quilt,

2685
02:00:40,345 --> 02:00:44,440
I've helped make panels for
some friends that we put on

2686
02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:47,320
the Quilt and other people put

2687
02:00:47,320 --> 02:00:48,370
panels from all over

2688
02:00:48,370 --> 02:00:50,875
the United States and all
over the world now, too.

2689
02:00:50,875 --> 02:00:54,640
And it started the names
project was in San Francisco,

2690
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:56,080
and the Quilt was
in San Francisco.

2691
02:00:56,080 --> 02:00:57,580
But there was this really strong

2692
02:00:57,580 --> 02:01:01,000
names project chapter
here in Atlanta.

2693
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:03,490
And as the Quilt got
bigger and it got to be

2694
02:01:03,490 --> 02:01:06,130
harder to move it around and
display it and store it.

2695
02:01:06,130 --> 02:01:07,885
It's gigantic.

2696
02:01:07,885 --> 02:01:09,970
It takes a warehouse to store

2697
02:01:09,970 --> 02:01:12,520
this thing and a big warehouse.

2698
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:17,725
It in 1987, at the
March in Washington,

2699
02:01:17,725 --> 02:01:20,230
they displayed the Quilt
on the mall in Washington.

2700
02:01:20,230 --> 02:01:21,970
The big grassy mall.

2701
02:01:21,970 --> 02:01:24,565
It won't fit there
anymore. It's too big.

2702
02:01:24,565 --> 02:01:26,005
They couldn't display
it there now.

2703
02:01:26,005 --> 02:01:29,155
It's been too big to
fit there for 10 years.

2704
02:01:29,155 --> 02:01:32,785
Sadly, because so many
people have panels on it.

2705
02:01:32,785 --> 02:01:37,000
But during the time period,

2706
02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:38,500
there was so many
people were dying

2707
02:01:38,500 --> 02:01:41,395
the first time that it was
going to come to Atlanta.

2708
02:01:41,395 --> 02:01:42,550
Atlanta panel had one of

2709
02:01:42,550 --> 02:01:45,790
the large gay communities
in the United States.

2710
02:01:45,790 --> 02:01:47,905
So they decided that
they were going to have

2711
02:01:47,905 --> 02:01:50,065
a display of it here in Atlanta.

2712
02:01:50,065 --> 02:01:52,780
And the first time
it was brought here.

2713
02:01:52,780 --> 02:01:54,160
It's been here two or three

2714
02:01:54,160 --> 02:01:56,350
times and it's here
permanently now,

2715
02:01:56,350 --> 02:02:00,640
but it was at the
World Congress Center.

2716
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:02,830
It was just big huge space,

2717
02:02:02,830 --> 02:02:05,230
and they had the Quilt there,

2718
02:02:05,230 --> 02:02:07,165
and there was plans to have it.

2719
02:02:07,165 --> 02:02:09,190
David and I volunteered.

2720
02:02:09,190 --> 02:02:10,360
They needed volunteers to

2721
02:02:10,360 --> 02:02:13,375
help work on the
display of the Quilt.

2722
02:02:13,375 --> 02:02:14,860
So it was there
through a weekend.

2723
02:02:14,860 --> 02:02:16,450
It was there all day

2724
02:02:16,450 --> 02:02:18,850
Saturday and Sunday
through a weekend.

2725
02:02:18,850 --> 02:02:21,190
And we both volunteered,

2726
02:02:21,190 --> 02:02:24,520
and they wanted everybody
to dress in white.

2727
02:02:24,520 --> 02:02:26,590
The volunteers are all white,

2728
02:02:26,590 --> 02:02:28,870
and then they're all the
color and the Quilt.

2729
02:02:28,870 --> 02:02:31,480
And I'm not quite sure
why that was big.

2730
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:33,730
So we had white shorts
and white T-shirts

2731
02:02:33,730 --> 02:02:36,670
on and we had volunteered.

2732
02:02:36,670 --> 02:02:39,400
We had lots of friends

2733
02:02:39,400 --> 02:02:42,100
who had died and wanted to
be there for that reason.

2734
02:02:42,100 --> 02:02:44,575
And it just seemed like
an important thing to us.

2735
02:02:44,575 --> 02:02:46,300
Something brought

2736
02:02:46,300 --> 02:02:47,680
attention to all the
people who had died,

2737
02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:49,045
but it also was

2738
02:02:49,045 --> 02:02:50,680
a real amazing way

2739
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:53,620
to remember the people
who had died, too.

2740
02:02:53,620 --> 02:02:55,480
And we volunteered for

2741
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:57,880
a shift on Saturday
and a shift on Sunday.

2742
02:02:57,880 --> 02:03:00,730
I think they were three
or four hour long shifts,

2743
02:03:00,730 --> 02:03:02,335
probably four hours.

2744
02:03:02,335 --> 02:03:05,560
So we get there on the Saturday.

2745
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,195
And they say, Oh,

2746
02:03:07,195 --> 02:03:08,935
you're assigned to
the Georgia room.

2747
02:03:08,935 --> 02:03:09,970
So what this was,

2748
02:03:09,970 --> 02:03:13,000
they had this big main
body of the Quilt in

2749
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:17,140
the World Congress Center
and a huge was huge.

2750
02:03:17,140 --> 02:03:21,535
This is like a football
field size Quilt.

2751
02:03:21,535 --> 02:03:24,280
Panels that had been made over

2752
02:03:24,280 --> 02:03:28,090
the last year for people
who had died in Georgia,

2753
02:03:28,090 --> 02:03:30,490
and they had them
in a separate room.

2754
02:03:30,490 --> 02:03:32,080
And they were there,

2755
02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:33,850
so that people from
Georgia who were

2756
02:03:33,850 --> 02:03:35,890
here could go and
easily find those.

2757
02:03:35,890 --> 02:03:36,910
And at the end, they had

2758
02:03:36,910 --> 02:03:38,140
a ceremony where
they then joined

2759
02:03:38,140 --> 02:03:41,020
those to the rest of the Quilt.

2760
02:03:41,020 --> 02:03:43,480
And so they said, you're
in the Georgia room,

2761
02:03:43,480 --> 02:03:45,265
and we said, okay,

2762
02:03:45,265 --> 02:03:47,095
so we go to the Georgia room.

2763
02:03:47,095 --> 02:03:50,200
We were as volunteers,

2764
02:03:50,200 --> 02:03:51,820
what we were was monitors.

2765
02:03:51,820 --> 02:03:54,715
We were there to keep people
from stepping on the Quilt,

2766
02:03:54,715 --> 02:03:57,340
if somebody crazy came

2767
02:03:57,340 --> 02:03:59,560
in from trying to do
anything to damage it,

2768
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:01,930
and go get the security
people, whatever.

2769
02:04:01,930 --> 02:04:04,090
But they had boxes of clinics

2770
02:04:04,090 --> 02:04:06,955
everywhere this box
of clinics down here.

2771
02:04:06,955 --> 02:04:11,050
And they said, this is a
real emotional experience,

2772
02:04:11,050 --> 02:04:13,120
and you may have to to help

2773
02:04:13,120 --> 02:04:15,880
somebody take them to a seat
to sit down or talk to them.

2774
02:04:15,880 --> 02:04:18,055
They may need
somebody to talk to.

2775
02:04:18,055 --> 02:04:20,770
I don't think we knew
exactly what we were

2776
02:04:20,770 --> 02:04:23,650
volunteering for
when we volunteered.

2777
02:04:23,650 --> 02:04:27,325
But we worked in
that Georgia room,

2778
02:04:27,325 --> 02:04:29,680
and it was a steady stream of

2779
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:32,340
people coming through who were

2780
02:04:32,340 --> 02:04:34,260
looking for the quilt panels

2781
02:04:34,260 --> 02:04:37,620
from friends and
people who had died.

2782
02:04:37,620 --> 02:04:39,660
And it was four hours of

2783
02:04:39,660 --> 02:04:42,300
hundreds and hundreds
of people crying.

2784
02:04:42,300 --> 02:04:44,500
It was probably

2785
02:04:44,500 --> 02:04:47,590
the most intensely emotional
thing I've ever done.

2786
02:04:47,590 --> 02:04:53,140
I just literally
hundreds and hundreds

2787
02:04:53,140 --> 02:04:56,080
of people just a line
of people coming by,

2788
02:04:56,080 --> 02:04:57,775
crying for four hours.

2789
02:04:57,775 --> 02:05:03,970
And it was just
completely emotionally,

2790
02:05:03,970 --> 02:05:06,160
physically exhausted at
the end of that day.

2791
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:07,885
Leaving there, I
remember telling David,

2792
02:05:07,885 --> 02:05:11,005
I don't know if I can come
back tomorrow. We did.

2793
02:05:11,005 --> 02:05:12,490
We came back and told him, we

2794
02:05:12,490 --> 02:05:14,870
can't be in the
[LAUGHTER] Georgia Room.

2795
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:21,610
To this day, that's
still probably

2796
02:05:21,610 --> 02:05:24,625
the most intensely
emotional experience

2797
02:05:24,625 --> 02:05:28,700
one or two that I've
had in my life.